Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

voz es

marno21 wrote: »

How does it make economic sense to reopen a railway line costing tens of millions to transport irregular, low volumes of "freight"?

Who is going to pay for this? Would make infinite more sense to dual the N17.

Its a regular question, the wondering about who is going to pay for a costing fractional to the many billions splattered in the mid East of the country. There is rural decreases in population for good reason and that is simple lack of investment, or as some would say strategic perishing in the hope our western infrastructure from west cork to Donegal becomes too far gone that they can argue its lack of viability.

I travel regular along the western axis from South Sligo to Limerick, I'm tired after that journey no mater how smooth the road. I'm over taking or getting over taken by piles of cars on the same journey when we could all have a train brining us.
And then I think of cancer patients in Donegal having to travel via bus or car to get their treatment in galway city and do you know what I think it is madness that we don't have rail.

An earlier poster spoke of limited freight, well why would the industry come, would you cast a fishing line into a field in the hope of a fish? no the industry needs to be encouraged to come.

I hope that one day this country will have enough vision to have a passenger and freight train service from cork to Letterkenny and across to Belfast taking in a direct link to Knock airport. I think we need to have faith in ourselves as a society that we can deliver that.

voz es

voz es wrote: »

Its a regular question, the wondering about who is going to pay for a costing fractional to the many billions splattered in the mid East of the country. There is rural decreases in population for good reason and that is simple lack of investment, or as some would say strategic perishing in the hope our western infrastructure from west cork to Donegal becomes too far gone that they can argue its lack of viability.

The rural to urban trend is the same the world over and has been going on for over 2 centuries. Sorry, but your 18th century rail line will not make a dent in that

I travel regular along the western axis from South Sligo to Limerick, I'm tired after that journey no mater how smooth the road. I'm over taking or getting over taken by piles of cars on the same journey when we could all have a train brining us.

You should have a go on a bus, I think you would love it

And then I think of cancer patients in Donegal having to travel via bus or car to get their treatment in galway city and do you know what I think it is madness that we don't have rail.

That's an issue with the health service and a rail service that would take longer than a car would not serve these people well

An earlier poster spoke of limited freight, well why would the industry come, would you cast a fishing line into a field in the hope of a fish?

You would have a better chance of catching something than that line reopening

no the industry needs to be encouraged to come.

Sure, but again, a crap rail line with a poor service will not encourage any industry, period. Any that would be encouraged to setup here already have options in the form of existing, active lines. You would be better off looking to set up incubator locations, fiber connections, industrial hubs etc etc etc

I hope that one day this country will have enough vision to have a passenger and freight train service from cork to Letterkenny and across to Belfast taking in a direct link to Knock airport. I think we need to have faith in ourselves as a society that we can deliver that.

That'll be the year 2255 you'll be looking for. You should just about have the population density then to justify it

Isambard

voz es wrote: »

Its a regular question, the wondering about who is going to pay for a costing fractional to the many billions splattered in the mid East of the country. There is rural decreases in population for good reason and that is simple lack of investment, or as some would say strategic perishing in the hope our western infrastructure from west cork to Donegal becomes too far gone that they can argue its lack of viability.

I travel regular along the western axis from South Sligo to Limerick, I'm tired after that journey no mater how smooth the road. I'm over taking or getting over taken by piles of cars on the same journey when we could all have a train brining us.
And then I think of cancer patients in Donegal having to travel via bus or car to get their treatment in galway city and do you know what I think it is madness that we don't have rail.

An earlier poster spoke of limited freight, well why would the industry come, would you cast a fishing line into a field in the hope of a fish? no the industry needs to be encouraged to come.

I hope that one day this country will have enough vision to have a passenger and freight train service from cork to Letterkenny and across to Belfast taking in a direct link to Knock airport. I think we need to have faith in ourselves as a society that we can deliver that.

there we have it," the "mid-east|" has da Luas , we want the WRC " and "build it and they will come" in the same post. Classic

Muckyboots

voz es wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

How does it make economic sense to reopen a railway line costing tens of millions to transport irregular, low volumes of "freight"?

Who is going to pay for this? Would make infinite more sense to dual the N17.

Its a regular question, the wondering about who is going to pay for a costing fractional to the many billions splattered in the mid East of the country. There is rural decreases in population for good reason and that is simple lack of investment, or as some would say strategic perishing in the hope our western infrastructure from west cork to Donegal becomes too far gone that they can argue its lack of viability.

I travel regular along the western axis from South Sligo to Limerick, I'm tired after that journey no mater how smooth the road. I'm over taking or getting over taken by piles of cars on the same journey when we could all have a train brining us.
And then I think of cancer patients in Donegal having to travel via bus or car to get their treatment in galway city and do you know what I think it is madness that we don't have rail.

An earlier poster spoke of limited freight, well why would the industry come, would you cast a fishing line into a field in the hope of a fish? no the industry needs to be encouraged to come.

I hope that one day this country will have enough vision to have a passenger and freight train service from cork to Letterkenny and across to Belfast taking in a direct link to Knock airport. I think we need to have faith in ourselves as a society that we can deliver that.

...... on the 30mph Western Rail Corridor, or not at all. Cause ya gotta have Faith.

voz es

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The rural to urban trend is the same the world over and has been going on for over 2 centuries. Sorry, but your 18th century rail line will not make a dent in that



You should have a go on a bus, I think you would love it



That's an issue with the health service and a rail service that would take longer than a car would not serve these people well



You would have a better chance of catching something than that line reopening



Sure, but again, a crap rail line with a poor service will not encourage any industry, period. Any that would be encouraged to setup here already have options in the form of existing, active lines. You would be better off looking to set up incubator locations, fiber connections, industrial hubs etc etc etc



That'll be the year 2255 you'll be looking for. You should just about have the population density then to justify it

Lovely, ....
Utter dung but anyhow.

Opinionated crap for all to see...
You are the picky eater when it comes to context

Please please give us some thing other than this unadulterated muck

eastwest

voz es wrote: »

Lovely, ....
Utter dung but anyhow.

Opinionated crap for all to see...
You are the picky eater when it comes to context

Please please give us some thing other than this unadulterated muck

You should read his post properly before condemning it as 'muck', which in your book appears to be anything that disagrees with the narrow view of a closed nineteenth century line as a panacea for all the ills of the west.
The notion that the building of a twisting, slow railway through a thinly populated rural area would create an industrial economy where neither raw materials nor a suitable workforce exists is the stuff of cowboy novels -- it does not address either the problems of the west or the realities.
The flight to the cities is a reality that needs to be addressed, but insisting that mass transit solutions designed for cities are a good use of resources in rural areas is daft. Because they have the DART and the LUAS in Dublin, the notion that we should build the same in the west so that a few pensioners can have a day out is nuts. The DART carries more people in a day or two than the wrc carries in a year, once you use comparable figures.
While a small group of well placed politicians continue to promise city infrastructure in Kiltimagh, the west won't get what it really needs, because the real solutions are not being sought, let alone delivered. It's easier to promise unachievable nonsense and to blame Dublin for the ills of the west, while conveniently forgetting that the east coast pays most of the bills in places whinging for railways.

Muckyboots

voz es wrote: »

Lovely, ....
Utter dung but anyhow.
Opinionated crap for all to see...
You are the picky eater when it comes to context
Please please give us some thing other than this unadulterated muck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZhzxCP0pts

voz es

voz es wrote: »

Lovely, ....
Utter dung but anyhow.

Opinionated crap for all to see...
You are the picky eater when it comes to context

Please please give us some thing other than this unadulterated muck

So no logical, reasoned, fact based response then, ok

pong ping

The Western Rail corridor will eventually get a passenger and freight service running on it, That's despite the name calling, the insults and the stalking being undertaken by certain well known greenway activists. I think the dame has been well and truly up for the greenway idea for a long time and it isn't because of anything that pro rail politicians and activists have done, it's entirely because a few individuals think its acceptable to use this thread as their personal star chamber, making threats and sly remarks.

The game is up lads, you won't get your greenway. And you were the ones who stopped it yourselves. Voz es, you are not alone and change is coming. Thanks for giving the bullies a taste of their own medicine.

eastwest

pong ping wrote: »

The Western Rail corridor will eventually get a passenger and freight service running on it, That's despite the name calling, the insults and the stalking being undertaken by certain well known greenway activists. I think the dame has been well and truly up for the greenway idea for a long time and it isn't because of anything that pro rail politicians and activists have done, it's entirely because a few individuals think its acceptable to use this thread as their personal star chamber, making threats and sly remarks.

The game is up lads, you won't get your greenway. And you were the ones who stopped it yourselves. Voz es, you are not alone and change is coming. Thanks for giving the bullies a taste of their own medicine.

The first time I read this I thought 'what an idiot!', but then I read it again and realised you were being ironic. My apologies, good post. Clearly what you are rather cleverly getting across is that people who believe that a train is coming on that route should be patted on the head and told 'of course it is.'

Isambard

Ask yourself, how many new jobs have resulted in the re-opening between Ennis and Athenry, how many tonnes of freight have shifted on to the line from the roads.... if the answer is "none" in both cases for a line connecting two Cities, ask yourself how sucessful a line from Athenry to the Boondocks would be. It's a no-brainer.

I don't care if there's a Greenway or not, that's a side issue. What I don't want to see is hundreds of millions more wasted.

eastwest

Isambard wrote: »

Ask yourself, how many new jobs have resulted in the re-opening between Ennis and Athenry, how many tonnes of freight have shifted on to the line from the roads.... if the answer is "none" in both cases for a line connecting two Cities, ask yourself how sucessful a line from Athenry to the Boondocks would be. It's a no-brainer.

I don't care if there's a Greenway or not, that's a side issue. What I don't want to see is hundreds of millions more wasted.

But they have the LUAS and the DART up.in Dublin....

Isambard

eastwest wrote: »

But they have the LUAS and the DART up.in Dublin....

yes and what they should be campaigning for is a better service to Dublin. I'd support spending on the various existing lines to Dublin but not on the WRC White Elephant.

westtip

voz es wrote: »

Its a regular question, the wondering about who is going to pay for a costing fractional to the many billions splattered in the mid East of the country. There is rural decreases in population for good reason and that is simple lack of investment, or as some would say strategic perishing in the hope our western infrastructure from west cork to Donegal becomes too far gone that they can argue its lack of viability.

I travel regular along the western axis from South Sligo to Limerick, I'm tired after that journey no mater how smooth the road. I'm over taking or getting over taken by piles of cars on the same journey when we could all have a train brining us.
And then I think of cancer patients in Donegal having to travel via bus or car to get their treatment in galway city and do you know what I think it is madness that we don't have rail.

An earlier poster spoke of limited freight, well why would the industry come, would you cast a fishing line into a field in the hope of a fish? no the industry needs to be encouraged to come.

I hope that one day this country will have enough vision to have a passenger and freight train service from cork to Letterkenny and across to Belfast taking in a direct link to Knock airport. I think we need to have faith in ourselves as a society that we can deliver that.

It is called Utopia and is not going to happen, however I do recommend you keep taking the pills.

westtip

pong ping wrote: »

The Western Rail corridor will eventually get a passenger and freight service running on it, That's despite the name calling, the insults and the stalking being undertaken by certain well known greenway activists. I think the dame has been well and truly up for the greenway idea for a long time and it isn't because of anything that pro rail politicians and activists have done, it's entirely because a few individuals think its acceptable to use this thread as their personal star chamber, making threats and sly remarks.

The game is up lads, you won't get your greenway. And you were the ones who stopped it yourselves. Voz es, you are not alone and change is coming. Thanks for giving the bullies a taste of their own medicine.

Fairly emotive stuff old chap, now steady on! However lets get away from the emotion shall we and accusing good citizens of being bullies!!! (hilarious stuff by the way). Let's examine how official thinking is going:

Sligo county plan: Now accepts a greenway is the way to go.
Mayo County council: Being challenged on their attitude to a greenway by the good citizens of Kiltimagh.
Galway county council on the brink of saying ok lets have a greenway study, pending the outcome of a rail review.

and probably the best of all, The North West Regional Assembly saying this in a recently published document about economic, social an infrastructure issue on page 22 of a document called REGIONAL SPATIAL AND ECONOMIC STRATEGY ISSUES PAPER - as I say published only recently.

This is what this said about the Western Rail Corridor:

6.4 Air & Rail Infrastructure
6.4.1 Rail
The Western region is relatively well served with
rail connectivity. The freight line out of Ballina
(to Waterford) is one of the most successful and
effective lines in the country. However north of
Sligo and along our border communities there
are no services.
The Western Rail Corridor is a long standing
preserved corridor, and County Development
Plans in Mayo, Sligo & Galway recognise the
need to preserve the line, whether for rail
(passenger and, or freight), or for an alternative
use, such as a Greenway project, or indeed
both. The retention and preservation of publicly
owned lines should remain a key public priority,
and indeed the railway line in some parts of our
Region are already earmarked for trails, whether
walking routes, or greenways, or a combination.

You see, I don't think (I might be wrong) they were bullied into putting this into such a key strategic publication, I might be wrong. You can read the document in full here http://www.nwra.ie/wp-content/uploads/NWRA-RSES-Issues-Paper.pdf

By the way this is what the NWRegional Assembly key issues document sees as the key questions, question 2 looks interesting, again these are on page 22 maybe the bullies made them ask that

1. Is there scope for increasing rail activity from the region or into the region?
2. Are there Rail projects within our Region which should be identified as priority, and are there rail-lines which are currently unused which could be utilised for alternative recreational uses?

Now take your emotive accusations and shove them politely where they belong and have a look at how official thinking is actually going because as a keen advocate of using the closed railway as something useful, I would say things are looking quite positive about the greenway, but who knows, it may continue to pay the politicians to offset both sides of this debate and do nothing.....

voz es

Even when you include, in addition to the tailpipe, the CO2 emissions from infrastructure, fuel production and the supply chain, on average rail will still have a lower carbon footprint than road travel, when comparing life-cycle to life-cycle

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/greener-travel-car-or-rail

Just for our environmentally minded readers

eastwest

voz es wrote: »

Even when you include, in addition to the tailpipe, the CO2 emissions from infrastructure, fuel production and the supply chain, on average rail will still have a lower carbon footprint than road travel, when comparing life-cycle to life-cycle

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/greener-travel-car-or-rail

Just for our environmentally minded readers

That's irrelevant to this debate for a number of reasons.
1. It only applies to trains pulling full loads; hauling empty rolling stock around the country is not environmentally sound.
2. You ignore the scattered nature of the population in the west, and the carbon consumed in getting them to and from railheads.

westtip

voz es wrote: »

Even when you include, in addition to the tailpipe, the CO2 emissions from infrastructure, fuel production and the supply chain, on average rail will still have a lower carbon footprint than road travel, when comparing life-cycle to life-cycle

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/greener-travel-car-or-rail

Just for our environmentally minded readers

Is that the smell of CO2 emissions I can smell emanating from the internet or is it just plain old BS

And bikes are lower again, another reason for the Greenway to be built

JCX BXC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And bikes are lower again, another reason for the Greenway to be built

For the purpose of this argument, that makes no sense.

You try 'cycling' 27 wagons of cargo along the Greenway

Muckyboots

JCX BXC wrote: »

For the purpose of this argument, that makes no sense.

You try 'cycling' 27 wagons of cargo along the Greenway

With the potential for new cargo, looking for a new route on the WRC, that may not be as difficult as you think. I reckon a Deliveroo man could do the job, no probs - and faster than the proposed train too.

westtip

JCX BXC wrote: »

For the purpose of this argument, that makes no sense.

You try 'cycling' 27 wagons of cargo along the Greenway

Ah the old freight chestnut and that wonderful report which cost what was it? €17K of tax payers money to tell us there was no real demand to re-open the WRC for freight from the west. Let's remind ourselves of how that piece of propaganda failed WOT, and just to remind readers how this freight argument can be well and truly knocked on the head, here are some facts about this report which is now gathering dust at the Western Development Commission:

The WDC commissioned the report into Rail Freight and the Western Region in March of 2015 at a cost of €17,000. The report was produced by a UK based rail consultant Intermodality which has been involved in several rail freight projects in the UK. The report was released on the WDC.ie website on 17th December 2015 http://www.wdc.ie/publications/reports-and-papers/.

There was nothing in the report that suggested that rail freight from the West of Ireland will demand more railway lines. The report certainly highlighted the need for longer freight trains to make freight more competitive which would require infrastructural investment. For example, better and longer passing loops on our existing railway lines would help the case for more freight in and out of the West of Ireland.

The report highlighted the number of freight trains per day going in and out of the West of Ireland at about 4 per day (4.3.17 page 46, 2 inbound trains 2 outbound), which is hardly enough to justify new railway lines.

Extensive “bottom up” analysis involved trade research with industry in the region showed that there is potential for about another 2 freight trains per day in and out of the region, again not enough to re-open a new railway line. The report also covered what it called “speculative freight increase” to a level of 10-14 freight trains a day by 2050. This kind of speculation has to be taken for what it is, pure speculation, there is no realistic reason to accept that rail freight to and from the West of Ireland is going to increase fourfold anytime in the near to medium future.

The realisitic forecasts for Rail Freight are still quite low even in a report the WDC tried to load with pro-WOT propaganda and the speculative forecasts really had no foundation apart from pure speculation.

The increased freight argument is pure bunkum. Thought it was worth pulling out some of the analysis of that ill fated report that was meant to be a propaganda coup for the WDC/WOT.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

And bikes are lower again, another reason for the Greenway to be built

Not to mention electric cars which we will all be driving by 2030 when European TEN-T policy will be reviewed, oh haven't West on Track folk on this thread mentioned that European policy! Tough pill to swallow for them that one!

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Ah the old freight chestnut and that wonderful report which cost what was it? €17K of tax payers money to tell us there was no real demand to re-open the WRC for freight from the west. Let's remind ourselves of how that piece of propaganda failed WOT, and just to remind readers how this freight argument can be well and truly knocked on the head, here are some facts about this report which is now gathering dust at the Western Development Commission:

The WDC commissioned the report into Rail Freight and the Western Region in March of 2015 at a cost of €17,000. The report was produced by a UK based rail consultant Intermodality which has been involved in several rail freight projects in the UK. The report was released on the WDC.ie website on 17th December 2015 http://www.wdc.ie/publications/reports-and-papers/.

There was nothing in the report that suggested that rail freight from the West of Ireland will demand more railway lines. The report certainly highlighted the need for longer freight trains to make freight more competitive which would require infrastructural investment. For example, better and longer passing loops on our existing railway lines would help the case for more freight in and out of the West of Ireland.

The report highlighted the number of freight trains per day going in and out of the West of Ireland at about 4 per day (4.3.17 page 46, 2 inbound trains 2 outbound), which is hardly enough to justify new railway lines.

Extensive “bottom up” analysis involved trade research with industry in the region showed that there is potential for about another 2 freight trains per day in and out of the region, again not enough to re-open a new railway line. The report also covered what it called “speculative freight increase” to a level of 10-14 freight trains a day by 2050. This kind of speculation has to be taken for what it is, pure speculation, there is no realistic reason to accept that rail freight to and from the West of Ireland is going to increase fourfold anytime in the near to medium future.

The realisitic forecasts for Rail Freight are still quite low even in a report the WDC tried to load with pro-WOT propaganda and the speculative forecasts really had no foundation apart from pure speculation.

The increased freight argument is pure bunkum. Thought it was worth pulling out some of the analysis of that ill fated report that was meant to be a propaganda coup for the WDC/WOT.

The recent trialling of longer goods trains by Irish Rail points to fewer trains coming out of Mayo, even allowing for an incremental increase in tonnage.
There is simply no argument for a second freight line to serve mayo, and the foynes argument doesn't hold water.
In truth, the only thing that holds water is the wrc north of ennis.

Consonata

I wonder will at some stage, this thread be renamed to the "Western Greenway" since that is effectively what is being discussed here 90% of the time.

eastwest

Consonata wrote: »

I wonder will at some stage, this thread be renamed to the "Western Greenway" since that is effectively what is being discussed here 90% of the time.

It's a valid point, and very timely given the approaching season.
After all, the greenway is a reality -- only the timeline is at issue. The western rail corridor, like santa clause, is a myth.

Muckyboots

"A SENIOR official with Mayo County Council has told councillors that the goal for the county is to have 200km of Greenways which will ‘separate’ Mayo from the rest of country and make the county the destination of choice for cyclists."
http://www.mayonews.ie/news/31106-louisburgh-greenway-to-start-in-earnest-in-2018 This quote explains why Mayo execs, TD's & Cllrs are happy to obstruct Greenways everywhere else around them. Time to pull on the south of the line maroon jerseys and north of the line black jerseys from here on.

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

"A SENIOR official with Mayo County Council has told councillors that the goal for the county is to have 200km of Greenways which will ‘separate’ Mayo from the rest of country and make the county the destination of choice for cyclists."
http://www.mayonews.ie/news/31106-louisburgh-greenway-to-start-in-earnest-in-2018 This quote explains why Mayo execs, TD's & Cllrs are happy to obstruct Greenways everywhere else around them. Time to pull on the south of the line maroon jerseys and north of the line black jerseys from here on.

Not to mention stopping a greenway in East Mayo on the closed railway, because when Mayo coco talk greenways and tourism East Mayo is in a black hole they refuse to acknowledge exists.

Hugh Jampton

Muckyboots wrote: »

This quote explains why Mayo execs, TD's & Cllrs are happy to obstruct Greenways everywhere else around them. Time to pull on the south of the line maroon jerseys and north of the line black jerseys from here on.

Interesting observation. Weren’t the council promoting a greenway from Claremorris to Ballinrobe?

As an aside, this letter from one of the prominent greenway campaigners to the Irish Times two years ago hasn’t worn particularly well, given the lack of cure to traffic issues by the motorway.

Sir, The supportive editorial for a greenway on the route of the western rail corridor north of Tuam was very welcome.
However, you suggested a commuter route from Athenry to Tuam could make commercial sense. In two years a new motorway will open linking Tuam to Galway by fast dual-carriageway. Bus journey times will not only be reduced significantly but the removal of the Claregalway bottleneck and high-quality bus lanes into Galway city centre will make the bus highly competitive with any proposed commuter rail service.
If a business case is once again presented to reopen the line from Athenry to Tuam and then onto Claremorris, either based on passenger or freight forecasts, we hope the warning “buyer beware” will be attached to any proposal in large red capital letters.
The Western Rail Trail from Athenry to Collooney will be a huge boost to our tourism trade, so why not just get on with it? – Yours, etc,
BRENDAN QUINN,
Enniscrone,
Co Sligo

Isambard

the point of that is that the buses became more competitive than a rail link ever could be on opening of that motorway. The cure to traffic problems is not opening a second rate rail link (as is the southern section which cost €103 million). The cure is to get as many drivers out of their cars and on to cheap frequent buses, running to diverse destinations around the City

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

the point of that is that the buses became more competitive than a rail link ever could be on opening of that motorway. The cure to traffic problems is not opening a second rate rail link (as is the southern section which cost €103 million). The cure is to get as many drivers out of their cars and on to cheap frequent buses, running to diverse destinations around the City

and that isn't going to happen, because car will always be the best form of road transport compared to cheap frequent busses. if you want to get people out of the cars, a rail-based solution will be the only show in town. whether it is viable for galway or not i don't know, but wasting money on busses won't be the answer, as they are unlikely to attract people out of their car compared to something rail-based.

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Interesting observation. Weren’t the council promoting a greenway from Claremorris to Ballinrobe?

As an aside, this letter from one of the prominent greenway campaigners to the Irish Times two years ago hasn’t worn particularly well, given the lack of cure to traffic issues by the motorway.

To be fair to the author of that Times letter, the Tuam bypass motorway has made a huge difference to traffic flows; the claregalway bottleneck is now a thing of the past.
The traffic around Galway was never going to be addressed by the M17; that problem relates to the delay in building the Galway bypass.

marno21

For people going long distance up the west coast, the Claregalway bottleneck is gone. They won't be using a 3 hour train to travel what is 120km by road

For Galway commuters, no rail line is going to solve the issue which is the vast volume of people commuting from low density areas to places on the outskirts of Galway. How many people will get a Tuam-Athenry-Galway train and then a bus out to Parkmore/Ballybrit? A park and ride near Rathmorrissey would be more effective and make use of the M17. 15 minute drive to Rathmorrissey and bus in.

The Tuam-Athenry line is a solution looking for a problem unless we have €100m to burn on wasteful "infrastructure" or tourist attractions for trainspotters.

We can revisit this when someone decides to densify Galway city centre so that people can actually get to their place of work from the train station. Exact same situation at present in Limerikc

end of the road

if they are not going to ditch their car for a rail service, they definitely aren't going to do it for a park and ride to a bus.
if road transport is the only option for galway then the car will be the winner.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

For people going long distance up the west coast, the Claregalway bottleneck is gone. They won't be using a 3 hour train to travel what is 120km by road

For Galway commuters, no rail line is going to solve the issue which is the vast volume of people commuting from low density areas to places on the outskirts of Galway. How many people will get a Tuam-Athenry-Galway train and then a bus out to Parkmore/Ballybrit? A park and ride near Rathmorrissey would be more effective and make use of the M17. 15 minute drive to Rathmorrissey and bus in.

The Tuam-Athenry line is a solution looking for a problem unless we have €100m to burn on wasteful "infrastructure" or tourist attractions for trainspotters.

We can revisit this when someone decides to densify Galway city centre so that people can actually get to their place of work from the train station. Exact same situation at present in Limerikc

But they have the DART and the LUAS in Dublin!

Hugh Jampton

eastwest wrote: »

To be fair to the author of that Times letter, the Tuam bypass motorway has made a huge difference to traffic flows; the claregalway bottleneck is now a thing of the past.
The traffic around Galway was never going to be addressed by the M17; that problem relates to the delay in building the Galway bypass.

So first the M17,then the Galway Bypass. Given that commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway will there be a third tarmac project to solve the problems that were or are supposed to be cured by the first two?

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So first the M17,then the Galway Bypass. Given that commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway will there be a third tarmac project to solve the problems that were or are supposed to be cured by the first two?

They should run a train to every building in every estate, that would fix it and keep the rail lobby happy as well.
Maybe a DART from Tuam to athenry, a train to ceannt, and a luas to Ballybrit and the regional. That would even up.the score with the jackeens.

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So first the M17,then the Galway Bypass. Given that commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway will there be a third tarmac project to solve the problems that were or are supposed to be cured by the first two?

They should run a train to every building in every estate, that would fix it and keep the rail lobby happy as well.
Maybe a DART from Tuam to athenry, a train to ceannt, and a luas to Ballybrit and the regional. That would even up.the score with the jackeens.

serfboard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway

Yes indeed it is. So tell us - how is a slow train service serving a massively dispersed population going to help with this?

Hugh Jampton

serfboard wrote: »

Yes indeed it is. So tell us - how is a slow train service serving a massively dispersed population going to help with this?

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Isambard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

the notion that it would be a slow roundabout service comes from the way that the southern section was rebuilt.
I'm at a loss to understand who you think would need a fast frequent service. Tuam is a very small place with not much likelihood of filling one train never mind a frequent service.

end of the road

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

this is the fundamental issue. we have to grow our cities. to do that, we have to start somewhere. that means building infrastructure, rail infrastructure of some sort, and then building and working around that. yes the infrastructure may be lowly used at first, but if it's there, there is more chance of us being able to grow around it. we will have a blueprint.
the reality is, while we all use roads and they are necessary, we cannot just keep pumping money into more and more of them to try and fail to reduce congestion issues in our cities. it's not going to work. no country that i can find has successfully reduced it's congestion problem by building more and more roads. if we are spending money on roads, spend it on new areas that need good roads, rather then spending more on the same areas, for the problems to continue.
if the m17 isn't going to reduce congestion, and then the galway by-pass isn't going to reduce congestion, then it seems reasonable to suggest that more road construction isn't going to do it either.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

this is the fundamental issue. we have to grow our cities. to do that, we have to start somewhere. that means building infrastructure, rail infrastructure of some sort, and then building and working around that. yes the infrastructure may be lowly used at first, but if it's there, there is more chance of us being able to grow around it. we will have a blueprint.
the reality is, while we all use roads and they are necessary, we cannot just keep pumping money into more and more of them to try and fail to reduce congestion issues in our cities. it's not going to work. no country that i can find has successfully reduced it's congestion problem by building more and more roads. if we are spending money on roads, spend it on new areas that need good roads, rather then spending more on the same areas, for the problems to continue.
if the m17 isn't going to reduce congestion, and then the galway by-pass isn't going to reduce congestion, then it seems reasonable to suggest that more road construction isn't going to do it either.

I agree, more/better roads simply attract more cars. However trains in rural Galway are not the answer. Effective park and ride luring drivers out of their cars into public transport and tolling the City Centre might be the answer.

rebel456

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Why do we have to be creating dormer towns just to make use of an old meandering train line?

Why not build up the density of Galway, make it a proper city, instead of wasting another €100m or so hoping a few folks a day will hop on the indirect train spend that money on a BRT system for Galway City. The higher the density, the greater the population, the more pull Galway has to attract larger companies thus more people.

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

The West on Track campaign has all but given up on passenger services, currently trying and failing to make the case for freight. A rebuild will be another WRC Phase 1 job - lay track on old route, change as little as possible, spend as little as possible, just to claim the line reopened.

serfboard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway

If I want to go from Athenry to Galway tomorrow, there are 17 services, so tick that box for frequency.

There are only two before nine o clock, though.

The time taken varies between 17 minutes and 27 minutes, so not too bad on speed.

There are 13 services from Oranmore, with journey times between 7 and 11 minutes.

Given that you mention Tuam, would your service from Tuam stop at Ballyglunin (and if not get ready for a local backlash)? How long would it take from Tuam to Galway, including a stop at the station in Ballyglunin?

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward.

Which is fine if you're proposing this as a model for Germany or Sweden or some other well-planned country. This is Ireland, and not only has the horse already bolted on that one, but your proposal would receive zero political support. It's all very well telling people what's best for them, but when they elect almost any non-Dublin politician you care to mention, their vote will reflect the fact that one-off housing in the country is what people want.

I know you don't agree with it. Either do I. But it's already happened and will keep happening and will ultimately doom any WRC north of Athenry to failure should it ever be built (which it won't).

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

Of course this is true, but in fact, there are no longer any major traffic problems in County Galway bar what happens in and around Galway City. (To the extent that Claregalway might still be a problem, this is because people tried the motorway, and then went back to using the old road because of the massive jams at Doughiska).

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Nobody is advocating one, just reflecting reality. The Limerick->Galway train takes two hours - the X51 bus takes an hour and 15 minutes. And without the big Intercity populations using it, the Ennis->Athenry line has been a failure. Numbers which include Athenry->Galway and Ennis->Limerick simply don't count because these lines existed before over 100 million Euros was spent.

So what's my solution? Bus Park n Ride mostly and especialy for the industrial estates of Galway. I would maintain the existing Train Park n Ride @ Oranmore (which is excellent) for the city centre.

And again I ask you the question - given that, as you said, "commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway", and given that we have a dispersed population, how is rail going to solve the problem?

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Okay. Start a campaign to double track Athenry to Galway. Run a frequent Park & Ride shuttle service on the line. People could use the new M17 to access it from a wide area. Give up your auld fooling on the rest of the bendy bit until this is shown to be a success. We'll mind it for you in the meantime with a Greenway. See - not anti rail at all.

Del.Monte

Just saw this for sale over on Adverts - get in there first before westtip

https://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/back-on-track-ennis-athenry-railway/14434615

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just saw this for sale over on Adverts - get in there first before westtip

https://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/back-on-track-ennis-athenry-railway/14434615

How much does it cost? Over 100 million Euro?

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

So what's my solution? Bus Park n Ride mostly and especialy for the industrial estates of Galway.

for a bus park and ride to be effective, painted bus lanes aren't really going to cut it, it needs dedicated infrastructure, for which you may as well just get on and build a small light rail system.

Muckyboots wrote: »

Okay. Start a campaign to double track Athenry to Galway. Run a frequent Park & Ride shuttle service on the line. People could use the new M17 to access it from a wide area. Give up your auld fooling on the rest of the bendy bit until this is shown to be a success. We'll mind it for you in the meantime with a Greenway. See - not anti rail at all.

you won't be minding it, but keeping it. it's well known that we will never get it back once it's given over to a greenway.

Hugh Jampton

end of the road wrote: »

you won't be minding it, but keeping it. it's well known that we will never get it back once it's given over to a greenway.

Indeed. Wesley Johnston of the NI Roads blog, reviewing the debacle of the Comber Greenway preventing the reuse of the Belfast and County Down Railway for the Belfast BRT scheme says

Indeed. DFI [the North’s Department for Infrastructure] have learned their lesson. Never again will they give permission for land reserved for a future scheme to be used “in the meantime”.

So, nice try but No Dice.