Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

n97 mini

eastwest wrote: »

And because the case for it was marginal at best. And because of capacity issues at connolly station.

It would probably bypass Connolly and terminate in Docklands at peak times.

Del.Monte

eastwest wrote: »

And because the case for it was marginal at best. And because of capacity issues at connolly station.

Not so - it was entirely down to political machinations.

schemingbohemia

n97 mini wrote: »

Still do. Dublin - Donegal and Dublin - Kerry are subsidised (aka PSO) routes, to the tune of around €30 per passenger per flight. Makes no sense to subsidise a flight that has a direct rail competitor, also subsidised.

They've kept that rail link to Donegal well hidden!!

marno21

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They've kept that rail link to Donegal well hidden!!

That's the Kerry one he's on about. There's a rail link from Farranfore - Dublin, the railway station is about 1km from the airport.

Sad that Kerry Airport has better rail connectivity than Dublin, Shannon, Knock or Cork but anyway.

westtip

couple of .pdfs courtesy of the Tuam Herald, thank you to Tuam Herald for the .pdfs it appears the greenway campaign is being well debated in East Galway now, must be driving West on Crack mad.

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

It could be argued that the likes of Citylink are being subsidised as by their very existence they are cost the State revenue through increased lost revenue to CIE. In the past various airlines operated internal air routes once again damaging CIE and costing the State (CIE) revenue - a subsidy by another name?

Ah here, you're stretching it now. Burkes Buses run a very popular reliable and user friendly bus service in and out of Galway from a few east Galway towns and villages. No Subsidy. Factoring employment, income tax, corporation tax, vehicle tax and VAT they must be big net contributors to the state coffers.
Do you seriously think that the state should subsidise a vastly inferior train service to try and compete with them? Build those boys more bus lanes instead.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

Ah here, you're stretching it now. Burkes Buses run a very popular reliable and user friendly bus service in and out of Galway from a few east Galway towns and villages. No Subsidy. Factoring employment, income tax, corporation tax, vehicle tax and VAT they must be big net contributors to the state coffers.
Do you seriously think that the state should subsidise a vastly inferior train service to try and compete with them? Build those boys more bus lanes instead.

roads = hidden subsidies. now i don't really have an issue with that, but lets not pretend otherwise. why would we build those boys more bus lanes when they can use the over specked roads? they have got good infrastructure as it is

Del.Monte

Good to see the return of a Westrail stalwart to the fray.

Del.Monte

And the campaign goes on - it can't be long before the first train through to Sligo.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

Good to see the return of a Westrail stalwart to the fray.

Frank Dawson has made one really poor argument there. Its like comparing apples and oranges on the basis of which is better deep fried in batter. I never rated him. His connection to the WRC was based on his Daddy.

Muckyboots

Grandeeod wrote: »

Frank Dawson has made one really poor argument there. Its like comparing apples and oranges on the basis of which is better deep fried in batter. I never rated him. His connection to the WRC was based on his Daddy.

He likes trains, always has. Sean Canney likes train too. Bring back trains.

westtip

Shane Ross being Minister of Transport is Custers last stand for West on Crack. Their man in the battlefield, Sean Canney should be careful he does not get shot in the back, Shane Ross will not deliver his Independent Alliance colleague his railway, but will give him time to stall it once again until the next election. Ross will have to do as he is told at some point; and he will be told to do nothing as we all know doing nothing means no one gets the blame. It's like a f***king merry-go-round. One thing I can say the Greenway folks have changed the debate forever, something I take great personal pride in. West on Crack hate the greenway being debated in the media but are having go live with it. It will all come to an end but when?

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

And the campaign goes on - it can't be long before the first train through to Sligo.

bottom left says see editorial comment....here it is - copy pasted as the link will eventually die

Irish Times editorial Tuesday 25th October ........Any proposals for widespread closures, particularly west of the Shannon, would be politically sensitive, to say the least. The Government’s programme even includes a bald pledge – inserted at the insistence of Independent minister of state Seán Canney – to examine an expansion of the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry, Co Galway, saying that “no measures will be taken to prevent the future reactivation of this corridor for rail use”.

Yet the rail review spells out that the first phase from Ennis to Athenry, opened in 2010 at a cost of €100 million, is not viable for the simple reason that it is not used. It would be cheaper to transport the relatively few passengers by taxi. Indeed, the entire line from Ennis to Sligo should be turned into a greenway route.

couldn't have written it better myself, it is the greenway campaign that is driving the media agenda on this matter.

westtip

Grandeeod wrote: »

Frank Dawson has made one really poor argument there. Its like comparing apples and oranges on the basis of which is better deep fried in batter. I never rated him. His connection to the WRC was based on his Daddy.

Apparently he used to have a train set in his office when he was county manager of Roscommon....that's if this is the same Frank Dawson of West on Crack who wrote that letter.

Grandeeod

westtip wrote: »

Apparently he used to have a train set in his office when he was county manager of Roscommon....that's if this is the same Frank Dawson of West on Crack who wrote that letter.

His Daddy was the driver of the last scheduled passenger train on the WRC. A CoCo lad alright.

Muckyboots

Colm McCarthy stated on Newstalk/Pat Kenny today the the NTA are recommending the immediate closing of the Ennis-Athenry section and seemed to think the government might be about to accept this proposal. Has he an inside line ? - or is he just postulating ?

serfboard

Muckyboots wrote: »

Colm McCarthy stated on Newstalk/Pat Kenny today the the NTA are recommending the immediate closing of the Ennis-Athenry section and seemed to think the government might be about to accept this proposal. Has he an inside line ? - or is he just postulating ?

How things get done in government - if you think a plan or policy will be welcomed, you announce it. If you think it won't, you leak it, either directly or indirectly (as seems to be in this case). Bake it in the oven of public opinion for two weeks and guage the reaction. If a massive or major reaction, deny and rescind the plan. If little to no reaction, carry it out.

Sean Canney couldn't stay in government if this is the case - if he has any principles, that is.

If this is the plan, what will be amusing to see will be all those people who never travel on this train (including the Maynooth-living Fr. Mc Greil and Colman from Claremorris) objecting to its closure.

I would like to see this confirmed by the NTA - though I suspect it won't be.

Muckyboots

[quote="serfboard;101558519"Sean Canney couldn't stay in government if this is the case - if he has any principles, that is.
[/quote]

Sean Canney would walk. Can't see a government or Indie Allies surviving another defection. So the train will probably roll on until end of term. The spin on this will be worth watching.

Del.Monte

What's traffic like on the Clonsilla/M3 Parkway route like? Much better candidate for closure in my opinion. How much will closure of Ennis/Athenry save? What will poor old Belmond do? The piecemeal destruction of Irish railways is breathtaking and you just couldn't make it up. Incompetence heaped upon incompetence.

Idbatterim

What's traffic like on the Clonsilla/M3 Parkway route like? Much better candidate for closure in my opinion. How much will closure of Ennis/Athenry save? What will poor old Belmond do? The piecemeal destruction of Irish railways is breathtaking and you just couldn't make it up. Incompetence heaped upon incompetence.

traffic on this line may well get a good boost, when luas cross city opens?

Surely the heavy rail lines going into Dublin, should have large park and rides just before dublin and try to get people out of cars heading into Dublin, FOR WHOM it is practical to do so! I am not saying force them out, when large amounts of journeys just are not feasible on public transport...

Pete2k

Tuam readers disagree with westips comments...

Kinda Ironic that there is an advert for car spares on the same page.

Muckyboots

Pete2k wrote: »

Tuam readers disagree with westips comments...

Obvious reproduced baiting there, Pete

westtip

Pete2k wrote: »

Tuam readers disagree with westips comments...

Congratulations on the campaign management at last by West on Crack to try and manage the letters page of a small regional paper. No doubt some of the 3,000 people who signed the petition in favour of the greenway a few years back in Tuam will start to express their views, rather than just "the man from Enniscrone"!!!!. The great thing about this is the debate which West on Crack never wanted to have is happening. Debate is good. When the numbers in that piece of research by West on Crack are fully analysed and the official release of the NTA report happens there will be more debate. I think its great all this stuff is coming into the public domain, it makes the likelihood of the railway happening even less. Now please don't get me wrong if we had 200 million to spend on freight line from Athenry to Claremorris for the two freight trains a day to use as short cut to Waterford go ahead and built. We haven't. As ever the logic is quite simple. Follow the money.....or lack of it.

Del.Monte

If Athenry/Claremorris were reopened it would be used by more than two freight trains a day. The reinstated passenger service would there too - Galway/Tuam; Limerick/Claremorris; Belmond tourist trains, GAA specials, Knock specials, God knows, maybe even bicycle specials bringing bikes and people to Westport for the Greenway. Build it and they will come.

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

If Athenry/Claremorris were reopened it would be used by more than two freight trains a day. The reinstated passenger service would there too - Galway/Tuam; Limerick/Claremorris; Belmond tourist trains, GAA specials, Knock specials, God knows, maybe even bicycle specials bringing bikes and people to Westport for the Greenway. Build it and they will come.

Ah yes the good old days of GAA specials, guess what peopled drive to matches now, Knock Specials one weekend in July guess what people drive to Westport now, and as I said two freight trains a day - because guess what if freight traffic does happen to increase all that will happen is the two trains a day will just become longer....And remember the forecast increase being used by West on Crack is the most optimistic one in the WDC sponsored report (another body deeply engrossed in West on Crack), so is highly unlikely to materialize. Get used to the idea that the Railway will not be extended to Claremorris because guess what we ain't got the money! and Europe won't give it to us. Hey ho round we go

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

If Athenry/Claremorris were reopened it would be used by more than two freight trains a day. The reinstated passenger service would there too - Galway/Tuam; Limerick/Claremorris; Belmond tourist trains, GAA specials, Knock specials, God knows, maybe even bicycle specials bringing bikes and people to Westport for the Greenway. Build it and they will come.

When I close my eye and read this (sic)- I see men with specked caps, brown coats and dark rimmed glasses. I see women with floral headscarves and shiney black hand bags. I smell smoke from damp turf and the throaty fumes of a paraffin heater. I hear cars backfiring and old men telling young boys to "slow down"as they pass on their older brother's breakless bar bike. I see priests with ankle length robes and guards in cortinas. I see Mayo men with eyes on Sam Maguire with genuine hope. I hear the creaking gates swinging open and closed at Abbey Trinity by the man from the gatehouse. I smell the sweet smoke of beet from the campaign factory stack and taste a faint trace of sugar as the plume passes. I hear drivers shout at sheep "feck off the track" and the fumes of diesel lingering well after he passes. I was there too. Thanks for the memories. Now lets move on for God's sake.

Del.Monte

Muckyboots wrote: »

When I close my eye and read this (sic)- I see men with specked caps, brown coats and dark rimmed glasses. I see women with floral headscarves and shiney black hand bags. I smell smoke from damp turf and the throaty fumes of a paraffin heater. I hear cars backfiring and old men telling young boys to "slow down"as they pass on their older brother's breakless bar bike. I see priests with ankle length robes and guards in cortinas. I see Mayo men with eyes on Sam Maguire with genuine hope. I hear the creaking gates swinging open and closed at Abbey Trinity by the man from the gatehouse. I smell the sweet smoke of beet from the campaign factory stack and taste a faint trace of sugar as the plume passes. I hear drivers shout at sheep "feck off the track" and the fumes of diesel lingering well after he passes. I was there too. Thanks for the memories. Now lets move on for God's sake.

Do you do the Guinness TV Ads for a living?

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

If Athenry/Claremorris were reopened it would be used by more than two freight trains a day. The reinstated passenger service would there too - Galway/Tuam; Limerick/Claremorris; Belmond tourist trains, GAA specials, Knock specials, God knows, maybe even bicycle specials bringing bikes and people to Westport for the Greenway. Build it and they will come.

You are a mad oul troll sometimes. We should run a railtour.:D

Carawaystick

Del.Monte wrote: »

The reinstated passenger service would there too - Galway/Tuam; Limerick/Claremorris; Belmond tourist trains, GAA specials, Knock specials,

Just curious,
How many Belmont Grand Hiberninan services will run this month?
How many GAA Specials will run this month?
Like in the whole country?
I know there were 2 soccer specials to from Connolly from Cork and Dundalk, but there'll be no more til next fai cup final day.

what_traffic

BARRY KENNY has a letter re rail numbers in todays IT. WRC is mentioned. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/rail-passenger-numbers-1.2858116

L1011

Del.Monte wrote: »

What's traffic like on the Clonsilla/M3 Parkway route like?

Two trains an hour, seats full at Hansfield at directional peak.

625 pax on the rail survey day. Possibly more pax a day than Athenry-Ennis has a month.

westtip

what_traffic wrote: »

BARRY KENNY has a letter re rail numbers in todays IT. WRC is mentioned. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/rail-passenger-numbers-1.2858116

Cant find the letter or article he was responding to on November 4th anyone else got it?

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

Cant find the letter or article he was responding to on November 4th anyone else got it?

Doesn't seem to be online.

mayo.mick

serfboard wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be online.

What was the name of the article?

https://www.thepcmanwebsite.com/google_page_cache_checker.shtml

westtip

got that letter from a reliable source.

Barry Kennys letter has put the West on Crack research firmly in its place for dispelling yet more mythsL

Barry Kennys letter in full here and then read the claims of Cicero comms.

Rail passenger numbers


S

ir, – Kealan Flynn ( November 4th) draws an inconsistent and misleading comparison between passenger numbers on the Dublin/Belfast line and the Limerick/Galway line.
First, the figures are based on a one-day unscientific snapshot census, rather than a comprehensive assessment of total annual passenger numbers. Second, the Galway/Limerick passenger numbers quoted in fact include commuter totals for Limerick/Ennis and Athenry/Galway, while the Dublin/Belfast passenger numbers quoted exclude the millions of annual commuters between Co Louth and Dublin on that line.
Therefore, comparing like with like, Dublin/Belfast had 1.1 million cross-Border passenger journeys in 2015, with 5.8 million journeys, including the northern commuter line (but excluding northside DART services). Limerick/Galway had 102,000 journeys utilising the new section of line, with 279,000 journeys when the commuter sections are included.
Ultimately it will be the sustainability of funding – through a combination of fares, public service obligation (PSO) payments and infrastructure funding – that will decide the future scale of our network and level of services, and we look forward to the forthcoming publication of the rail review document and associated public consultation, which will prompt debate and inform the strategic choices for the future of our rail network. – Yours, etc,
BARRY KENNY,
Corporate
Communications Manager,
Iarnród Éireann,
Connolly Station, Dublin 1.

Sam Russell

Using his figures for Ennis to Athenry, suggest total passenger numbers of an average of 279 (I assume that is for both directions so 140 each way) on trains that run 5 services each way.

An average of 28 passengers per service is more like a minibus service to me.

102,000 passengers per year at €10 per journey gives just over €1m. Some (most) might be free social welfare customers.

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

Using his figures for Ennis to Athenry, suggest total passenger numbers of an average of 279 (I assume that is for both directions so 140 each way) on trains that run 5 services each way.

An average of 28 passengers per service is more like a minibus service to me.

102,000 passengers per year at €10 per journey gives just over €1m. Some (most) might be free social welfare customers.

Your evidence for this is?

Sam Russell

Del.Monte wrote: »

Your evidence for this is?

I assume that, judging by my experience of travelling on the Galway Heuston train, and on other trips on the western half of the country, that more than 50% of passengers are FTP users. It is only observation, but the figures are not broken out in the quoted letter.

Now I have no quarrel with people travelling on the FTP (in fact I think it is vital for many users who have it to travel as it improves their social interaction and thus their well being) but it does impact on the viability of a service that has such a low level of use. CIE do not get paid per journey for the FTP.

The FTP is a vital benefit for those that qualify for it, but it should not justify a service that has few full fare paying passengers. If you have evidence of the numbers that use it on that service, then please post those numbers.

My point is that with just an average of 28 passengers per journey, a minibus would provide a quicker and cheaper service.

Idbatterim

Absolute joke. You can be sure many who pay for transport. Wouldn't be taking the much more expensive train. Shut the line down. I'd be ok with subsidising services at minor losses. But I'm very eager to see the breakdowns!

Muckyboots

what_traffic wrote: »

BARRY KENNY has a letter re rail numbers in todays IT. WRC is mentioned. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/rail-passenger-numbers-1.2858116

Serfboard said on an earlier post- "How things get done in government - if you think a plan or policy will be welcomed, you announce it. If you think it won't, you leak it, either directly or indirectly (as seems to be in this case). Bake it in the oven of public opinion for two weeks and guage the reaction. If a massive or major reaction, deny and rescind the plan. If little to no reaction, carry it out."
Colm McCarthy. Barry Kenny. Govieleaks. Not looking good for the "throwing good money after bad" advocates.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

My point is that with just an average of 28 passengers per journey, a minibus would provide a quicker and cheaper service.

to who, because they're would be nobody on board that minny bus unlike the train. nobody is going to waste their time using an unreliable minny bus when they can just take the car.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Shut the line down.

not going to happen. we need to get used to the fact this line isn't going anywhere whether we like it or not. other more used lines will go before it if it comes to it. that has always been the way and always will be the way, because something from the 1930s or something.

Vic_08

end of the road wrote: »

to who, because they're would be nobody on board that minny bus unlike the train. nobody is going to waste their time using an unreliable minny bus when they can just take the car.

The 30+ commercially operated coach services between Limerick and Galway daily versus 5 WRC tains says otherwise. But this has all been said a hundred times before so no doubt you will pay no heed to the 101th time.

end of the road

Vic_08 wrote: »

The 30+ commercially operated coach services between Limerick and Galway daily versus 5 WRC tains says otherwise. But this has all been said a hundred times before so no doubt you will pay no heed to the 101th time.

because it's not relevant to those using the train service. bus is a completely different market. if you replaced the train tomorrow the rail users would take the car. this has happened a plenty both here and the uk. but no doubt people will ignore that. look it makes no odds to me what happens the line but we need to get over this 1960s ideals of "we have bus so we don't need rail anywhere"

Idbatterim

because it's not relevant to those using the train service. bus is a completely different market. if you replaced the train tomorrow the rail users would take the car. this has happened a plenty both here and the uk. but no doubt people will ignore that. look it makes no odds to me what happens the line but we need to get over this 1960s ideals of "we have bus so we don't need rail anywhere"

I dont think anyone is saying, "we havebus so we dont need rail" I would like to know what amount on that line are using a free travel pass. Because the numbers are a joke even with them and I am assuming they make up a significant enough chunk of the patronage. People dont want to pay for anything, fine, but dont expect a loss making duplicated service, while you swan around with unlimited travel on said loss making services.

Sam Russell

end of the road wrote: »

to who, because they're would be nobody on board that minny bus unlike the train. nobody is going to waste their time using an unreliable minny bus when they can just take the car.



not going to happen. we need to get used to the fact this line isn't going anywhere whether we like it or not. other more used lines will go before it if it comes to it. that has always been the way and always will be the way, because something from the 1930s or something.

Exactly, that line is not a service that can be remotely considered viable and has no future.

An average of 28 passengers (some of whom are on FTP) can be considered anything but a hopeless loss to IR. I would like to know how many of those 28 passengers pay the €10 fare.

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

because it's not relevant to those using the train service. bus is a completely different market. if you replaced the train tomorrow the rail users would take the car.

You could probably replace the train service with a hackney service and still loose less money...

westtip

Sam Russell wrote: »

Using his figures for Ennis to Athenry, suggest total passenger numbers of an average of 279 (I assume that is for both directions so 140 each way) on trains that run 5 services each way.

An average of 28 passengers per service is more like a minibus service to me.

102,000 passengers per year at €10 per journey gives just over €1m. Some (most) might be free social welfare customers.

Well the West on Crack sponsored report actually said about 20% were social welfare/pension customers, so revenue is about £800,000 per annm

Idbatterim

Well the West on Crack sponsored report actually said about 20% were social welfare/pension customers, so revenue is about £800,000 per annm

ha if 20% is whats coming from WOC, Id like to know the real number. Do we have any idea of how much the worst loss making services are costing us?

Sam Russell

westtip wrote: »

Well the West on Crack sponsored report actually said about 20% were social welfare/pension customers, so revenue is about £800,000 per annm

How much does it cost to run the service? How much does IR lose on the line?

Has last years flood subsided yet?