Garmin free update/OSM

Tragedy

Satnav has: City Navigator Europe NT 2010.10 Limited, Deluxe All Regions, Apr 09

Free update available: nüMaps Onetime™ City Navigator® Europe NT

Is it worth updating(given that my free update runs out in 12 days)?

Also, has anyone used OSM on their garmin and how did they find it?

mrmac

Heck, it's a free update, so you might as well.
Latest map is 2010.20.

Can't help you with OSM, as I haven't had the need to try them, but apparently there not bad, and getting better all the time. Plus they're free!

robinph

The OSM maps look a lot better than they used to be. I've not made use of their routing as yet but have them installed and ready to try out. There will no doubt still be blank spots and things missing in the OSM maps, but that is also the case for the Garmin ones as well.

Alun

robinph wrote: »

The OSM maps look a lot better than they used to be. I've not made use of their routing as yet but have them installed and ready to try out. There will no doubt still be blank spots and things missing in the OSM maps, but that is also the case for the Garmin ones as well.

I'm tempted to try them out too, and one of the things that might persuade me is if the roads are more accurately 'classified', for want of a better word. From what I remember playing with some ancient PPC based satnav s/w called Mapopolis a few years ago, that also used Navteq maps, the roads were classified into speed ranges, and you could click on a road and it would tell you what speed range it was assigned to, and there were a few real surprises in there leading to some crazy routings. Now, I don't know whether OSM even classify roads at all, or how these get translated when converted to Garmin format, but it could be interesting to perform some routing experiments with both sets of maps.

robinph

Not sure how the OSM road classifications would translate to what the Garmin routing system recognises, but you'r still liable to find problems if one segment of a road may have been tagged differently by a different person. I have only got as far as looking at the updated OSM maps in MapSourse so far and they look vastly different in the sections I was looking at around Dublin, it was a fairly old version that I previously had loaded in MapSource though.

I've got the OSM maps setup in SportsTracks for logging my running training as well, which it gets the latest versions direct from OSM rather than a local download to the PC, and those have been pretty good for where ever I've been running round with my 405 recently.

IrlJidel

Alun wrote: »

I'm tempted to try them out too, and one of the things that might persuade me is if the roads are more accurately 'classified', for want of a better word. From what I remember playing with some ancient PPC based satnav s/w called Mapopolis a few years ago, that also used Navteq maps, the roads were classified into speed ranges, and you could click on a road and it would tell you what speed range it was assigned to, and there were a few real surprises in there leading to some crazy routings. Now, I don't know whether OSM even classify roads at all, or how these get translated when converted to Garmin format, but it could be interesting to perform some routing experiments with both sets of maps.

You can try OSM routing online at http://www.openrouteservice.org/
Or download and install a routable garmin map from http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php and try the routing in mapsource or your gps device.

You can read how we map Irelands road classification to the osm schema here:

OSM does support maxspeed tags.

Translating OSM data into a garmin img format all has to be reversed engineered and a tool called mkgmap is most usually used for this purpose. I don't know if maxspeed tag support has been added to mkgmap but I do see a discussion on the mkgmap list here

If you find any roads that are mistagged you can edit the OSM data yourself and either use mkgmap to build a garmin map yourself or download from garmin.na1400.info site a week or two later.

ceret

I'm a bit of an OSM head myself (my OSM username is rorym). However I've only used a Garmin (with OSM maps) once, so I don't know much about how Garmin does it.

One advantage of OSM is that it's updated frequently, and, most imporantly Ireland is being mapped by Irish people. People living here who know the roads, and know the way the Irish system works (or doesn't ), so it's more likely to be 'correct' in that way.

You can always pop into the OSM-IE channel on #osm-ie on OFTC, if you have any questions, but be patient, lots of people are idlying and can't reply straight away.

IrlJidel

As it's near the end of the year here's an animation of how Ireland is getting maped over time.
http://www.geofabrik.de/gallery/history/index.html#ireland

There's a worldwide animation showing OSM activity for 2008. Looks really really cool. Look how active Germany is, they are down to mapping trees and benches at this stage ;-)

I believe there should be a 2009 version at Easter.

http://www.vimeo.com/2598878

hugoline

Tragedy wrote: »

Also, has anyone used OSM on their garmin and how did they find it?

I have been playing with and using the OSM maps 'transformed' by Lambertus (follow installble link from IrlJidel) for a good year now (even before the routing was 'hacked') on my eTrex HCx.

For the major routes they can be more up to date (i.e. when new roads open) than the official Garmin releases.

Before the CN Europe 2009 came out the OSM contained more backroads than the Garmin version, but over the last two updates the Garmin ones have a pretty decent coverage.

For the routing part though I have found them only about 98% usable. The problem is some R roads are not connected properly in OSM or are missing and hence the routing won't work as efficiently as it could. I try to correct stuff as I go along (If I remember when back in front of a computer ). For Motorways and national roads I haven't found any problems.

On the other hand I use the GPS mainly for hiking, and there they are unbeatable if some tracks are entered already.

Overall I just load both, the CN Europe and the OSM map and then switch maps as I need them on the go.

sesswhat

IrlJidel wrote: »

Look how active Germany is, they are down to mapping trees and benches and this stage ;-)

If they are getting desparate, maybe we should organise OSM tours and get a few coachloads of them over here.

IrlJidel

hugoline wrote: »

For the routing part though I have found them only about 98% usable. The problem is some R roads are not connected properly in OSM or are missing and hence the routing won't work as efficiently as it could. I try to correct stuff as I go along (If I remember when back in front of a computer ). For Motorways and national roads I haven't found any problems.

If you dont have the time or are not comfortable editing the map (ie I'm still afraid to edit anything on the Red Cow roundabout), it is possible to report bugs by leaving notes on the map so that mappers can try to fix for you.

http://openstreetbugs.appspot.com/?lon=-8.742451354426576&lat=53.29781043324522&zoom=8

On the other hand I use the GPS mainly for hiking, and there they are unbeatable if some tracks are entered already.

Getting hiking trails was the reason I got involved in OSM as there was nothing available even commercially. Hiking trails are harder to map and you can't just drive along on a quad-bike ;-) , so those tracks involve sweat and a lot of time. Yahoo imagery is low res in most rural areas so we cant even map from the comfort of an armchair. So if there is any hikers out there please upload your gps tracks!

mackerski

IrlJidel wrote: »

(ie I'm still afraid to edit anything on the Red Cow roundabout),

If you think it's still a roundabout then that's probably just as well

Alun

IrlJidel wrote: »

Or download and install a routable garmin map from http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php and try the routing in mapsource or your gps device.

I just tried that by selecting a bunch of tiles for the UK & Ireland, and downloaded both the gmapsupp.img file and the Mapsource version. After installation, all Mapsource shows is a blank square .. any ideas? The gmapsupp.img file seems to work fine on my nuvi 760 though.

hugoline

Alun wrote: »

I just tried that by selecting a bunch of tiles for the UK & Ireland, and downloaded both the gmapsupp.img file and the Mapsource version. After installation, all Mapsource shows is a blank square .. any ideas? The gmapsupp.img file seems to work fine on my nuvi 760 though.

Change the detail level to medium or higher and zoom in

(Not all levels are rendered IIRC)

If it still doesn't work, select fewer tiles (the red ones produce errors and should NOT be selected at all). The Ireland tiles worked fine for me the last time I tried.

Tragedy

The draw of OSM to me is being able to edit things myself(especially speed limits). Garmins two updates a year doesn't do it for me when the roads I'm driving on are the ones still being constructed(M7/N7/M7 S.R.R. mostly)

mackerski

Alun wrote: »

After installation, all Mapsource shows is a blank square .. any ideas?

As Hugoline mentions, you won't see detail until you zoom in. Technically, this is because the overview map is generated, but without anything drawn in it, giving just the tile outlines. As this is a fairly cosmetic issue, the reverse-engineers are concentrating on more significant matters (especially the address search, which you're likely to find very spotty).

Alun

mackerski wrote: »

As Hugoline mentions, you won't see detail until you zoom in. Technically, this is because the overview map is generated, but without anything drawn in it, giving just the tile outlines. As this is a fairly cosmetic issue, the reverse-engineers are concentrating on more significant matters (especially the address search, which you're likely to find very spotty).

Turns out my Mapsource installation had got fubared after a gazillion upgrades and messing about with custom maps over the years. None of my other custom maps were displaying either as it happened. Uninstalled everything from Garmin, wiped the registry of all traces of Garmin stuff and started again. All my maps are displaying fine now

Krusty_Clown

These are fantastic for my immediate area. I'm heading to Roscommon town over Christmas where the OSM maps are very poor. what is the simplest way I can contribute? If I committed to running/driving all the roads in Roscommon town, keeping tracklogs, and noting speed limits, traffic management features (traffic lights, roundabouts, one-way routes etc.), would this be of use?

I'm also off skiing in Söll in Austria in January, and will likely bring my 405 GPS watch, for geo-tagging photos, and also keeping track of where we ski'ed. I see there's an Open Piste Map initiative (http://openpistemap.org/) but couldn't commit to skiing all the trails / using all the lifts (or the OH and kids would be exhausted!) but would these tracklogs be of use? I have tracklogs for the last couple of years of ski too, but they would be quite disorganized.

robinph

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm also off skiing in Söll in Austria in January, and will likely bring my 405 GPS watch, for geo-tagging photos, and also keeping track of where we ski'ed. I see there's an Open Piste Map initiative (http://openpistemap.org/) but couldn't commit to skiing all the trails / using all the lifts (or the OH and kids would be exhausted!) but would these tracklogs be of use? I have tracklogs for the last couple of years of ski too, but they would be quite disorganized.

I've added a few tracks and edited the maps for a number of areas around the world as I've been to them. So far OpenPisteMap itself is mostly just a curiosity I think as due to the nature of pistes and the way that people make their way down the mountains, it (OPM) has not really figured out where it is of use so far. I've only used my 60CSx for that kind of thing, which is much more accurate than the 405 for the tracks, and does at least give a slightly more accurate altitude reading if you want to know where your at whilst up the mountain. The list of resorts that there is at least some kind of mapping for has increased a bit since the last time I got round to updating anything myself. If nothing else the mapping of the towns themselves and lifts is certainly of use.

Garmin Connect does let you upload tracks and specify them as actual ski sessions in your training log, but I never went that far. You absolutely have to make sure you remember to lock the bezel on the 405 though when skiing. Just using my 405 as a watch and one day I forgot to lock it and then couldn't tell the time for the rest of the day as the 405 went and had a bit of a fit once inevitably some snow went up my sleeve*.



* No chance of course that I may have fallen over, was all the result of snowball fights, honest.

hugoline

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

These are fantastic for my immediate area. I'm heading to Roscommon town over Christmas where the OSM maps are very poor. what is the simplest way I can contribute? If I committed to running/driving all the roads in Roscommon town, keeping tracklogs, and noting speed limits, traffic management features (traffic lights, roundabouts, one-way routes etc.), would this be of use?

mackerski, IrlJidel or any of the other main irish OSM contributors will probably post soon.

The simplest way to contribute is probably just to record and upload your tracks.

But if you want to work on the map and add features, there is a very good beginners guide on the OSM wiki, taking you through the process step by step.

I myself record the tracklogs (make sure you set it to record every 1 second) and then use JOSM to create and upload the new features (mainly streets and hiking paths in my case). How much detail (post box, traffic light,...) you record and enter is up to you.

Warning!! it can become addictive

robinph

^ ...and make sure you do not have any unit set to lock on road for maps that you may have installed on that unit, obviously not an issue with the 405.

Krusty_Clown

robinph wrote: »

Garmin Connect does let you upload tracks and specify them as actual ski sessions in your training log, but I never went that far.

I uploaded them from the 405 to Garmin Connect for my ski trip to Morzine last year (very handy for the 1,000 mile challenge ). Worked out quite well (http://connect.garmin.com/activity/1831663). Hardest part was remembering to turn GPS on/off at lunch time, to try and get the most out of the 7 hour battery life, and losing signal in the gondolas.
I've often brought it on hikes). I'll bring the 405 anyway for tagging the photos, and see if the track logs are useful.

mackerski

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

These are fantastic for my immediate area. I'm heading to Roscommon town over Christmas where the OSM maps are very poor. what is the simplest way I can contribute? If I committed to running/driving all the roads in Roscommon town, keeping tracklogs, and noting speed limits, traffic management features (traffic lights, roundabouts, one-way routes etc.), would this be of use?

Simply put: yes! Ideally you'll take to the editing tools and be able to directly add value to the map, but tracklogs, especially if accompanied by notes, are valuable even if you prefer not to. A few tips on tracklog gathering:

• As mentioned, switch off lock-on-road
• Ideally configure your device to log one point every second. This gives the most detailed track logs. This can fill your memory quickly, though, triggering wraparound, so if you can't log to a card or don't have much internal memory you may have to compromise.
• Drive a complete 360 around roundabouts when you survey them. You'll look a bit of an eejit, but it's the only way to accurately capture the diameter.
• Switch on the WAAS mode of your GPS, if present. This will yield more accurate tracklogs.
• Switch off any power saving mode on the device. Same reason.

Also, in taking notes, road numbers are really important. We can map without them, but sooner or later we'll need them, so collect them if you can. Photographs are useful too - and if you record the offset between true GPS time and the clock on your camera you can even geocode them and display the pics inline in the editor. You can capture this offset by photographing the clock display on your device (if it has one).

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm also off skiing in Söll in Austria in January, and will likely bring my 405 GPS watch, for geo-tagging photos, and also keeping track of where we ski'ed. I see there's an Open Piste Map initiative (http://openpistemap.org/) but couldn't commit to skiing all the trails / using all the lifts (or the OH and kids would be exhausted!) but would these tracklogs be of use? I have tracklogs for the last couple of years of ski too, but they would be quite disorganized.

Good choice of ski destination - I was out there 2 weeks ago training our reps (I'm in the business). You'll find it's very well mapped on OSM, as I've surveyed it in some detail this year and last year. I've left some GPS devices for rep use in their resorts so they can capture more POIs for OSM - we're using OSM maps for our emailed welcome packs and as an optional layer on our site which, for now, has Google maps too (click on the "Ski" layer and pan about to see the ski area).

Most of the lifts and many of the pistes in the Ski-Welt are already on OSM, though the Söll nursery slope T-bar isn't one of them, so a tracklog from that would be very welcome. But plenty of slopes are missing and it would be nice to capture them. It takes practice to decipher a day's tracklog, but there are tricks - slow movement at constant speed in a straight line is a lift. Fast zig zags are pistes, etc.

I find that mapping pistes is worthwhile, whether for OpenPisteMap or otherwise. Granted, mapping a piste as a linear feature is an approximation, but even this allows for crude routing between pistes and lifts and it helps with orientation when out on the slopes. You can, though it's not well supported by renderers, also map pistes as areas. I'm not convinced that adds a lot of value, though - remember that the piste maintenance people have to move things around a bit because of snow conditions or other factors - so a schematic representation of pistes may be as useful as it can get.

Krusty_Clown

mackerski wrote: »

You'll find it's very well mapped on OSM, as I've surveyed it in some detail this year and last year. I've left some GPS devices for rep use in their resorts so they can capture more POIs for OSM - we're using OSM maps for our emailed welcome packs and as an optional layer on our site which, for now, has Google maps too (click on the "Ski" layer and pan about to see the ski area).

Thanks for the info mackerski. I will most certainly have a go at mapping Rscommon town, and the missing T-bar in Söll. I had looked at Söll before in OSM, but hadn't seen the osmarender layer, so didn't see all of the detail that was already available. Looks like I have a bit of reading to do over Christmas, to figure out how to upload this data to a Garmin.

IrlJidel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

These are fantastic for my immediate area. I'm heading to Roscommon town over Christmas where the OSM maps are very poor. what is the simplest way I can contribute? If I committed to running/driving all the roads in Roscommon town, keeping tracklogs, and noting speed limits, traffic management features (traffic lights, roundabouts, one-way routes etc.), would this be of use?

I had a quick look at the 405 and it states that "It can record 20hrs assuming 1 point every 4 seconds". This equates to about 18k trackpoints. As far as I can gather you cannot set the interval - it uses smart sampling which I guess means it adapts its sampling rate to your speed. So I dont know if the samping will be good enough if you are driving.

As you can see by comparing OSM and Google maps, Roscommon is fairly virgin terrority so any new mapping there would be most useful.

Glenamaddy is an area that mackerski frequently refers to as an example 'There be Dragons' area where we have very little mapping so if you can map that he'll have to start using a new victim ;-)

The level of detail you want to map is up to you. You could either try to quickly get many of the missing local roads by driving around the area or you can map Roscommon town in detail and map in the residental and main town area.

If you have some of the main streets done you can use http://walking-papers.org/ to easily add details as you are around the town. Walking Papers allows you to print out a map of the area, scribble down some extra detail and then scan it in. This scan can then be used in the online Potlatch editor or the Java Josm editor.

Either way, the tradition in Ireland appears to be that one of the first items you should add is a pub ;-)

Have fun!

Krusty_Clown

The 405 may be able to record 20 hours of data, however, the battery will only realistically last around 6-7 hours, and my running abilities will not extend that far! I'll actually use my Zumo 550 to create the tracklogs, however, the Zumo doesn't have an option to increase the sampling rate/turn off power-save mode etc. but I think it samples at around 1/sec anyway (but probably uses smart sampling also). On the plus side, it has capacity for a massive amount of tracklog data. I'll turn off snap to road, and WAAS.

Part of my motivation (even though I don't visit Roscommon that often) is that the google maps (and Navteq) data is flawed. By the way, the OSM data you linked to shows a lake/body of water, which is in fact more of a flood-plain. Is it correct to represent this as a body of water, if it is only seasonally (temporarily) flooded? So much to learn.

IrlJidel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

By the way, the OSM data you linked to shows a lake/body of water, which is in fact more of a flood-plain. Is it correct to represent this as a body of water, if it is only seasonally (temporarily) flooded? So much to learn.

I presume there is now a new residential estate there now? ;-)

D

Krusty_Clown

IrlJidel wrote: »

I presume there is now a new residential estate there now? ;-)

D

Even in Roscommon they're not that mad.
However, on the other side of the town they have indeed built shops and retail units in a flood plain. :eek:

Krusty_Clown

I assume the Wicklow Way is already pretty well mapped out on OSM at this stage? Here's some log info that I put together previously. *Edit*:Actually, I just noticed that the OSM maps are available in the mapping drop-down list.

IrlJidel

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I assume the Wicklow Way is already pretty well mapped out on OSM at this stage? Here's some log info that I put together previously. *Edit*:Actually, I just noticed that the OSM maps are available in the mapping drop-down list.

I started tracking the Walking network here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ireland/Irish_Waymarked_Walking_Trail_Network#The_Wicklow_Way

Walking routes are managed as a relation, which is a collection of ways.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2740

You use a relation as the parts of the Wicklow way is shared with the Dublin Mountains Way or runs along a road.

mackerski

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'll turn off snap to road, and WAAS.

For WAAS, "On" is actually what you want. BTW, I don't know if the Zumo has the option to switch off the snap to road - Nuvis don't - but if not, switching off the map itself is an alternative.

On the matter of "Smart" logging - unfortunately it's not so smart for OSM purposes, but logging on foot should help things a little.