Egyptian/US Barrier

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

Wasn't the existing natural Egyptian/US Barrier good enough?:D

I see what you mean....

callig

Abu Zeid Confirms Egypt Installing Wall Along Gaza Border

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57397

wes

I reckon this will make Mubarak even more unpopular than he already is in Egypt, but then again I take it the man could care less about the will of the people, and the US will continue to fund the the brutal Egyptian regime, showing that there support for democracy, isn't worth a whole lot.

FlutterinBantam

What evidence do you have to call it a "brutal regime"?

Overheal

Ive heard of my Husseins and my Mugabes but Mubarak doesnt ring a bell.

hmm fair enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosni_Mubarak#Twenty-eight_years_of_Emergency_Law_rule
Legitimacy in question. But Brutal?

yet also,

Mubarak and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Mubarak has very strong views on the issue of Israel and the Palestinians. He is generally supportive of Palestinian groups such as Fatah. As he has been involved intensely in the Arab League, he has supported Arab efforts to achieve a lasting peace in the region. The current position of the league is that which was endorsed at the Beirut Summit, on 28 March 2002. At the summit the league adopted the Arab Peace Initiative,[9] a Saudi-inspired peace plan for the Arab–Israeli conflict. The initiative offered full normalization of the relations with Israel. In exchange, Israel was demanded to withdraw from all occupied territories, including the Golan Heights, to recognize an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital, as well as a "just solution" for the Palestinian refugees. The Peace Initiative was again endorsed at 2007 in the Riyadh Summit. In July 2007, the Arab League sent a mission, consisting of the Jordanian and Egyptian foreign ministers, to Israel to promote the initiative. The mission was welcomed with reservations by Israel.[citation needed]

On 19 June 2008, Egypt brokered “lull” or pause in hostilities between Israel and Hamas went into effect.[10] The term “lull” is a translation of the Arabic term Tahdia.[11] According to The New York Times, neither side fully respected the terms of the cease-fire.[12]

The agreement required Hamas to end rocket attacks on Israel and to enforce the lull throughout Gaza. In exchange, Hamas expected the blockade to end, commerce in Gaza to resume, and truck shipments to be restored to 2005 levels, which was between 500 and 600 trucks per day.[12][13] Israel tied easing of the blockade to a reduction in rocket fire and gradually re-opened supply lines and permitted around 90 daily truck shipments to enter Gaza, up from around 70 per day.[14] Hamas criticized Israel for its continued blockade[15] while Israel accused Hamas of continued weapons smuggling via tunnels to Egypt and pointed to continued rocket attacks.[12]

When conflict again ensued however Egypt's foreign minister, while condemning the Israeli offensive, stated that Hamas had brought it upon itself.

In 2009, Mubarak's government banned the Cairo Anti-war Conference, which has criticised his lack of action against Israel.[16]

In fact he sounds from this to be quite supportive of lifting the Blockade, but he cant do that while Israel is accusing Egypt of supplying Hamas through smuggling tunnels.

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What evidence do you have to call it a "brutal regime"?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/egypt
Treatment of citizens, minoritys etc.....

wes

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What evidence do you have to call it a "brutal regime"?

Your joking right?!?

Here are some examples:
Egypt: Mass Arrests and Torture in Sinai
Woman dies in Egypt police raid

Just a couple of examples, but I think it fair to say that Mubarak is a odious dictator.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

Your joking right?!?

Here are some examples:
Egypt: Mass Arrests and Torture in Sinai
Woman dies in Egypt police raid

Just a couple of examples, but I think it fair to say that Mubarak is a odious dictator.

The Pregnant Woman example is Hyperbole. ****, worse happens in the US frankly. Such things are accidents, not evidence of brutal dictatorship.

Dont get me wrong, the Mass Arrests etc. are not above the table. But lets leave the pregger tragedies out of it.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

The Pregnant Woman example is Hyperbole. ****, worse happens in the US frankly. Such things are accidents, not evidence of brutal dictatorship.

Dont get me wrong, the Mass Arrests etc. are not above the table. But lets leave the pregger tragedies out of it.

If what happened to the pregnant Woman was a isolated incident you would have a point, but here is another example:

YouTube exposes torture in Egypt

The story about the pregnant Woman was just an example of the casual brutality of the Mubarak regime, which doesn't value the lives of the people it rules.

Overheal

Fair enough. But more on the topic of Gaza, it seems to be aimed at resolving the conlict [erecting the tunnel border]

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Fair enough. But more on the topic of Gaza, it seems to be aimed at resolving the conlict [erecting the tunnel border]

I don't really see how it will help. The siege is causing a lot of suffering for the Palestinians, and you can be sure that if Israeli's were put under a similar siege, it would be considered completely unacceptable. Bringing people to the brink of stravation will only increase resentment and hatred. NowThe tunnels, which to be fair are used to smuggle weapons, are also used to bring essential goods into Gaza, and it is pretty hypocritical for the US to be involved in this barrier, considering they arm both the odious Egyptian and Israeli regimes, who are guilty of all kind of Human Rights abuses and murder of innocent civilians. So as long as the siege exists, I don't see there being any kind of chance of peace.

Overheal

NowThe tunnels, which to be fair are used to smuggle weapons,

It doesnt matter what else they smuggle through those tunnels, whether it be food, medical supplies or gumdrops. The fact that there are Weapons being smuggled through is enough cause to erect this shield-wall. Its also Egypts Perogative how they wish to control their own border.

Food and Medical Supplies are for the UN to suss out. And Israel will not let them through [If at all/In sufficient numbers] while Hamas continues to gather weapons for further "Retaliation". I don't like that. Im just saying, that appears to be the way it is.

Dont forget the US also assists the Palestinian Authority. So its not as though the US is punishing Palestine. The uncomfortable truth is none of us are entirely sure what the hell is going on in Gaza, despite feeling like we have pretty good ideas.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

It doesnt matter what else they smuggle through those tunnels, whether it be food, medical supplies or gumdrops. The fact that there are Weapons being smuggled through is enough cause to erect this shield-wall. Its also Egypts Perogative how they wish to control their own border.

If, ample food and supplies were being let through, I would agree with you, but there is a siege going on, and the half starving of 1.5 million people are being affected by it.

Overheal wrote: »

Food and Medical Supplies are for the UN to suss out. And Israel will not let them through [If at all/In sufficient numbers] while Hamas continues to gather weapons for further "Retaliation". I don't like that. Im just saying, that appears to be the way it is.

Yes, and no action is being taken against there collective punishment of all of Gaza, so I can't blame the Palestinians for smuggling stuff through. Let not pretend that the US or the EU for that matter do not have options or anything, they could easily put pressure on Israel to end the siege, but choose not to. I am all for stopping Hamas getting weapons, but why not steps to make Israel end the siege? Seems to me the same old Western double standard. The lives of Palestinians are considered worthless by Western governments and Israeli's are the only ones with a right to have weapons, despite the fact they are happily stealing Palestinian land even during there so called "freeze" (which exempts occupied East Jerusalem completely).

The simple fact of the matter, is that Egyptian regime are just as responsible as Israel for the situation in Gaza, and without the tunnels things will get worse, unless the siege is lifted. Now Egypt could open there borders to let in Humanitarian aid and they could also get US assitance (i am sure they would help as they seem to have no issue helping to build the new barrier) to search all cargo going into Gaza, and end the Humanitarian crisis, and then give them the moral capital to clamp down on the tunnels and also prevent weapons going in via the normal crossing.

Now weapons will always get in, but I am sure they could stop the majority, and not you know half starve 1.5 million people, half of whom are children, which is a obscence act of state terrorism imho,

Overheal wrote: »

Dont forget the US also assists the Palestinian Authority. So its not as though the US is punishing Palestine. The uncomfortable truth is none of us are entirely sure what the hell is going on in Gaza, despite feeling like we have pretty good ideas.

Actually, the UN and Human Rights groups actually do know what going on, and the US is punished the people of Palestine with its one sided support of Israel and its complicity in the siege of Gaza, the US is not a neutral party in this, they are very much on Israel side, and could care less about the suffering of the people of Gaza, as evidenced by the complicity in the seige of Gaza.