Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

foggy_lad

This whole WRC thing seems to be about building or expanding the rail network at any cost! Nevermind that the country can't afford such waste, or that there are no passengers for such a line, and that any passengers will soon get fed up of the uncomfortable commuter type trains and veeeeery long journey times, or that if finished and opened it would be slower than cycling the greenway which will hopefully be completed on the alignment!

This train has no passengers, no money, no real past and certainly no future but hey lets just throw money at is because we want our own train set!

westtip

Foggy its about the wesht being deprived of vital infrastructure --- remember what West on Track said about phase one:

West on Track July 20th 2009

The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational.

But we really must develop the rest of the line North of Athenry because apparently you can't judge it on only part of the corridor being built - so lets spend another 500 million and subvention of god knows what per annum to see if it works......errr I think not

don't you love that one about delivering many thousands of jobs....many thousands of paying passengers would be a good start...

Foggy you have summed the whole farce up very well!!!:D

sligotrain

foggy_lad wrote: »

This whole WRC thing seems to be about building or expanding the rail network at any cost! Nevermind that the country can't afford such waste, or that there are no passengers for such a line, and that any passengers will soon get fed up of the uncomfortable commuter type trains and veeeeery long journey times, or that if finished and opened it would be slower than cycling the greenway which will hopefully be completed on the alignment!

This train has no passengers, no money, no real past and certainly no future but hey lets just throw money at is because we want our own train set!

Complete and utter uninformed straw man rubbish. There's a wider social and economic benefit to any infrastructure spend and if we really want to reboot the country we need to seriously look at what and how we invest in order to provide industry with the means of transporting their goods.

A train slower than cycling? Did you go to school and learn some basic physics?

And by the way, no need to SHOUT in your responses either.

foggy_lad

sligotrain wrote: »

Complete and utter uninformed straw man rubbish. There's a wider social and economic benefit to any infrastructure spend and if we really want to reboot the country we need to seriously look at what and how we invest in order to provide industry with the means of transporting their goods.

A train slower than cycling? Did you go to school and learn some basic physics?

And by the way, no need to SHOUT in your responses either.

It has already been shown that using taxis for passengers would be cheaper to do and also accounts for the social aspect.

Industry will never be of any value to the western fail corridor and this mickey mouse branch line will never attract any business or industry to the west apart from specialist railway scrap merchants. building more roads will benefit the west a lot more.

Hmmm basic physics eh how about basic maths? No population = no demand and no passengers.

A few local-link minibus services would carry thousands more than this failure and at a fraction of the cost.

LivelineDipso

sligotrain wrote: »

Complete and utter uninformed straw man rubbish. There's a wider social and economic benefit to any infrastructure spend and if we really want to reboot the country we need to seriously look at what and how we invest in order to provide industry with the means of transporting their goods.

I do agree with this bold part - but that would be the Metro North, DART Underground and a complete rebuild/electrified of the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast mainlines. An electrain with decent speed running from Belfast to Cork via the DART UUnderground would be a hell of an asset.

As for goods, the excellent roads are now there with less traffic jams than ever. Road transport will be with us for another thousand years at least. The combustion engine is slowly being phased out - hybrids and electrics already here and growing.

Spending more money on the WRC would be akin to these crazy projects African dictators do. Please understand, it's not needed.

sligotrain

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I do agree with this bold part - but that would be the Metro North, DART Underground and a complete rebuild/electrified of the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast mainlines. An electrain with decent speed running from Belfast to Cork via the DART UUnderground would be a hell of an asset.

As for goods, the excellent roads are now there with less traffic jams than ever. Road transport will be with us for another thousand years at least. The combustion engine is slowly being phased out - hybrids and electrics already here and growing.

Spending more money on the WRC would be akin to these crazy projects African dictators do. Please understand, it's not needed.

This is really not just about re-opening an old railway line and hoping passengers will get onto it. This is actually about establishing infrastructure such as motorway connections and widened roads, high speed internet access and air connections.

We as a nation need urgently to move away from our one off development strategy in rural areas and think again about how to equip our rural areas with adequate infrastructure that will act as an enabler to bring manufacturing and other businesses to rural Ireland.

The WRC is part of a wider potential western rail arc that could ultimately bring railway connections from the north right down to the west and south.

Already the Northern Assembly are debating how to obtain EU funds to restore long closed railways in the west of NI and these restored rail links could ultimately link up Sligo with Derry, Enniskillen, Limerick and Donegal.

Admittedly this is VERY long term stuff - and in the interim a greenway should be established on the existing trackbed to ensure the line is kept in public use. If in the future a railway line can be developed on the Claremorris - Collooney section the greenway can be kept running parallel to the track, at an appropriately safe distance.

The Idyl Race

sligotrain wrote: »

This is really not just about re-opening an old railway line and hoping passengers will get onto it. This is actually about establishing infrastructure such as motorway connections and widened roads, high speed internet access and air connections.

We as a nation need urgently to move away from our one off development strategy in rural areas and think again about how to equip our rural areas with adequate infrastructure that will act as an enabler to bring manufacturing and other businesses to rural Ireland.

The WRC is part of a wider potential western rail arc that could ultimately bring railway connections from the north right down to the west and south.

Already the Northern Assembly are debating how to obtain EU funds to restore long closed railways in the west of NI and these restored rail links could ultimately link up Sligo with Derry, Enniskillen, Limerick and Donegal.

Admittedly this is VERY long term stuff - and in the interim a greenway should be established on the existing trackbed to ensure the line is kept in public use. If in the future a railway line can be developed on the Claremorris - Collooney section the greenway can be kept running parallel to the track, at an appropriately safe distance.

Holistic solutions and a spatial development strategy? That's crazy librul city slicker talk, boy!

sligotrain

The Idyl Race wrote: »

Holistic solutions and a spatial development strategy? That's crazy librul city slicker talk, boy!

Good old Kinky Friedman, a wise man!

westtip

foggy_lad wrote: »

Industry will never be of any value to the western fail corridor and this mickey mouse branch line will never attract any business or industry to the west apart from specialist railway scrap merchants. building more roads will benefit the west a lot more.

.

Ah yes industry and the thousands of jobs delivered by the Western Fail corridor..see the WOT quote a few posts back...

Whereas rethink this "corridor" as a new economic corridor

1) Gas pipeline along the route using belmullet natural gas - not so much for domestic use but to develop our food processing industry - the availability of reliable north sea gas transformed the UK food processing industry in the 1970s and 80s.

2)industry level internet connectivity using this route - to attract cloud computing, software development, secure data storage facilities, home based electronic cottage workers, benefits to education delivery of medical analysis services and overall social benefit

3) Greenway for all the reasons that have already been spelt out.

Yes deliver the road we need from Letterkenny to Cork - Saves lives (huge cost benefit - you only have to see the complete drop of road deaths on routes that have been motorway treated), massive improvement in supply chain logistics, makes bus services totally reliable

4) For the time being forget the railway - it will not deliver one job save those of re-rostered IE staff.

Sligotrain arguing - for the infrastructure on the basis of build it for the sake of it is madness - build it if we need it - trouble is we don't - we will also get by without the gas pipeline, the IT superhighway, the greenway - but the point is for a lot less cost than the railway - the opportunity for this triangular use of the Western Economic Corridor is there - why not use it and reinvent the railway line?

Grandeeod

sligotrain wrote: »

Admittedly this is VERY long term stuff - and in the interim a greenway should be established on the existing trackbed to ensure the line is kept in public use. If in the future a railway line can be developed on the Claremorris - Collooney section the greenway can be kept running parallel to the track, at an appropriately safe distance.

In the future the WRC route and its initial engineering will render it useless for reopening. If you want to talk about the future and a railway requirement along the lines of the WRC, then you are talking about a complete new build. The more time passes, the more obsolete the WRC route becomes, especially Claremorris - Colooney. You cannot relay that line and expect it to perform at 21st century standards. Its impossible and you know it.

sligotrain

Grandeeod wrote: »

In the future the WRC route and its initial engineering will render it useless for reopening. If you want to talk about the future and a railway requirement along the lines of the WRC, then you are talking about a complete new build. The more time passes, the more obsolete the WRC route becomes, especially Claremorris - Colooney. You cannot relay that line and expect it to perform at 21st century standards. Its impossible and you know it.

The line has to be rebuilt, there's no doubt about that. It's not impossible and I do know it.

There is an excessive number of level crossings on the line and these would need to be reduced, possibly by bridging roads where possible and introducing up to date technology to automate the crossings.

Network Rail in the UK are making significant progress in the reduction of accidents at level crossings. See http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/08/24/level-crossing-safety-scheme-is-most-significant-in-railways-history/ for further details.

foggy_lad

sligotrain wrote: »

The line has to be rebuilt, there's no doubt about that. It's not impossible and I do know it.

There is an excessive number of level crossings on the line and these would need to be reduced, possibly by bridging roads where possible and introducing up to date technology to automate the crossings.

Network Rail in the UK are making significant progress in the reduction of accidents at level crossings. See http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/08/24/level-crossing-safety-scheme-is-most-significant-in-railways-history/ for further details.

Show passenger numbers for a similar stretch of line with similar number of level crossings and farm crossings etc and a similar catchment area anywhere else in the world.

You won't be able to because all such useless lines have been closed.

Grandeeod

sligotrain wrote: »

The line has to be rebuilt, there's no doubt about that. It's not impossible and I do know it.

There is an excessive number of level crossings on the line and these would need to be reduced, possibly by bridging roads where possible and introducing up to date technology to automate the crossings.

Network Rail in the UK are making significant progress in the reduction of accidents at level crossings. See http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/08/24/level-crossing-safety-scheme-is-most-significant-in-railways-history/ for further details.

I put it to you that rebuilding this line along its original route, will still not make it 21st century standard. Unless you are suggesting that outrageous amounts of money are spent on it in order to eliminate every mickeymouse LC via "bridging" roads etc. What about the driveways across the track leading into houses near Colooney? Surely you must admit that even after spending large sums of money on it, the line would still be nothing more than a rather slow non direct route.

sligotrain

Grandeeod wrote: »

I put it to you that rebuilding this line along its original route, will still not make it 21st century standard. Unless you are suggesting that outrageous amounts of money are spent on it in order to eliminate every mickeymouse LC via "bridging" roads etc. What about the driveways across the track leading into houses near Colooney? Surely you must admit that even after spending large sums of money on it, the line would still be nothing more than a rather slow non direct route.

You can put it to me anyway you like, but it is my view that infrastructure spend is not only beneficial but necessary. For instance I advocate the dualling of the N17 and N5 where not already done so. As to the driveways crossing the track bed, tough. If property owners have illegally paved over IE property then those people need to make alternative arrangements regarding their drives.

You make an assumption from your posts that I expect the money to spent now on the WRC. I don't. I think the greenway proposals have merit and that the greenway should be used to maintain the land in public ownership and use. I have not got a crystal ball and can't predict when the money would be available to reinstate rail services but to allow continuing encroachments on the land is madness and should be stopped.

There was a proposal about 10 years ago about a new city to be built near Knock Airport. I think that proposal had a lot of merit. That city would require substantial road and rail investment and if we could use that area for instance as an economic regeneration zone and ensure top class broadband access were available there it would be a great opportunity for the West to act as a high tech hub for Ireland. Imagine a counterpoint to Dublin in Mayo? Not as impossible as some might think.

Grandeeod

sligotrain wrote: »

You can put it to me anyway you like, but it is my view that infrastructure spend is not only beneficial but necessary. For instance I advocate the dualling of the N17 and N5 where not already done so. As to the driveways crossing the track bed, tough. If property owners have illegally paved over IE property then those people need to make alternative arrangements regarding their drives.

You make an assumption from your posts that I expect the money to spent now on the WRC. I don't. I think the greenway proposals have merit and that the greenway should be used to maintain the land in public ownership and use. I have not got a crystal ball and can't predict when the money would be available to reinstate rail services but to allow continuing encroachments on the land is madness and should be stopped.

There was a proposal about 10 years ago about a new city to be built near Knock Airport. I think that proposal had a lot of merit. That city would require substantial road and rail investment and if we could use that area for instance as an economic regeneration zone and ensure top class broadband access were available there it would be a great opportunity for the West to act as a high tech hub for Ireland. Imagine a counterpoint to Dublin in Mayo? Not as impossible as some might think.

I think you are side stepping the point I am raising. Preserving the alignment is pointless because it was a badly built line in the first place and rebuilding it along the same alignment is a backward step and will only bring it up to a safe standard and certainly not the standard required to efficiently service any future growth. One only has to look at the restrictions on the Ennis - Athenry stretch to realise this. Speeds are poor and a modern road can outrun it. The Claremorris-Colooney stretch would be even slower and more cumbersome to operate.

As for your "tough" ascertion re the driveways across the line near Colooney, I doubt they were all built without PP or at the very least Planning retention. This would be Sligo CCs area, one of the councils that was a keen supporter of the WRC. Now thats a bit of a contradiction. If you look closely at other railway reopening campaigns such as Navan, you will also find that Meath CC supported the reopening while at the same time carried out work that blocked the railway alignment. That is why the WOT campaign was unprofessional, because it obsessively garnered political support without consideration to the obvious engineering issues aligned with the economic reality. Politicians jumped on board content that none of us had a clue about the serious problems with reopening the WRC. I admire the fact that you are prepared to preserve the alignment and not demand immediate investment for reopening. But I must stress that you re-examine the future viability of investing money in this route.

I would be delighted if you could explain to me why you believe rebuilding this section would deliver an efficient railway.

sligotrain

Grandeeod wrote: »

I think you are side stepping the point I am raising. Preserving the alignment is pointless because it was a badly built line in the first place and rebuilding it along the same alignment is a backward step and will only bring it up to a safe standard and certainly not the standard required to efficiently service any future growth. One only has to look at the restrictions on the Ennis - Athenry stretch to realise this. Speeds are poor and a modern road can outrun it. The Claremorris-Colooney stretch would be even slower and more cumbersome to operate.

What therefore in your opinion would be a better alignment? Since motorways and dual carraigeways appear to be built across the country with little or no resistance would you prefer an alignment to be built along the central reservation of any dualled N17 for instance?

As for your "tough" ascertion re the driveways across the line near Colooney, I doubt they were all built without PP or at the very least Planning retention. This would be Sligo CCs area, one of the councils that was a keen supporter of the WRC. Now thats a bit of a contradiction. If you look closely at other railway reopening campaigns such as Navan, you will also find that Meath CC supported the reopening while at the same time carried out work that blocked the railway alignment. That is why the WOT campaign was unprofessional, because it obsessively garnered political support without consideration to the obvious engineering issues aligned with the economic reality. Politicians jumped on board content that none of us had a clue about the serious problems with reopening the WRC. I admire the fact that you are prepared to preserve the alignment and not demand immediate investment for reopening. But I must stress that you re-examine the future viability of investing money in this route.

Well, we all know what an appalling state county council planning is in this country so don't expect joined up thinking from Sligo or indeed any other council...

I would be delighted if you could explain to me why you believe rebuilding this section would deliver an efficient railway.

Were we discussing the specifics of what makes an efficient railway or were you thinking of what tactics to use to close down an argument on the internet? Clarification in writing please. Latin terminology preferred. :P

LivelineDipso

sligotrain wrote: »

There was a proposal about 10 years ago about a new city to be built near Knock Airport. I think that proposal had a lot of merit. That city would require substantial road and rail investment and if we could use that area for instance as an economic regeneration zone and ensure top class broadband access were available there it would be a great opportunity for the West to act as a high tech hub for Ireland. Imagine a counterpoint to Dublin in Mayo? Not as impossible as some might think.

The new city was devised by a religious whackjob who wanted to call the place The City of the Sacred Heart. It was to be a centre of religious devotion to serve the purpose of dedicating Ireland to the Virgin Mary. I kid you not. Real high tech hub alright...

It was a crazy idea. Made no sense, none. It was also designed to not "emulate the problems of Dublin" - the city was to be a car-based low density urban area in the "US model". The plans were on line for years - this group wanted to build a Catholic Passadena.

Secondly, what is this about a counterpoint to Dublin? Dublin is a midsize capital which like all Irish cities is underpopulated. Ireland only needs one large sized city and the fact is the country, especially Mayo would be third world without Dublin as the powerful economic engine it is. Ireland, all things considered, is very fortunate to have a city such as Dublin - Dublin should be safeguarded and improved, not dismantled for rural priests and victim complex.

Also explain how Knock Metroland could compete with Dublin? No port, no room for expanding the airport, it is crammed onto the top of a mountain. How does your train get up the mountain - rack system no doubt...

The West already has Galway and Sligo which the Westerners do not want to live in they prefer living next to traffic on N roads waiting for their kids to be run over so they can call it "God's Will".

The Greenway would probably save lives and give people in the west something other than the GAA to keep them healthy and active.

A train will never run between Athenry and Coolooney ever.

sligotrain

Railway line is already there. Goes right past Charlestown.

BTW there's a big difference between "thinking logically" and "agreeing with everything liveline dipso says on the internet"

Grandeeod

sligotrain wrote: »

Were we discussing the specifics of what makes an efficient railway or were you thinking of what tactics to use to close down an argument on the internet? Clarification in writing please. Latin terminology preferred. :P

And therein lies an example of the paranoia I referred to earlier in the thread. I put a straightforward question to you. You have complained about the thread becoming sidetracked by Greenway talk, going as far as requesting a mod to separate it. All I've done is discussed the WRC in railway terms and you can't even engage with me. I dont believe the alignment is worth preserving and Ive told you why. Now are you capable of telling me why it should be preserved and rebuilt at some point and how it will perform?

LivelineDipso

sligotrain wrote: »

Railway line is already there. Goes right past Charlestown.

BTW there's a big difference between "thinking logically" and "agreeing with everything liveline dipso says on the internet"

Charlestown is miles away from the airport and there is a car dealership and Charlestown FC on the line because "people in the West really care about the WRC". They couldn't give a Flying Snail!



your smiley just means you have no rebuttle to the other points.

LivelineDipso

Here is the city which Sligotrain is talking about.

Galway-based, William A. Thomas proposed the East Mayo location to Government in 2000 and he says that to date more than 4,500 articles have been written about the proposal all over the world.

As well, he says, that some 100,000 people have expressed an interest in the new city by putting their names on a list for houses and some 1,345 major companies have expressed an interest in setting up in a new city.


Mr Thomas adds that given the dire warnings about the gulf stream slowing down, NASA and other scientists have warned that Ireland's temperature could go well below -40 degrees centigrade, so any new city must be a thermal-proofed city. [LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!]

He adds that it must be a beautiful city and not reflect what has gone wrong with Irish cities today.

"You will always get crime where you have ghettoes. Any new city must incorporate excellent schooling, excellent social infrastructure and job opportunities for all," he adds.

He proposes that the new City of the Sacred Heart be made a district as opposed to being within the domain of Mayo County Council.

He hopes the government would consider moving out of Dublin, given their evident desire to decentralise, and move into the new city.

There were wider possibilities also. The EU could move part of its operation to the new city and it was very possible the UN would move lock, stock and barrel out of New York to a new city in a neutral country.

Mr. Thomas insists the new city must be built and the only place for it is in East Mayo.

He hopes the people of the west and, especially those politicians who say they want to represent the west and want to see full employment and a quality of life better than in the US will now come forward and support the project.

Grandeeod

LivelineDipso wrote: »

Here is the city which Sligotrain is talking about.

Thanks for the laugh!

wonder88

Noticed today that the work on the Oranmore Train station in well underway. This should boast the numbers on the new Limerick to Galway line and I hope that IR will use the opportunity to promote it by making plenty of cheap tickets available.

corktina

wonder88 wrote: »

Noticed today that the work on the Oranmore Train station in well underway. This should boast the numbers on the new Limerick to Galway line and I hope that IR will use the opportunity to promote it by making plenty of cheap tickets available.

scarcasm? Oranmore isn't on the new Limerick to Galway (sic) line...it's on the Dublin to Galway line thats been there for 150 years or so

Aard

wonder88 wrote: »

Noticed today that the work on the Oranmore Train station in well underway. This should boast the numbers on the new Limerick to Galway line and I hope that IR will use the opportunity to promote it by making plenty of cheap tickets available.

Yeah I can't really see people hopping on at Oranmore, switching at Athenry, then continuing on towards Limerick.

Also, to "boast" the numbers is an unfortunate typo there!

sligotrain

Grandeeod wrote: »

And therein lies an example of the paranoia I referred to earlier in the thread. I put a straightforward question to you. You have complained about the thread becoming sidetracked by Greenway talk, going as far as requesting a mod to separate it. All I've done is discussed the WRC in railway terms and you can't even engage with me. I dont believe the alignment is worth preserving and Ive told you why. Now are you capable of telling me why it should be preserved and rebuilt at some point and how it will perform?

For a start you aren't talking in railway terms at all, you're just trying to create a straw man and then back me into a corner that you think I can't get out of. You haven't actually discussed anything - you've made a statement that you want me to agree with and I simply won't agree with you - you don't like that do you?

I'm not playing by your self imposed rules. I believe the line should be reinstated as part of a wider regeneration of the West's broader infrastructure. I also support more motorway building but no one is going to attack me for that here eh?

sligotrain

Grandeeod wrote: »

Thanks for the laugh!

What's your favourite drink out there? Bitter lemon? You can whistle for any further responses from me.

monument

sligotrain wrote: »

What's your favourite drink out there? Bitter lemon? You can whistle for any further responses from me.

If you had not closed your account you would have got a one week ban.

To others: Feel free to laugh at the city near Knock pipe dream, but enough of the repeated lols.

Please back on topic and do not reply to this post.

LivelineDipso

What I can't understand is how this collection of meandering branchlines between Limerick and Collooney has taken on an almost supernatural, mythical or even religious nature among a tiny group of people?

The hysteria surrounding the reopening is so absolute and entrenched that these people would be perfectly content to see the entire national and communter rail network sacrified so they could - JUST ONCE - see a train moving beteen Limerick and Sligo. This is what I fail to understand. Why the obsession with something so pointless and potentially destructive to the rest of the rail system?

I have found no real documentation that while these branches were open and in-tact anybody in the West really cared about them or bother to use them. The idea only seemed to take off when the lines were closed in 1975. Something very odd happened. Not only did the people who had previously no interest in the line, demand it be reopened, but they raised it to the level of a religious movement seeing it as not only the salvation of the West of Ireland, but also proof that the "Dublin Government" had it in for Connaught. None of this makes any sense.

There was a documentary of the book Nobody Cried Stop on RTE in late 70's about the migration of civil servants from Mayo to Dublin (you would think they were being deported to Belsen or Tasmania and not getting a well paid job 80 miles up the road!) and the author of the book was seen in Charlestown among the grassy railway tracks pointing towards Dublin with a classic middle class victim complex.

I wonder is this the origin of the WRC religion?

eastwest

LivelineDipso wrote: »

What I can't understand is how this collection of meandering branchlines between Limerick and Collooney has taken on an almost supernatural, mythical or even religious nature among a tiny group of people?

The hysteria surrounding the reopening is so absolute and entrenched that these people would be perfectly content to see the entire national and communter rail network sacrified so they could - JUST ONCE - see a train moving beteen Limerick and Sligo. This is what I fail to understand. Why the obsession with something so pointless and potentially destructive to the rest of the rail system?

I have found no real documentation that while these branches were open and in-tact anybody in the West really cared about them or bother to use them. The idea only seemed to take off when the lines were closed in 1975. Something very odd happened. Not only did the people who had previously no interest in the line, demand it be reopened, but they raised it to the level of a religious movement seeing it as not only the salvation of the West of Ireland, but also proof that the "Dublin Government" had it in for Connaught. None of this makes any sense.

There is a solution that will keep everyone happy.
Simply draw down a hundred million or so of 'Dublin money' and connect Athenry to Collooney with a slow train, using a good slice of the money to compensate the lads who appropriated sections of this public asset. Run a few trains on the line for twelve months, during which time the people screaming for a rail link won't actually use it, and then close it down as a loss making venture. The latter will take several years and will make the careers of a whole new generation of politicians, who will get elected to government on a 'save the train' platform. They can then resign from their particular parties in protest, guaranteeing themselves re-election well into the future.
When all that has been done, a new 'pro-greenway' movement will attempt to make use of the railway, but they will be opposed by the train lobby. In the meantime, sections of the line will be grabbed by canny landowners with an eye to future 'Dublin money.'
The politics of the west!