Bioware or Bethesda?

hooradiation · 14-12-2009 4:59pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I don't have an issue with the choice in game to hit the reporter who happens to be female by the player what ever gender they are playing.

I didn't bring the gender of the reporter into it the person who made that youtube clip did and relishes the fact saying getting to punch her in what they termed as a falcon punch was worth buying the game for. That's sick imho.

Well, i classed that whole "punching the reporter" bit as one of my favourite parts. I used to think that's because it was so unexpected based on the dialogue choice, but nope, turns out it's cos i harbour a desire to hit women and nothing else.

Thank Jesus you cleared that up.

sink · 14-12-2009 5:01pm

Falcon punch is Captain Falcons special move form the game 'Super smash bros'. Captain falcon was originally the main protagonist in the game F-Zero.

Burning Eclipse · 14-12-2009 5:03pm

sink wrote: »

Falcon punch is Captain Falcons special move form the game 'Super smash bros'. Captain falcon was originally the main protagonist in the game F-Zero.

See, I was right there on that definition, but there is an alternative, and by the looks of it, just as popular definition... as in the link.

Valmont · 14-12-2009 5:10pm

Sarky wrote: »

Why were all the dungeons and towns so samey?

I agree with you on the Dungeons but the towns were all completely different, replete with their own unique weather and architecture.

Sarky wrote: »

Why were there still too many f*cking mudcrabs?

I guess you loved spending hours being harassed by cliff racers in Morrowind. You can ignore mud crabs very easily.

Valmont · 14-12-2009 5:14pm

Jilm wrote: »

It really isn't.

Fair enough if you don't like it but you don't have a leg to stand on if you're saying that, objectively speaking, Oblivion was terrible.

The many many awards it won along with its huge sales would suggest otherwise.

Vegeta · 14-12-2009 5:16pm

sink wrote: »

Baldurs Gate 2 was only ever released on PC and Mac. Perhaps you are confusing it with Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance 1 & 2 which were developed exclusively for consoles and not by Bioware. Dark Alliance was a completely separate story and the gameplay was completely different being far more simplistic and dumbed down.

Ahhhhh I see, cos the love for Bauldrs Gate was surprising me a little. I thought it was only ok and not that great but of course I was playing the Dark Alliance game.

Thanks for clearing that up

Jilm · 14-12-2009 5:27pm

Valmont wrote: »

Fair enough if you don't like it but you don't have a leg to stand on if you're saying that, objectively speaking, Oblivion was terrible.

The many many awards it won along with its huge sales would suggest otherwise.

I didn't say it was terrible. I found it a distinctly average game.

It was a game I played through once and couldn't wait to finish. Every time I passed a demon gate, I thought "great, another near identical area to wade through again".

"Awards" don't mean much to me and I find objectivity often doesn't enter into these sorts of things. I found most people who raved about Oblivion were those who were relatively new to crpgs.

Nevyn · 14-12-2009 5:27pm

Dark Alliance for the xbox was a very different game, was good to break the kids into to co op play but it's very different from the pc Baldur's Gate.

TomCo · 14-12-2009 6:53pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I didn't bring the gender of the reporter into it the person who made that youtube clip did and relishes the fact saying getting to punch her in what they termed as a falcon punch was worth buying the game for. That's sick imho.

I didn't see the reporters gender mentioned anywhere in the video, or in the video description. Was it mentioned in the comments section?

Nevyn · 14-12-2009 6:59pm

I've played the game that NPC is female, and this thread is getting dragged off topic.
I made my point, Burning Eclipse got it as he'd missed the context which made the clip to me objectionable and then figured it out, so it's done as far as I am concerned unless you want to start another thread rather then dragging this one off topic further.

NeoKubrick · 14-12-2009 11:36pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

I've played the game that NPC is female, and this thread is getting dragged off topic.
I made my point, Burning Eclipse got it as he'd missed the context which made the clip to me objectionable and then figured it out, so it's done as far as I am concerned unless you want to start another thread rather then dragging this one off topic further.

You dragged this thread off-topic initially with a needless display of righteous indignation over your insistence on reading a definition which would qualify your display of indignation rather than reading what was actually explicit in the clip (the clip actually established usage by using Falcon's dialogue and a Falcon chant found in the Smash Bros games where the move 'Falcon Punch' originated). Women...

I digress.

hooradiation wrote:

Oh hey, is it time to pretend your utterly subjective views on a game are law?

Man i love it when that happens, it's not irritating in the slightest!

About less than a third of my previous post consisted of subjective views, and the rest, irrefutable facts. Everything isn't utterly subjective opinion: once one creates an argument to support his/her opinion, that argument is subject to scrutiny of its assumptions and logic. People only claim that every view is subjective and not law, because that is a license to say whatever they want without heavy constraints such as reality or logic: if no law exists, it's impossible to break/challenge/accept it. Fortunately, that is not the case. Understand the difference between subjective statements and objective. You'll thank me for it when you can post your banal cliche with impeccable and congruous timing. (!)

Now, where is Sarky?

hooradiation · 15-12-2009 3:24pm

NeoKubrick wrote: »

About less than a third of my previous post consisted of subjective views, and the rest, irrefutable facts. Everything isn't utterly subjective opinion: once one creates an argument to support his/her opinion, that argument is subject to scrutiny of its assumptions and logic. People only claim that every view is subjective and not law, because that is a license to say whatever they want without heavy constraints such as reality or logic: if no law exists, it's impossible to break/challenge/accept it. Fortunately, that is not the case. Understand the difference between subjective statements and objective. You'll thank me for it when you can post your banal cliche with impeccable and congruous timing. (!)

Now, where is Sarky?

wow, that's some pretentious drivel you've managed there.

The sad thing is you actually believe what you've written.

Valmont · 15-12-2009 6:18pm

Jilm wrote: »

It was a game I played through once and couldn't wait to finish. Every time I passed a demon gate, I thought "great, another near identical area to wade through again".

You don't have to go into the gates, I avoided them after I found them boring and repetitive- problem solved. Just clear the main quest and they will all disappear then you can play the diverse and interesting quests from the Dark Brotherhood, thieves guild, mages guild, fighters guild and the many random quests the game has to offer.

Nichololas · 15-12-2009 8:59pm

TomCo wrote: »

I vote for Black Isle to be added to the poll.

Black Isle must be added to the poll; Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale ..

Voted BioWare in the current poll; Baldurs Gate II and KOTOR 2 > Oblivion and Fallout3.

Still haven't played the first KOTOR, but I installed it this very week. Waiting for exams to finish to start it though.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

diatribe

*rolls d20 for protection against nerd-rage*

Jilm · 15-12-2009 9:22pm

Valmont wrote: »

You don't have to go into the gates, I avoided them after I found them boring and repetitive- problem solved. Just clear the main quest and they will all disappear then you can play the diverse and interesting quests from the Dark Brotherhood, thieves guild, mages guild, fighters guild and the many random quests the game has to offer.

If Oblivion is "a great RPG game" (as you claim), why would you power through the main quest in order to avoid content?

I didn't find the various guilds' quests particularly interesting. In Morrowind at least you could choose a house to side with which offered quests and added another dimension to the game.

sink · 15-12-2009 9:33pm

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

Black Isle must be added to the poll; Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale ..

Voted BioWare in the current poll; Baldurs Gate II and KOTOR 2 > Oblivion and Fallout3.

Still haven't played the first KOTOR, but I installed it this very week. Waiting for exams to finish to start it though.

*rolls d20 for protection against nerd-rage*

KOTOR 2 was developed by Obsidian, not Bioware.

If you were to add Black Isle to the poll, it should probably be Black Isle/Obsidian as when Interplay closed Black Isle most of the staff went on to form Obsidian. Obsidian also developed Neverwinter Nights 2.

Nichololas · 15-12-2009 9:36pm

sink wrote: »

KOTOR 2 was developed by Obsidian, not Bioware.

If you were to add Black Isle to the poll, it should probably be Black Isle/Obsidian as when Interplay closed Black Isle most of the staff went on to form Obsidian. Obsidian also developed Neverwinter Nights 2.

There's too much interbreeding between western-RPG development studios.

NeoKubrick · 16-12-2009 1:06am

hooradiation wrote: »

wow, that's some pretentious drivel you've managed there.

The sad thing is you actually believe what you've written.

Apology accepted.

Enlil_Nick wrote: »

*rolls d20 for protection against nerd-rage*

Woody Allen wept.

Valmont · 16-12-2009 4:25am

Jilm wrote: »

If Oblivion is "a great RPG game" (as you claim), why would you power through the main quest in order to avoid content?

I didn't find the various guilds' quests particularly interesting. In Morrowind at least you could choose a house to side with which offered quests and added another dimension to the game.

The main quest is minor compared to the other quests and clans and missions. I'm playing through at the moment and I have 22 hours clocked without taking one step toward the main quest. I'll leave it until the very end as it is far more rewarding when you are at a high level.

You're grasping at straws if you have to mention the house quests as an advantage over Oblivion- what about all of the Daedric shrine quests? They "added another dimension" and were all very different from each other, not to mention they were the source of some of the best artifacts in the game.

My gripe here is with the bioware fanboyism that somehow necessitates an unfounded and strong dislike of Oblivion, apparently, because it's popular and new people to RPGs seem to like it. We have one guy saying "there are only like 50 npcs in the imperial city, most of whom are guards", eh sorry, that's just not even true.
I've played and completed BG, NWN, KOTOR, and KOTOR2 (NWN twice) I really enjoyed them but I much prefer Bethesda's single hack/slash approach over having a team I have to organise and command. It's fine to have preferences based on opinion but it's plain ignorance to try and push these opinions as an objective condemnation of an game that won many awards. Ignore them if you want but I trust the amalgamated opinions of most of the major gaming newspapers and magazines.

I'm starting to think the Bioware fanboys are just bitter that Bethesda brought the RPG genre to a much wider audience with Oblivion.

Seifer · 16-12-2009 2:37pm

Valmont wrote: »

My gripe here is with the bioware fanboyism that somehow necessitates an unfounded and strong dislike of Oblivion, apparently, because it's popular and new people to RPGs seem to like it. We have one guy saying "there are only like 50 npcs in the imperial city, most of whom are guards", eh sorry, that's just not even true.
I've played and completed BG, NWN, KOTOR, and KOTOR2 (NWN twice) I really enjoyed them but I much prefer Bethesda's single hack/slash approach over having a team I have to organise and command.

Awww you used the word fanboy and your argument lost all merit

I loved BG and BG2. I got Morrowind for the xbox because it looked like it would be right up my alley. Magic, swords, elves, all the stuff you want from an rpg.
However I was sorely disappointed. The leveling system is the worst I have ever seen. Forcing you to jump around everywhere like an idiot to level. Or repeatedly cast the same spell. Initially I was impressed by the scale of the world but the more you explored the more I realised how samey and bland it was. Different NPC's with the same voice and lines everywhere didn't help. I played until a point that I had gotten stupidly powerful by raiding some vault in one of the Houses and the main quest was asking me to traverse half the world for the next step.

So I steered clear of Oblivion as a result but ended up receiving it as a Christmas present for the PC. So I said I'll give it a shot. Same terrible leveling system. Same repeating NPCs. Same boring story. Going to every town to do the same predictable quests to get in the mages guild. Oh yes and a flaw that's in both; the combat. You can be kiting an enemy, shooting him with your bow and he'll inevitably get stuck in something and you can shoot him to your hearts content, it's no fun. Melee weapons are horrible in first-person (and third-person).

wrote:

It's fine to have preferences based on opinion but it's plain ignorance to try and push these opinions as an objective condemnation of an game that won many awards. Ignore them if you want but I trust the amalgamated opinions of most of the major gaming newspapers and magazines.

I'm starting to think the Bioware fanboys are just bitter that Bethesda brought the RPG genre to a much wider audience with Oblivion.

First off, gaming newspapers and magazines are trash. They don't seem to understand that if you are using a 10 point scale, that each number is equidistant. 10 is supposed to be unachieveable, the perfect game and you see them bandied about like nobody's business. 5 is the median between 1 and 10, that's what average games should get. Also add in the fact that they're corrupt as hell.

Loads of awards mean nothing. Especially if they're from console gamers who have nothing better to compare it to.

Why would a Bioware fan (this statement is stupid btw, we're not talking about football teams) give a toss if Bethesda brought RPG's to the masses? That would mean more RPG's would get developed which would benefit all RPG fans (of course they'd be dumbed down for consoles but that's for another day).

BlitzKrieg · 16-12-2009 3:27pm

Black Isle for life!

TomCo · 16-12-2009 6:03pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Black Isle for life!

Represent!

Valmont · 17-12-2009 1:44am

Seifer wrote: »

Forcing you to jump around everywhere like an idiot to level.

If you wanted to hop around like an idiot to level up, that was your choice. I never did and got on fine.

Seifer wrote: »

Same terrible leveling system.

I downloaded Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul to sort out the leveling problem. Fixed very easily.

Seifer wrote: »

Going to every town to do the same predictable quests

You obviously didn't play very far if that's the best you can come out with. From hunting the Unicorn for Hircine to sneaking around the blindfolded monks for the thieves guild, the quests in Oblivion were anything but predictable. Funny you should say predictable, I distinctly remember many of the NWN quests to be of the "go here, kill them, bring me this type", predictable in form but enjoyable nonetheless.

I think you start frothing at the mouth instead of arguing at this point:

Seifer wrote: »

First off, gaming newspapers and magazines are trash.

That's it, tar dozens of reputable (some not so reputable) gaming magazines as trash. Are you so arrogant as to assume better judgement than that of many gaming journalists? Does the sheer weight in numbers of positive Oblivion reviews not strike you as indicative of its quality? Obviously not, you seem to have made your mind up regardless.

Seifer wrote: »

Also add in the fact that they're corrupt as hell.

Ridiculous generalisation:rolleyes:

Seifer wrote: »

Loads of awards mean nothing. Especially if they're from console gamers who have nothing better to compare it to.

Many PC gaming magazines gave Oblivion great reviews. I'll ignore your mad comment about the console gamers having nothing good to compare it to. The ridiculousness of that statement speaks for itself.

So what we have are some generalised criticisms, backed up by hysterical condescension with no substance. I can't help you if you're only willing to look at the few negative points in an otherwise brilliant game.

Seifer · 17-12-2009 2:00am

Valmont wrote: »

If you wanted to hop around like an idiot to level up, that was your choice. I never did and got on fine.

How else do you suggest to level acrobatics or whatever the skill was called? Taking fall damage did it too I think. So jumping off high things and healing was equally as effective and equally stupid.

Valmont wrote: »

I downloaded Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul to sort out the leveling problem. Fixed very easily.

So having to download unofficial mods to fix a game doesn't strike you as a little odd?

Valmont wrote: »

You obviously didn't play very far if that's the best you can come out with. From hunting the Unicorn for Hircine to sneaking around the blindfolded monks for the thieves guild, the quests in Oblivion were anything but predictable. Funny you should say predictable, I distinctly remember many of the NWN quests to be of the "go here, kill them, bring me this type", predictable in form but enjoyable nonetheless.

I said I didn't play that far but if a game isn't doing anything to keep me playing, why should I push on through in the hopes that it will get better?

Valmont wrote: »

That's it, tar dozens of reputable (some not so reputable) gaming magazines as trash. Are you so arrogant as to assume better judgement than that of many gaming journalists? Does the sheer weight in numbers of positive Oblivion reviews not strike you as indicative of its quality? Obviously not, you seem to have made your mind up regardless.

This is weird. So if you disliked something but read enough reviews telling you it was good, you would like it?
I'm entitled to my opinion and it's not like I'm the only one holding it. Just because someone is paid to review games doesn't mean their opinion of any given game has more merit than mine, it just has a wider audience.

Valmont wrote: »

Ridiculous generalisation:rolleyes:

Sweeping generalisations make debates more fun

And tbh there are plenty of examples in existence of publishers demanding certain minimum scores for exclusivity etc.

Valmont wrote: »

So what we have are some generalised criticisms, backed up by hysterical condescension with no substance. I can't help you if you're only willing to look at the few negative points in an otherwise brilliant game.

Maybe you just have a higher threshold for these particular negative points but for me they're game breakers. They make the game not fun. And maybe there is a great game in there somewhere but for me it's not worth wading through all the problems to find it.

Valmont · 17-12-2009 2:48am

Seifer wrote: »

?
This is weird. So if you disliked something but read enough reviews telling you it was good, you would like it?

No. I would put my dislike of the game down to personal preference and not condemn it outright based on my own individual experience.

Seifer wrote: »

I'm entitled to my opinion and it's not like I'm the only one holding it. Just because someone is paid to review games doesn't mean their opinion of any given game has more merit than mine, it just has a wider audience.

That's just it, it isn't one person being paid- there are dozens of them saying how good Oblivion is. If it was one reviewer I wouldn't have mentioned it for what you just said.

Seifer wrote: »

Maybe you just have a higher threshold for these particular negative points but for me they're game breakers. They make the game not fun. And maybe there is a great game in there somewhere but for me it's not worth wading through all the problems to find it.

I agree entirely.

I just don't like seeing games getting a bashing as "oh that's ****" when the reasons are usually arbitrary.

All I have to do now is buy Dragonage and if that is as good as NWN, I may have to switch my vote.

Seifer · 17-12-2009 3:03am

Valmont wrote: »

All I have to do now is buy Dragonage and if that is as good as NWN, I may have to switch my vote.

I have it installed and all the free DLC ready to go, just the matter of my last two exams to do tomorrow and it'll be a Dragony Christmas

oceanclub · 17-12-2009 10:59am

Has to be Bethesda. Am currently playing Dragon Ages: Origins (well, while i can tear myself from L4D2) and while enjoying it, things like NPCs standing still or remaining in the same location just seem so antiquated if you're an Oblivion junkie.

P.

Venom · 17-12-2009 12:52pm

Bethesda games do suck you into the game world alot more than Bioware with NPCs moving around or going into their homes at night time or during a dust storm unlike the static NPCs and time zones that Bioware games offer.

The Bethesda game world's also feel so much more real by the fact you can wander around a full 3D landscape where Bioware games limit you to a series of connected area's.

Bethesda games win by a landslide in terms of music as well imho.

Bethesda also do a better job in melding good/evil choices the player can make unlike Bioware total angel or complete wanker choices. DLC options also are in Bethesda favour as while not all of it is amazing its still way better than the paltry DLC offerings Bioware offer the player.

Bioware pulls ahead slightly story wise tho in the how epic the story feels stakes.

NeoKubrick · 21-12-2009 3:08pm

Seifer wrote: »

(this statement is stupid btw, we're not talking about football teams)

Seifer wrote: »

Loads of awards mean nothing. Especially if they're from console gamers who have nothing better to compare it to.

Seifer wrote: »

Awww you used the word fanboy and your argument lost all merit

Priceless self-ownership; as if anyone who cared what platform a game has been released on. Obviously, you do, but it's not accurate to implicitly claim that console gamers haven't played quality RPGs. They have, in mass; you're ignorant of the genre to claim otherwise, which you already have.

You are correct that awards and magazine scores aren't objective indicators of success in game design. Good awards and score averages neither indicate a good or bad game, vice-versa. You're not correct in trying to qualify some awards and not others, though.

Seifer wrote: »

Magic, swords, elves, all the stuff you want from an rpg.

No, that's all the stuff you want from an RPG. Whereas, those that understand what the initialism stands for, Role-playing game, understand what they want from an RPG game: the ability to act freely in a world of set rules. Your criticisms of Morrowind and Oblivion are not worth the time to negate (you can resolve this, by reading my previous posts on the series in this thread).

Seifer · 21-12-2009 3:26pm

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Priceless self-ownership; as if anyone who cared what platform a game has been released on.

Since you're trying too hard, I think it's only fair to highlight this nonsense.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Obviously, you do, but it's not accurate to implicitly claim that console gamers haven't played quality RPGs. They have, in mass; you're ignorant of the genre to claim otherwise, which you already have.

In a comparison of Bioware and Bethesda, which is what the quote you referenced refers to, console gamers are not going to have played Bioware's best RPG's.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

You are correct that awards and magazine scores aren't objective indicators of success in game design. Good awards and score averages neither indicate a good or bad game, vice-versa. You're not correct in trying to qualify some awards and not others, though.

Lol? All awards are not equal I'm afraid. No one cares what The Sun's Best Game of the Week (may not be an actual award) is but publishers/developers will proudly adorn PC Gamer's Game of the Month badge on the front of their product.

NeoKubrick wrote: »

No, that's all the stuff you want from an RPG. Whereas, those that understand what the initialism stands for, Role-playing game, understand what they want from an RPG game: the ability to act freely in a world of set rules.

No, that's what you want from an RPG. See what I did there?
I find aimless wandering boring. That's why I prefer the more linear efforts of the BG series

NeoKubrick wrote: »

Your criticisms of Morrowind and Oblivion are not worth the time to negate (you can resolve this, by reading my previous posts on the series in this thread).

Oh no! Please negate my criticisms!

Bioware or Bethesda?

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