Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

Anyway back to the Western Rail Corridor/Greenway, I was just watching julia bradbury railway walks on the BBC, she was walking the old line along the Spey valley which is now a major tourist attraction and attracts many people who just walk or cycle along get tired and hungry stop in hotels along route and spend money.

It made me think, just what is the problem in converting the abandoned WRC into a greenway. What is it in the psyche of West on Track that makes them want to open this old railway with no apparent justification for their arguments. What on earth is actually wrong with the greenway concept on this old railway alignment. Why I suppose is the question do they actually want to see the railway restored and what exactly will it achieve for the west of ireland?

Many of us here now support the greenway idea - but could someone remind me what on earth are the actual arguments in favour of the railway again? I've forgotten them

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

The current fares Dublin-Cork are €62 single, €73.50 day return, €79.50 open return.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82519359#post82519359

€21.99 single if you book a week in advance !!!

Talk to the hand

lxflyer wrote: »

To be quite honest all of you should cool down and stop polarising one another.

There is plenty of room for bus and rail TOGETHER on Intercity routes and frankly as I've said before, the competition is good for all, provided it is not suicidal.

I fail to see how the consumer will lose with this. Choice is good - some prefer the bus, some the train, but it will be down to personal choice. And the good news is that everyone now has a bigger choice!

Winding one another up by saying one mode will kill the the other, or that one is so superior to the other to render it obsolete isn't necessary really, and I don't think it helps any of the arguments frankly.

People have a choice and they can select which mode they prefer. Some will prefer the train, others the bus, but competition is good for all.

A sensible view, each to their own.

Sponge Bob

steamengine wrote: »

We know who that person was - Incidentally I broadly hold the same view of the WRC as the OP DWCommuter and Westip. I do think though that posters who do support the WRC should be allowed to express and explain their position.

My problem with this is that it is more of a cult than a position nowadays. The Victorians built most of the network in LESS time than the Western Intercounty Railway Committee has been in exitence, eg from 1830 to 1866.

My reference to InterCity rail is more generic and would refer to the well established corridors. Incidentally P11 morphed into RUI as I understand it and AFAIK a broadly based Irish railway lobby does not exist, but if it does let me know as I'll gladly join it.

P11 are reputable, sadly in the mid noughties IE were obsessed with the KRP then the Interconnector ( and bring it up in Houston which was crazy) and did nothing to the permanent way west of Sallins. Meanwhile around 2002 the motorways started to grow rapidlly in parallel to these unimproved sections. IE had replaced the track in the 1990s of course.

Rural interests at the end of the intercity lines were distracted by the ravings of the individual in question. Even serious minded regional interests who want to maintain heavy rail intercity modes in their regions were caught up in that froth and WRC induced matters as was the cabinet itself.

Only Cork ...it seems...did something about building population alongside railway lines.

Then in 2010 the motorways were finished and the consequences of the backlog of improvements caught up with IE.

We had a mini WRC moment in Galway when some misguided people though we should retain a highly subsidised airport in recent years. Thankfully that idiocy did not last long either. The single best way to improve communications in Ireland would be proper high speed universal broadband which will stop people travelling in the FIRST PLACE and should substitute a lot of daily journeys out of the system.

foggy_lad

steamengine wrote: »

€21.99 single if you book a week in advance !!!

That is the cruncher though, you must book a week in advance to pay twice the walk-up bus fare, Oh wait you have not added the fare to the City centre or the online web charges, so it will be €26.59 booked a week in advance against €12 on GoBé and €15 on aircoach.

Is it a marketing thing that they don't show the fares for the WRC on the website? Just found the fares and they are quite high considering the limited service offered.

devnull

It's actually €9 on Aircoach, but I'd agree with Lxflyer that both forms of transport have their benefits and we need both types.

periodictable

Shut the passenger routes down. It's been a failure. There's a perfectly good bus route from Limerick on a route that is 80% state of the art motorway. Enough money down the toilet.

corktina

devnull wrote: »

It's actually €9 on Aircoach, but I'd agree with Lxflyer that both forms of transport have their benefits and we need both types.

but can we really afford both? A subsidised service that also costs twice the private unsubsidised service, seems like we are paying a lot for little (if any) benefit.

If private coach services are that cheap and quick maybe it is really Bus Eireann that is the problem here...

end of the road

periodictable wrote: »

Shut the passenger routes down.

most of the routes are only that. shutting down the whole rail network will achieve nothing, if your talking about ennis athenry then i suspect closure will happen eventually but not before more worth while lines are closed so that funds can be diverted to it

monument

Sponge Bob wrote: »

P11 are reputable, sadly in the mid noughties IE were obsessed with the KRP then the Interconnector ( and bring it up in Houston which was crazy) and did nothing to the permanent way west of Sallins. Meanwhile around 2002 the motorways started to grow rapidlly in parallel to these unimproved sections. IE had replaced the track in the 1990s of course.

Rural interests at the end of the intercity lines were distracted by the ravings of the individual in question. Even serious minded regional interests who want to maintain heavy rail intercity modes in their regions were caught up in that froth and WRC induced matters as was the cabinet itself.

Only Cork ...it seems...did something about building population alongside railway lines.

Then in 2010 the motorways were finished and the consequences of the backlog of improvements caught up with IE.

We had a mini WRC moment in Galway when some misguided people though we should retain a highly subsidised airport in recent years. Thankfully that idiocy did not last long either. The single best way to improve communications in Ireland would be proper high speed universal broadband which will stop people travelling in the FIRST PLACE and should substitute a lot of daily journeys out of the system.

While tracks etc were upgraded, there's signs that fewer than needed improvements have been made under the ballast. I'm not uncritical of Irish Rail (the press office, I'm sure, would agree) but I would think it's fair to say:

Governments have not exactly pushed much money their way for upgrades and when they did get money it was often used for playing catch up and often for safety. For governments motorways were a greater priority than even Dart Underground.

Even if there was flaws in the wider Dublin rail project -- including Dart Underground, resignalling, the KRP etc -- overall, I can't see any flaw in keeping it as the main priority and focus. Not only will the results vastly improve the regional rail services but it has and will improve intercity services and will vastly improve the rail access to intercity services.

As you said, only Cork tried to build up population along the railway. Galway meanwhile were busy allowing housing to be splattered all around the county. And I know a few 100 meters from me right now, Mayo Co Co allowed two housing estates, clusters of houses and a load of one-off housing to be built just outside Ballina's town border -- on the opposite side of the town to the railway. Another estate just inside the town boundary seems to be in de-zoned land. Bar a few exceptions mostly in Cork and Dublin, the building boom moved Ireland's population away from rail.

Telecommuting is around or less the 10% in EU countries with better broadband than us and peaks in emerging markets at around 30% -- we're culturally closer to the former. So while I support better broadband, I don't buy the idea that better broadband will result in large percentages of trips being taken out of the system -- but it's still worth pushing.

Sponge Bob

monument wrote: »

Galway meanwhile were busy allowing housing to be splattered all around the county. And I know a few 100 meters from me right now

Galway also contains the only town in Ireland near a working railway where the population numbers in the town grew to the extent that it could possibly warrant reopening the old closed down station there....and so IE decided to move the station out of the town.

LoonyLovegood

I was on a Galway - Dublin train today, and saw the train that I presume was running the WRC - it looked in bits! I could barely make out the colour of it, it was covered in dirt.

If IE want people using it, maybe make it even look a bit more appealing?

steamengine

foggy_lad wrote: »

The train will NEVER be an option for the less attractive provincial rural routes and most are already well serviced by Bus Éireann under PSO contracts so privates laying on services would be a waste of their resources.
Those lines in danger of closing have not been of use or benefit for donkeys years and will never see any serious traffic in the future, just look at the WRC and see how useless that bit of infrastructure is compared to the massive cost to the state for something that will never contribute anything meaningful to the economy.



The current fares Dublin-Cork are €62 single, €73.50 day return, €79.50 open return.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82519359#post82519359

This post is a good example of the pro-bus anti-rail bias that exists on boards, propelled by a few and cheered on by a few more. Note how the cheapest fare was omitted as per my previous post.

Also no mention of how these lines are part of a network and how by systematic piece-meal removal will eventually render the whole network useless.

Sponge Bob

I don't pay much attention to Foggy myself TBH

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

This post is a good example of the pro-bus anti-rail bias that exists on boards, propelled by a few and cheered on by a few more. Note how the cheapest fare was omitted as per my previous post.

Also no mention of how these lines are part of a network and how by systematic piece-meal removal will eventually render the whole network useless.

yes but you can't just counter those points of view by saying "I'm not listening, rail is wonderful". In my case rail is too dear to be of any use to me, much as I would love to be riding the rail all the time and I would probably never use the bus to go anywhere in Ireland as the routes on offer to me don't go where I'm likely to want to go

So I am not anti-rail or pro-bus, but I am willing to argue the points on their merits rather than having a blinkered view of how I'd like to see transport panning out. It seems to me that many of the "pro-.rail at all costs" lobby on here are mostly interested in "trainspotting" in it's various guises rather than from angle of providing sensible Commuting and Transport options of passengers.

so lets have some countering of the so-called anti-rail opinions rather than just trying to shout them down all the time.

bk

I agree partly with Ixflyer, competition is good, the more the better IMO. And people can then pick their preferred option.

What I do have an issue with is a totally unsubsidised private company going up against a very heavy subsidised semi-state company. I've a problem with the concept of my hard earned taxes going to subsidise rail (or anything) when a perfectly good equivalent exists that requires no subsidy and actually costs the user much less.

If people want to take a train, then of course let them, but leave them pay the full real price and not the subsidised price.

If rail can't survive without the subsidy, well then that means people aren't using it and it isn't in fact needed.

Now I have no problem with my tax money going to pay for things I don't personally use, as long as they are economically or socially justified. The thing is I'm just not seeing any social or economic reason to continue to subsidise intercity rail, when we have a perfectly good alternative that costs the taxpayer nothing.

steamengine

Corktina - I've expressed my point of view which is my entitlement here - if my views that InterCity train travel is necessary conflict with others so be it - what I don't understand is rail enthusiasts who are quite prepared to spend money on importing old railway engines and at the same time have an ambivalent view towards our national railway system. Enthusiasm falls well down the list with me - our national railway system is first priority. In fact the biggest preservation project of them all.

Now that is it - back on topic for me anyway !!!

steamengine

westtip wrote: »

Anyway back to the Western Rail Corridor/Greenway, I was just watching julia bradbury railway walks on the BBC, she was walking the old line along the Spey valley which is now a major tourist attraction and attracts many people who just walk or cycle along get tired and hungry stop in hotels along route and spend money.

It made me think, just what is the problem in converting the abandoned WRC into a greenway. What is it in the psyche of West on Track that makes them want to open this old railway with no apparent justification for their arguments. What on earth is actually wrong with the greenway concept on this old railway alignment. Why I suppose is the question do they actually want to see the railway restored and what exactly will it achieve for the west of ireland?

Many of us here now support the greenway idea - but could someone remind me what on earth are the actual arguments in favour of the railway again? I've forgotten them

I've watched a few of these programmes too and it seems entirely logical to make use of redundant railway alignments in this manner. I am wondering though did you see the recent BBC canal documentary where a group of canal enthusiasts started the whole restoration movement back in the mid 50's. It was spearheaded by two charismatic individuals Rolt and Aitken. What they achieved was quite phenomenal in that they forced authority's hand on several occasions to get their way, by just going ahead and doing whatever was needed to be done - holding publicity boating rallies on barely cleared sections etc. Canals were cleared, locks and gates overhauled including massive staircase locks.

I originally thought all this work was government organised but apparently not., the canals had fallen into a terrible state of dereliction. The English IWA then inspired our IWAI (Inland Waterways Association of Ireland) here, which I understand were also a very steady grounded bunch of people and now we have our own fully restored canal system. One of the leaders, Tom Rolt, went on to form the Tallylyn preserved railway in Wales and hence a steam railway preservation movement also got under way and more preservation projects followed on from there, such as the Ffestiniog, and Llangollen steam railways.

What I was wondering is - would a national association for railways be a good idea. Could the aims of greenway supporters and railway preservationists be represented by a collective organisation similar to the IWAI ? It could also give a voice to matters concerning railway lines still in use, organise protests against possible closures etc., and sort out the type of impasse that you refer to above.

Sponge Bob

steamengine wrote: »

Could the aims of greenway supporters and railway preservationists be represented by a collective organisation similar to the IWAI ? It could also give a voice to matters concerning railway lines still in use, organise protests etc., and sort out the type of impasse that you refer to above.

Yes you are right. This is an entirely different body from an Intercity Rail lobby group .:D ...... but were it an Ownership Trust to whom IE could transfer unused lines such as Waterford - New Ross, Tralee - Fenit and Tuam - Colooney ( once they evict the squatters) then good.

It has great merit as long as the trust is allowed to use the alignement for Greenway or Railway or Footpath and must transfer back to IE/DoT if they cease to operate....ie the alignments must remain in public ownership even if not in the ownership of the trust.

I would look upon it like the Patronage Board ( an Foras Pátrúntachta) but designed to devolve operational maintenance and control to local interests who wish to carry out activities (from running trains to opening footpaths) that are consistent with the overall objectives. IWAI isa statutory crossborder agency, that might be overkill for now.

what_traffic

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Galway also contains the only town in Ireland near a working railway where the population numbers in the town grew to the extent that it could possibly warrant reopening the old closed down station there....and so IE decided to move the station out of the town.

Garraun Railway Station?

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

Corktina - I've expressed my point of view which is my entitlement here - if my views that InterCity train travel is necessary conflict with others so be it - what I don't understand is rail enthusiasts who are quite prepared to spend money on importing old railway engines and at the same time have an ambivalent view towards our national railway system. Enthusiasm falls well down the list with me - our national railway system is first priority. In fact the biggest preservation project of them all.

Now that is it - back on topic for me anyway !!!

well thats an easy one, importing old steam engines isn't a C&T issue. Again you are attacking something without arguing for what you believe in... merely saying we need rail because I say so.

I am quite categoric abouit my stand point, rail is too dear, there are cheaper alternatives as good as rail available and an increasing number of people have that viewpoint.

Intercity needs to be cheaper, faster and more comfortable than it is..It may well be that some Intercity lines pay their way but they are cross-subsidiing other services which will never do so, some of which may have outlived their usefulness.

corktina

steamengine wrote: »

I've watched a few of these programmes too and it seems entirely logical to make use of redundant railway alignments in this manner. I am wondering though did you see the recent BBC canal documentary where a group of canal enthusiasts started the whole restoration movement back in the mid 50's. It was spearheaded by two charismatic individuals Rolt and Aitken. What they achieved was quite phenomenal in that they forced authority's hand on several occasions to get their way, by just going ahead and doing whatever was needed to be done - holding publicity boating rallies on barely cleared sections etc. Canals were cleared, locks and gates overhauled including massive staircase locks.

I originally thought all this work was government organised but apparently not., the canals had fallen into a terrible state of dereliction. The English IWA then inspired our IWAI (Inland Waterways Association of Ireland) here, which I understand were also a very steady grounded bunch of people and now we have our own fully restored canal system. One of the leaders, Tom Rolt, went on to form the Tallylyn preserved railway in Wales and hence a steam railway preservation movement also got under way and more preservation projects followed on from there, such as the Ffestiniog, and Llangollen steam railways.

What I was wondering is - would a national association for railways be a good idea. Could the aims of greenway supporters and railway preservationists be represented by a collective organisation similar to the IWAI ? It could also give a voice to matters concerning railway lines still in use, organise protests against possible closures etc., and sort out the type of impasse that you refer to above.

i take it all back, a positive post I can live with.

The trouble with UK voluteer organisations is that they have a market to go at in terms of population and tourism and a pool of willing volunteers to do the graft.We don't have these things.

Talk to the hand

corktina wrote: »

well thats an easy one, importing old steam engines isn't a C&T issue. Again you are attacking something without arguing for what you believe in... merely saying we need rail because I say so.

I am quite categoric abouit my stand point, rail is too dear, there are cheaper alternatives as good as rail available and an increasing number of people have that viewpoint.

Intercity needs to be cheaper, faster and more comfortable than it is..It may well be that some Intercity lines pay their way but they are cross-subsidiing other services which will never do so, some of which may have outlived their usefulness.

I'm with Steamengine on this one. Railways aren't for me a potential outdoor museum of how we used to travel. I see railways as the backbone of public transport and in an integrated transport network we would have rail services feeding bus services and vice versa. There are significant parts of the country where we dont have any rail network whatsoever and these areas need good long distance bus services. Likewise Dublin Airport would benefit greatly from a heavy rail connection and Dublin itself really needs a proper central rail and bus terminal to deal with the capacity problems of Busaras and Connolly station and the remoteness of Heuston.

All that requires money and its money we dont have at the moment. However further closures of our skeleton rail network is short termism and not in anyones interest other than a few of the Doheny and Nesbitt gang.

I want to see the WRC developed as a core component of the rail network but the realist in me considers that other services need more spending first. The doubling of existing lines or at the very least longer passing loops would increase the capacity of the rail network and by running more trains on lines we could utilise the spare rolling stock lying idle. Cutting back on more and more infrequent services like the Waterford-Limerick Junction line is not going to encourage more people onto these trains, quite the opposite.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

i take it all back, a positive post I can live with.

The trouble with UK voluteer organisations is that they have a market to go at in terms of population and tourism and a pool of willing volunteers to do the graft.We don't have these things.

No bother - we'll agree to disagree !:)

The post is really about how the canal preservation came about and how the public managed to get a say through the formation of the IWA. Would it be that defunct 'rail-ways' could be released from the dictatorial grip of a few, or the care of disinterested custodians, and be put to some useful purpose in the public's interest by consensus agreement, through the formation of a similar organisation.

corktina

trouble is though, out of all the thousands of Boards members, there are less than 10 who care enough on the subject to have a strong opinion, and they can't agree to get on with each! Not much chance of getting a committee or something going (much as I agree with the intentions of your plan...)

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

trouble is though, out of all the thousands of Boards members, there are less than 10 who care enough on the subject to have a strong opinion, and they can't agree to get on with each! Not much chance of getting a committee or something going (much as I agree with the intentions of your plan...)

Ok - but you can add in all the greenway enthusiasts to the railway enthusiasts and outside of boards as well. That seems to me to be the potential - if the canal enthusiasts were able to do it then I feel it could at least be a viable idea for trashing out a bit further.

The feeling I have is that the consensus opinion could be that this is a parochial matter and should remain so - fair enough. It was also your mentioning of line sharing between rail and a cycle route some time back - which was shown on the Llangollen railway programme which got me thinking about it.

corktina

go for it then...I'll be member No2 ....

Sponge Bob

The Royal and the Grand canals were passed from CIE to IWAI some years back. I am unsure as to what canals are available TBH. The Galway City Canal and certain other bodies are held by trustees , list of them here.

http://www.iwai.ie/nav/other.html

I'd avoid them I reckon.

steamengine

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The Royal and the Grand canals were passed from CIE to IWAI some years back. I am unsure as to what canals are available TBH. The Galway City Canal and certain other bodies are held by trustees , list of them here.

http://www.iwai.ie/nav/other.html

I'd avoid them I reckon.

They went from CIE to the Board of Works and now Waterways Ireland but IWAI have a big say in how they are run. For example they are against 'liveaboards' ie - people using their boats as permanent dwellings. And there lies the difference between 'waterways' and 'railways'. But this situation regarding canals only exists since about the mid fifties, and enthusiasts had to campaign for it.

Sponge Bob

50 years to the week after the last passenger train ran from Limerick to Tralee they are plugging away at getting the Greenway from the Kerry Border to Tralee fully open. Below is the thread that covers the story. Fun and games in the borderlands this week.

Unlike Connacht the Munster Trail people are organised . The Claremorris-Colooney section is not even abandoned 30 years.

In Connacht they are probably afraid of getting a Drive By Mallacht from a random priest and won't exercise their right to walk on public land as a consequence.

Step 1, WALK before you cycle.

Read >

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83035407&postcount=191

http://www.radiokerry.ie/news/walkers-blocked-from-entering-kerry-on-old-rail-line/

Sunday, February 3rd, 2013 at 1:23 pm.

Yesterday marked the 50th anniversary of the last train to run on the line, and the walk was held to commemorate the journey.

And a friendly TD who will ask questions for yiz

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2013013100070#N25

But be warned. No more than the plethora of FG councillors who milk the Western Intercounty Railway Committee for expenses the Kerry variety of FG councillor can be equally stubborn.

In the middle of this photo with the dodgy headgear is FG Listowel Town Councillor Denis Stack photographed fighing the good squat fight last sunday ( Source with some pics of the nicely restored Limerick section of the North Kerry line included. )



FG Councillor Stack has been asked to make a statement on his involvement in a squatters group called the "North Kerry Abandoned Rail Line Action Group." ....not by Leo Varadkar though.

That won't happen in Connacht as there will be no expenses on offer to the Western Intercounty Railway Committee for this sort of mallarkey....so they won't be there to block the line will they??

But the 2013 campaign, once the weather drys up should be about the public asserting ownership over public property and to build upwards and outwards from that.