Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

rebel456

voz es wrote: »

As is well published an analysis of commuting numbers on the reopened line from Ennis to Limerick shows very healthy figures. Happy to highlight that.

voz es wrote: »

Eastwest you appear to quote WOT on every reply you make to my posts. I am not a member of WOT but appreciate what they are trying to do, if you would, could stop trying to link me with WOT as they may well not agree with all my views and I don't represent them. Fair play to them though.

Wagon360 wrote: »

Google is your friend.

If you could please answer which report you're referring to, that would be great. Are you referring to the West on Track report?

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

Primarily commuter services to carry large volumes of people into urban centres, commuter rail in Dublin/Cork and potentially Limerick/Waterford.

Secondly, intercity rail where there is demand and/or the train beats the journey time of the road/the road is quite long (Sligo, Mayo, Kerry). The primary reason for justifying this is that the lines are already open and have no capital costs required, only operating expenses. These lines already have an established customer base. In some cases, demand has fallen due to improved road links (Rosslare line for example).

Thirdly, there is limited opportunities for freight whereby there is considerable consistant volumes to be hauled (Tara Mines) or where the road links are poor (Ballina-Waterford).

Spending €100m on a slow windy rail line in the low density west coast is a poor use of money no matter what your stance is on trains, roads or cycle paths. It's simple economics. There are hundreds of transport projects scoring better on a cost benefit analysis than a railway line with a 9 figure capital cost and continued subvention required, which may be large.

For people apparently interested in rail, some of you seem oblivious to its use. Rail is a poor transport medium for people coming from dispersed backgrounds to a nearby city where they will disperse again and the city has no functioning public transport system. These commuters from Claremorris/Tuam/Dunmore etc that are clogging up the N83 into Claregalway are not going to drive to Tuam railway station, take a slow train to Galway and then get a bus back out to Parkmore. It may be feasible when Galway has a thriving, dense city centre with lots of city centre jobs and attractions. Until then it's a waste of time.

And please don't get started on freight. If there is no freight carried on the WRC phase that connects to a city I can't see why they would transport freight to even smaller locations with dispersed population. And if you want, go ahead and try to justify spending €100m on a freight line to "provide an alternative for infrequent freight trains going from Ballina to Waterford". No one is going to sanction that kind of spend, and employing all those gatekeepers etc for this pipe dream.

This post sums up the realities, and also reinforces my series of questions (so far ignored/unanswered by anyone making the rail argument for this route). Where (specifically) will the money come from for the wrc, and which other national priority will lose its place in the queue to allow the wrc to be built?

Wagon360

eastwest wrote: »

This post sums up the realities, and also reinforces my series of questions (so far ignored/unanswered by anyone making the rail argument for this route). Where (specifically) will the money come from for the wrc, and which other national priority will lose its place in the queue to allow the wrc to be built?

That is the sort of question only policy makers can really answer.

Hugh Jampton

marno21 wrote: »

Primarily commuter services to carry large volumes of people into urban centres, commuter rail in Dublin/Cork and potentially Limerick/Waterford.

Secondly, intercity rail where there is demand and/or the train beats the journey time of the road/the road is quite long (Sligo, Mayo, Kerry). The primary reason for justifying this is that the lines are already open and have no capital costs required, only operating expenses. These lines already have an established customer base. In some cases, demand has fallen due to improved road links (Rosslare line for example).

Thirdly, there is limited opportunities for freight whereby there is considerable consistant volumes to be hauled (Tara Mines) or where the road links are poor (Ballina-Waterford).

Spending €100m on a slow windy rail line in the low density west coast is a poor use of money no matter what your stance is on trains, roads or cycle paths. It's simple economics. There are hundreds of transport projects scoring better on a cost benefit analysis than a railway line with a 9 figure capital cost and continued subvention required, which may be large.

For people apparently interested in rail, some of you seem oblivious to its use. Rail is a poor transport medium for people coming from dispersed backgrounds to a nearby city where they will disperse again and the city has no functioning public transport system. These commuters from Claremorris/Tuam/Dunmore etc that are clogging up the N83 into Claregalway are not going to drive to Tuam railway station, take a slow train to Galway and then get a bus back out to Parkmore. It may be feasible when Galway has a thriving, dense city centre with lots of city centre jobs and attractions. Until then it's a waste of time.

And please don't get started on freight. If there is no freight carried on the WRC phase that connects to a city I can't see why they would transport freight to even smaller locations with dispersed population. And if you want, go ahead and try to justify spending €100m on a freight line to "provide an alternative for infrequent freight trains going from Ballina to Waterford". No one is going to sanction that kind of spend, and employing all those gatekeepers etc for this pipe dream.

So you’d close Athlone to Galway as well. This fixation with ‘slow’ trains is a bit strange too. Creating an Irish problem out of an Irish solution by chucking tarmac at congestion is going to create even more congestion. The other point that you ignore is land use. Rail works best with greater planning densities but no one on the rip up the rails side wants to engage with the development of dense suburbs in Galway and commuter towns in Gort, Athenry and Tuam.

eastwest

Wagon360 wrote: »

That is the sort of question only policy makers can really answer.

Not really. Anyone arguing for the construction of a railway where the last one closed down for lack of use and where the first phase is a flop must surely be able to suggest where the money might come from. Equally, they should be able to give their opinion on what other urgent projects should be prioritised below it.

Hugh Jampton

eastwest wrote: »

Not really. Anyone arguing for the construction of a railway where the last one closed down for lack of use and where the first phase is a flop must surely be able to suggest where the money might come from. Equally, they should be able to give their opinion on what other urgent projects should be prioritised below it.

On that basis, those advocating alternate uses for railways should also be able to calculate and model the scenarios on a ten, twenty and thirty year basis for car based transport and unchanged land use in Galway City and County.

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So you’d close Athlone to Galway as well. This fixation ....

On the contrary, most posters from the alternative use for the WRC argument are suggesting double tracking Athlone to Galway which would also open up potential of more frequent commuter shuttles from Athenry to Galway. Whether this would work as a Park N Ride for a wider area would depend on the "stops" that could be facilitated. Based on the success of this you could then realistically start a campaign for a commuter link to Tuam.

westtip

All I want for Christmas is the Rail Review Report the Minister has been sitting on for three months, it would save us all a lot of pontificating on this thread (including greenway supporters!) if only the Minister would share with us the results of the rail review which massive public consultation, and which clearly is available and finished. Perhaps if this review finally kills off the WRC the inevitable can be accepted and if they are going to build the dam thing could they just get on with it and let us know what the recommendations are?

Hugh Jampton

westtip wrote: »

All I want for Christmas is the Rail Review Report the Minister has been sitting on for three months, it would save us all a lot of pontificating on this thread (including greenway supporters!) if only the Minister would share with us the results of the rail review which had heavy heavy public consultation, and which clearly is available and finished. Perhaps if this review finally kills off the WRC the inevitable can be accepted and if they are going to build the dam thing could they just get on with it and let us know what the recommendations are?

Who knows what the Rail Review has,and whether any putative suggestions will be implemented. Or not. Official Ireland has had a plethora of reports over the last forty years on any number of things, and it is fair to say that not everything recommended has come to pass. Not least in transport.

alias no.9

The former sugar industry in Ireland was heavily dependent on rail freight to bring coal from the ports and sugar beet from all over to 4 main processing centres, Tuam on the WRC route and no longer served by rail, Mallow, Thurles and Carlow, all still on mainline rail.

Replacement industry has been scarce. In the still rail connected areas, Thurles lost its other big factory Erin Foods which is now just a giant eyesore while Carlow gained MSD but also lost Braun. Mallow has no significant new industry. Rail connectivity has offered zero to any of the locations in terms of attracting industry but maybe the west is different and would become an industrial powerhouse if the WRC could only be reopened.

On the surface, rail has aided the transformation of Mallow into a dormitory town for Cork city, Carlow fulfills that role to a somewhat lesser degree for Dublin while Thurles has a surprising number of commuters going both directions by rail despite the distance. But what of Tuam, deprived of its railway? It has also been transformed into a dormitory town for Galway, the public transport element just happens to be bus.

The presence or not of mainline rail in these towns has not made a material difference in attracting new industry and hasn't changed the macro trend of large scale employment opportunities drifting towards larger population centres.

There are countless sites all across the country adjacent to operational railway and close to ports, none of them are attracting industry dependent on rail freight. Building another railway in the hope of attracting such industry is futile. If trends change over time, then this should be reassessed but right now it's utterly pointless.

What should be considered in the west is a masterplan for public transport in Galway including some form of light rail or rapid transit, one that enables further growth in population and in employment without strangling the place even further and ideally alleviate some of the current mess. This in turn can enable employment opportunities in the regional towns for SME's providing goods and services to both the large employers in Galway and to the retail and service economy within the city.

eastwest

alias no.9 wrote: »

The former sugar industry in Ireland was heavily dependent on rail freight to bring coal from the ports and sugar beet from all over to 4 main processing centres, Tuam on the WRC route and no longer served by rail, Mallow, Thurles and Carlow, all still on mainline rail.

Replacement industry has been scarce. In the still rail connected areas, Thurles lost its other big factory Erin Foods which is now just a giant eyesore while Carlow gained MSD but also lost Braun. Mallow has no significant new industry. Rail connectivity has offered zero to any of the locations in terms of attracting industry but maybe the west is different and would become an industrial powerhouse if the WRC could only be reopened.

On the surface, rail has aided the transformation of Mallow into a dormitory town for Cork city, Carlow fulfills that role to a somewhat lesser degree for Dublin while Thurles has a surprising number of commuters going both directions by rail despite the distance. But what of Tuam, deprived of its railway? It has also been transformed into a dormitory town for Galway, the public transport element just happens to be bus.

The presence or not of mainline rail in these towns has not made a material difference in attracting new industry and hasn't changed the macro trend of large scale employment opportunities drifting towards larger population centres.

There are countless sites all across the country adjacent to operational railway and close to ports, none of them are attracting industry dependent on rail freight. Building another railway in the hope of attracting such industry is futile. If trends change over time, then this should be reassessed but right now it's utterly pointless.

What should be considered in the west is a masterplan for public transport in Galway including some form of light rail or rapid transit, one that enables further growth in population and in employment without strangling the place even further and ideally alleviate some of the current mess. This in turn can enable employment opportunities in the regional towns for SME's providing goods and services to both the large employers in Galway and to the retail and service economy within the city.

That's all logical and reasonable, but neither logic nor reason informs much of the pro rail campaign, or more particularly, the opposition by the pro rail campaign to.an interim use of the route to create jobs and to protect the route.
There are shades of the wild west on the whole thing; build that there railroad and folks will move here from back east, building saloons and general stores and bringing dancing girls.
It hasn't worked for Gort.

Del.Monte

Happy Christmas to all the Greenway supporters especially westtip.

Enjoy! Rebirth of the railway can't be far away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEfx5T3G4NQ

Hugh Jampton

According to The Economist Christmas Quiz, the EU country with the highest proportion of government spending as a percentage of GDP is Finland at 58%.

The average percentage in the EU is 46.6%.

Ireland’s percentage is the lowest in the EU at 28%.

Interesting that. It does shed light on the zero-sum game that the Greenway versus Railway argument has become.

Wagon360

eastwest wrote: »

That's all logical and reasonable, but neither logic nor reason informs much of the pro rail campaign, or more particularly, the opposition by the pro rail campaign to.an interim use of the route to create jobs and to protect the route.
There are shades of the wild west on the whole thing; build that there railroad and folks will move here from back east, building saloons and general stores and bringing dancing girls.
It hasn't worked for Gort.

So the word from a Greenway campaigner is “But neither logic or reason informs most of the pro rail campaign”. Well, it’s hardly surprising no one trusts the word of those who claim their proposed tenure of the line would be temporary. That lack of trust and indeed respect for the Greenway campaign is down to frankly bizarre statements like these. As we can clearly see tonight the Greenway campaigners constantly show how mean, nasty and vicious they are. I feel sorry for genuine campaigners like Muckyboots who while I don’t agree with his views I do respect him for galvanising his community into action. But one word of warning, with friends like these...

rebel456

Wagon360 wrote: »

So the word from a Greenway campaigner is “But neither logic or reason informs most of the pro rail campaign”. Well, it’s hardly surprising no one trusts the word of those who claim their proposed tenure of the line would be temporary. That lack of trust and indeed respect for the Greenway campaign is down to frankly bizarre statements like these. As we can clearly see tonight the Greenway campaigners constantly show how mean, nasty and vicious they are. I feel sorry for genuine campaigners like Muckyboots who while I don’t agree with his views I do respect him for galvanising his community into action. But one word of warning, with friends like these...

If I'd a dollar for every time a pro-rail poster labeled the Greenway campaign(ers) as "mean" or "nasty" or "vicious". I'd be a very rich man.

Wagon360

rebel456 wrote: »

If I'd a dollar for every time a pro-rail poster labeled the Greenway campaign(ers) as "mean" or "nasty" or "vicious". I'd be a very rich man.

If had a cent for every time a pro Greenway poster attacked the pro rail campaigners I would be very rich indeed!

rebel456

Wagon360 wrote: »

If had a cent for every time a pro Greenway poster attacked the pro rail campaigners I would be very rich indeed!

Usually one resorts to playing the victim to criticisms of their viewpoint when they have nothing of value to retort with.

JCX BXC

Del.Monte wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEfx5T3G4NQ

Great footage, had been looking for something like it a while back but nothing was in the public domain (at least not from my searches).

Del.Monte

Del.Monte wrote: »

Happy Christmas to all the Greenway supporters especially westtip.

Enjoy! Rebirth of the railway can't be far away.

They must have sent out a weed clearing crew out first, when was the final inspection train run, as it's clear that it would have been impossible in more recent years.

JCX BXC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They must have sent out a weed clearing crew out first, when was the final inspection train run, as it's clear that it would have been impossible in more recent years.

Did you notice the reverse and gather of momentum in order to make it through the level crossing in Claremorris?

JCX BXC

JCX BXC wrote: »

Did you notice the reverse and gather of momentum in order to make it through the level crossing in Claremorris?

Yes that first section didn't look like it was cleared, but along the remainder of the track you can see where someone has cut overhanging branches and cleaned the track at the level crossings etc

JCX BXC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes that first section didn't look like it was cleared, but along the remainder of the track you can see where someone has cut overhanging branches and cleaned the track at the level crossings etc

Could well have just been buckled track at that location!

When did the weed spaying stop? 2002/2003 iirc?

westtip

Wagon360 wrote: »

So the word from a Greenway campaigner is “But neither logic or reason informs most of the pro rail campaign”. Well, it’s hardly surprising no one trusts the word of those who claim their proposed tenure of the line would be temporary. That lack of trust and indeed respect for the Greenway campaign is down to frankly bizarre statements like these. As we can clearly see tonight the Greenway campaigners constantly show how mean, nasty and vicious they are. I feel sorry for genuine campaigners like Muckyboots who while I don’t agree with his views I do respect him for galvanising his community into action. But one word of warning, with friends like these...

My dear chap, seasons greetings, I suggest another glass of port in the meantime accept a few hardtruths we have not got the money for this fantasy project, tootle pip.

Wagon360

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

According to The Economist Christmas Quiz, the EU country with the highest proportion of government spending as a percentage of GDP is Finland at 58%.

The average percentage in the EU is 46.6%.

Ireland’s percentage is the lowest in the EU at 28%.

Interesting that. It does shed light on the zero-sum game that the Greenway versus Railway argument has become.

It's really no surprise that the infrastructure spend by the Irish Government is very small compared to other EU countries. That's why Galway traffic is in a mess and our public transport system is creaking as a whole.

Wagon360

westtip wrote: »

My dear chap, seasons greetings, I suggest another glass of port in the meantime accept a few hardtruths we have not got the money for this fantasy project, tootle pip.

Happy Christmas westtip, hope all is well and you have a pleasant time over the holiday season.

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

Happy Christmas to all the Greenway supporters especially westtip. Great promo film for the velorail crowd in KIltimagh

Consonata

Wagon360 wrote: »

It's really no surprise that the infrastructure spend by the Irish Government is very small compared to other EU countries. That's why Galway traffic is in a mess and our public transport system is creaking as a whole.

Galway could be fixed by light rail, but we're centuries away from that in the current political climate

monument

You can all take a break for Christmas! Report this post after the new year if I haven’t it reopened by then.

Some of you on BOTH sides need to improve your posting — and when reporting posts please keep to the basics (ie, I think this breaking the rules for x reasons) and that’ll help us act (it’s not a place for venting about perceived biases when you’re carding both sides).

For clarity: posters on both sides have been given warning or infractions tonight (disruptive posts only including disruption and/or which has not been replied to were deleted).

Note: there will be bans if people don’t cop on.

Happy Christmas all!

monument

Thread opened again -- posters should not need further warnings here... any messing and bans will be given out.

westtip

More bus lanes for Tuam to Galway means less liklihood of demands for railways not needed: (oh except for industrial waste to trundle through Tuam on them there freight trains)

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/12/20/4149942-councils-to-discuss-tuam-road-bus-lanes-in-january/

marno21

westtip wrote: »

More bus lanes for Tuam to Galway means less liklihood of demands for railways not needed: (oh except for industrial waste to trundle through Tuam on them there freight trains)

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/12/20/4149942-councils-to-discuss-tuam-road-bus-lanes-in-january/

It's high time that a QBC was created on the old N17 into Galway. There is no need for two Tuam-Galway roads dedicated entirely to cars

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

More bus lanes for Tuam to Galway means less liklihood of demands for railways not needed

not true, rail and light rail when done properly have a proven track record of attracting greater usage then busses ever could. while yes we know ireland's intercity bus market is doing well it really is an anomaly from what i can find and i couldn't see the trend being bucked on galway local routes and bus lanes attracting a huge shift to bus services. that's not to say they should never be built, but ultimately a light rail solution is the better and most attractive solution. give it traffic priority and implement a congestion charge and galway could be what dublin could have been (and still could be if there was political will) a fully public transport and pedestrian friendly city.

Quackster

Spent the last few days in Dungarvan. The town was hopping. I was there to finally try out the new greenway - I cycled to Waterford with a rental bike from one of the local companies that have popped up on the back of this new infrastructure.

I must say that it surpassed all my expectations. The work was done to a very high standard and the patronage I observed while I was using it was excellent all among its length.

From what I observed and from talking to locals in Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas, this is having an enormous economic benefit and the clamour is on now to extend it both eastwards and westwards.

As more greenways open, the body of evidence in support of their benefits to their communities just keeps growing and I've absolutely no doubt that we'll see progress on the Western Rail Trail sooner rather than later.

Wagon360

Quackster wrote: »

Spent the last few days in Dungarvan. The town was hopping. I was there to finally try out the new greenway - I cycled to Waterford with a rental bike from one of the local companies that have popped up on the back of this new infrastructure.

I must say that it surpassed all my expectations. The work was done to a very high standard and the patronage I observed while I was using it was excellent all among its length.

From what I observed and from talking to locals in Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas, this is having an enormous economic benefit and the clamour is on now to extend it both eastwards and westwards.

As more greenways open, the body of evidence in support of their benefits to their communities just keeps growing and I've absolutely no doubt that we'll see progress on the Western Rail Trail sooner rather than later.

I’m certainly for a Western Rail Trail. Having taken part in two long distance cycle rides in past two years along North Donegal and the west coast I can see that Ireland would greatly benefit from adding a Greenway to the Wild Atlantic Way. The Western Rail Trail on the Wild Atlantic Way could connect the railheads at Derry, Sligo, Ballina, Westport, Clifden (for the Galway-Clifden route), Limerick via the West Clare coast, Tralee, Valentia and onwards to Cork, all along the coast without the need to rip up a single inch of rail; instead making the most of the rail connections of the West to get tourists to the trail.

Imagine if we could take a safe cycle route all the way from Muff to Mizen. Cyclists would be rewarded with spectacular scenery and a safe route.

The time for the Wild Atlantic Greenway has come. Let’s start to make it a reality.

Stephen15

Quackster wrote: »

Spent the last few days in Dungarvan. The town was hopping. I was there to finally try out the new greenway - I cycled to Waterford with a rental bike from one of the local companies that have popped up on the back of this new infrastructure.

I must say that it surpassed all my expectations. The work was done to a very high standard and the patronage I observed while I was using it was excellent all among its length.

From what I observed and from talking to locals in Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas, this is having an enormous economic benefit and the clamour is on now to extend it both eastwards and westwards.

As more greenways open, the body of evidence in support of their benefits to their communities just keeps growing and I've absolutely no doubt that we'll see progress on the Western Rail Trail sooner rather than later.

I'm surprised it was so busy I would have thought it was more of a summertime pursuit when the weather is better and the evenings are longer. I did it last summer and I must say I really enjoyed it I must say but I found the scenery around Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas very nice, the only about extending it to other ex railway lines is that they are not all as scenic or picturesque as the Waterford line for example I know people who did the Killing at to Athlone Rail Trail and they said it was crap as the scenery was dull and boring.

Generally the scenery in the West and Midlands is fairly dull and boring I can't speak for all disused lines but I think a greenway would only do well in parts of the country that are picturesque perhaps by the sea as that's where most of the nice scenery and nice towns are.

eastwest

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm surprised it was so busy I would have thought it was more of a summertime pursuit when the weather is better and the evenings are longer. I did it last summer and I must say I really enjoyed it I must say but I found the scenery around Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas very nice, the only about extending it to other ex railway lines is that they are not all as scenic or picturesque as the Waterford line for example I know people who did the Killing at to Athlone Rail Trail and they said it was crap as the scenery was dull and boring.

Generally the scenery in the West and Midlands is fairly dull and boring I can't speak for all disused lines but I think a greenway would only do well in parts of the country that are picturesque perhaps by the sea as that's where most of the nice scenery and nice towns are.

'Scenery" isn't just mountains and lakes, it's open countryside devoid of ribbon development, it's bogs and forests and rural scenes. It's castles and hills and even old railway infrastructure. It's hedgerows and wildlife.
Most of all, however, greenways are about safe places to cycle and walk away from traffic. Go to kilmacthomas this week and see for yourself.

westtip

Stephen15 wrote: »

Generally the scenery in the West and Midlands is fairly dull and boring I can't speak for all disused lines but I think a greenway would only do well in parts of the country that are picturesque perhaps by the sea as that's where most of the nice scenery and nice towns are.

The old "scenery argument" was actually used by West on Track in a submission made on the Mayo county plan three years ago; strange really as West on Track have been vocal in supporting the velo-rail option for the closed railway when it passes through Kiltimagh; where the track goes through little but bogland and in truth the scenery is not the most exciting, so don't think the tourists will be flocking for the scenery on that section of the closed railway. In sligo I think sligo greenway co-op may have a different view on scenery as the railway passes the base of the ox mountains, and as it moves towards Mayo fine views toward Nephin and Croagh Patrick, take a look here http://www.sligogreenway.com/ the real issue though is not breathtaking scenery on every stretch of the way it is being able to get on a bike in Dublin and cycle to Sligo via Dublin Galway Greenway and turning north onto the Western Rail Trail at Athenry without encountering a single car, truck or bus, with the option of course to swing west towards Westport and the Great Western Greenway if it can be connected to the Western Rail Trail in and around Charlestown..... Cycling or just strolling along in pure safety. oh and getting off for a pint a steak and a nights rest every evening spending tourist euros dollars and pounds in places like Tuam Tubbercurry Charlestown Kiltimagh etc that simply see the tourists driving through normally. That is the economic benefit of the long distance greenways, spreading the tourist euro to places that will benefit most, rural town regeneration..... there have been enough reports written about it. Hey ho happy new year the message remains the same. Here is to 2018 folks

eastwest

Quackster wrote: »

Spent the last few days in Dungarvan. The town was hopping. I was there to finally try out the new greenway - I cycled to Waterford with a rental bike from one of the local companies that have popped up on the back of this new infrastructure.

I must say that it surpassed all my expectations. The work was done to a very high standard and the patronage I observed while I was using it was excellent all among its length.

From what I observed and from talking to locals in Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas, this is having an enormous economic benefit and the clamour is on now to extend it both eastwards and westwards.

As more greenways open, the body of evidence in support of their benefits to their communities just keeps growing and I've absolutely no doubt that we'll see progress on the Western Rail Trail sooner rather than later.

It will be extended to Dublin over the next couple of years. The west, as usual, is asleep.

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/229739/73-in-favour-of-barrow-tow-path-in-www-kilkennypeople-ie-online-poll.html

Hugh Jampton

eastwest wrote: »

It will be extended to Dublin over the next couple of years. The west, as usual, is asleep.

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/229739/73-in-favour-of-barrow-tow-path-in-www-kilkennypeople-ie-online-poll.html

An unfortunate example.

http://savethebarrowline.com/

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/travel/2016/0108/758687-controversy-comes-to-a-tranquil-and-beautiful-walkway/

end of the road

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

An unfortunate example.

http://savethebarrowline.com/

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/travel/2016/0108/758687-controversy-comes-to-a-tranquil-and-beautiful-walkway/

indeed. hopefully the campaigners wishing to retain the path as it is win their fight.

Quackster

end of the road wrote: »

indeed. hopefully the campaigners wishing to retain the path as it is win their fight.

It saddens me to see these campaigners falling back on the usual lazy anti-cyclist nonsense. On my trip on the Waterford Greenway at the weekend, I witnessed pedestrians and cyclists of all ages and abilities enjoying the amenity in a courteous and responsible manner.

There are legitimate environmental arguments though and the simple 'if it ain't broke, why change it' (not every off-road path needs to be shared use). I would much prefer to see new greenways laid along routes that aren't currently open to the public (eg disused rail lines) rather than creating unnecessary conflict with proposals such as this.

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

An unfortunate example.

http://savethebarrowline.com/

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/travel/2016/0108/758687-controversy-comes-to-a-tranquil-and-beautiful-walkway/

Yes, the anti greenway campaigners might be small in number, but they are vocal.
Thankfully, in the case of the Barrow, their rants look like they won't be heard.
Hopefully common sense will prevail in the west too, before everywhere else has hoovered up the funding.

Muckyboots

end of the road wrote: »

indeed. hopefully the campaigners wishing to retain the path as it is win their fight.

And I presume you also support the campaigners with this too? -
"If the authorities want to provide a hard surface cycle track, why not use our own old railway. The Palace East Line is still there though in a piece of cultural vandalism Carlow VEC allowed Borris Community School to make a break in the embankment in Borris. But have now built on it-but there are ways around that."

http://savethebarrowline.com/meeting/default.html

westtip

I just wondered what the original state of the Barrow towpath was, I am guessing it was a cinder hard path at the time it was actually used as a towpath and has only become a grassy path since the tow path in the true sense of the words, went out of existence. Not a lot to do with the closed western rail corridor though and it seems entrenched views are leading to stalemate on this one.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

indeed. hopefully the campaigners wishing to retain the path as it is win their fight.

The towpath has become overgrown from lack of use and damage by flooding over the years. Waterways Ireland proposes to resurface a strip.of it to allow cyclists, wheelchair users, walkers and families to access the old towpath safely and in comfort.
The small number who oppose this worthy initiative are being whipped up.by an even smaller number with vested interests [snipped]

end of the road

Quackster wrote: »

It saddens me to see these campaigners falling back on the usual lazy anti-cyclist nonsense. On my trip on the Waterford Greenway at the weekend, I witnessed pedestrians and cyclists of all ages and abilities enjoying the amenity in a courteous and responsible manner.

There are legitimate environmental arguments though and the simple 'if it ain't broke, why change it' (not every off-road path needs to be shared use). I would much prefer to see new greenways laid along routes that aren't currently open to the public (eg disused rail lines) rather than creating unnecessary conflict with proposals such as this.

i didn't see any "lazy anti-cyclist nonsense" in the links myself. realistically we don't need to be laying greenways all over the shop, there is not enough demand. a long distance one taking in the places of sceenic beauty around the country is enough really.

eastwest wrote: »

The towpath has become overgrown from lack of use and damage by flooding over the years. Waterways Ireland proposes to resurface a strip.of it to allow cyclists, wheelchair users, walkers and families to access the old towpath safely and in comfort.
The small number who oppose this worthy initiative are being whipped up.by an even smaller number with vested interests [snipped]

cyclists, wheelchairs and families are already using the path with no issue. the only vested interests are those who want to insure this path remains unspoiled

serfboard

end of the road wrote: »

the only vested interests are those who want to insure this path remains unspoiled

From the RTE article that was quoted:

Olivia OLeary wrote:

Step out on the grassy way which is the Barrow towpath and you have stepped into another world. You can walk along the river for miles without hearing a car or a lorry. You can’t even hear the sound of your own footsteps. You’ll hear the birds; the rush of the weirs; the wind in the trees. And little by little you’ll let go of your worries because the river has cast its spell.

There are fewer and fewer places in the world today which are quiet

With her repeated emphasis on quietness, it sounds to me like Olivia doesn't want her quiet walk to be spoiled by masses of the great unwashed and their noisy kids out enjoying the fresh air on their bikes - [snipped].

There's plenty of walks in Ireland which will never be Greenways and to which she can go.

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

From the RTE article that was quoted:

With her repeated emphasis on quietness, it sounds to me like Olivia doesn't want her quiet walk to be spoiled by masses of the great unwashed and their noisy kids out enjoying the fresh air on their bikes - in other words, [snipped].
There's plenty of walks in Ireland which will never be Greenways and to which she can go.

there are even more places for cyclists and people with children to go. she wants to keep an unspoiled walkway as just that, [snipped]. a good number agree with that viewpoint it seems.

Stephen15

eastwest wrote: »

'Scenery" isn't just mountains and lakes, it's open countryside devoid of ribbon development, it's bogs and forests and rural scenes. It's castles and hills and even old railway infrastructure. It's hedgerows and wildlife.
Most of all, however, greenways are about safe places to cycle and walk away from traffic. Go to kilmacthomas this week and see for yourself.

I was there but if you want to attract tourists you need scenery and nice towns and villages for people to stop in which is something the Waterford Greenway has and the Tuam line doesn't for locals fair enough but a Greenway in the barren countryside of the West of Ireland isn't going to attract very many tourists. Waterford always attracted tourists as the scenery is picturesque, the area is nice etc. the Greenway has only boosted this even more Tuam does not attract tourists because it's not.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

there are even more places for cyclists and people with children to go. she wants to keep an unspoiled walkway as just that, nothing to do with being snobby. a good number agree with that viewpoint it seems.

Three out of four people locally disagree with her views.
Nobody wants to spoil this old towpath, they just want it resurfaced and not even over its full width. While it is passable in dry weather in the vicinity of her holiday home, it is in a bad state nearer to Carlow.
The key to this issue, and where it is important in the context of the Western Rail trail, is connectivity. The Barrow footpath is connected to the grand canal way by the grand canal.branch from lowtown to athy, and there are plans to resurface all.of these paths. The grand canal way is fully surfaced from Dublin city centre to the outskirts of the city, so at a stroke you coukd have a cycleway and walkway from Dublin to St Mullins. Waterford council.is already looking to extend the deise greenway back towards new ross, and locals in south carlow are looking at joining the dots to provide a Dublin dungarvan greenway.
This would give Ireland a piece of tourism infrastructure that would bring great benefits to all the places on the route, apart from local amenities. In the same way, the Dublin Galway greenway coukd be tapped into at athenry to feed tourists into dying towns along the closed eyesore that is the wrc. By completing the project of the sligo leitrim and Northern counties greenway to Enniskillen a conduit coukd be provided to bring tourists from NI to the west.
Or we could listen to false promises, like we've been doing for years. And if spoofer politicians ever managed to deliver their fantasy railway, we'd still own the land.
But maybe some of them don't want the land to remain in public ownership, which would explain why they oppose the greenway?