Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

Carawaystick wrote: »

Assuming you are tax resident in Ireland, then the govt will be picking your pocket to pay for this loss after picking your pocket to build the thing even though there is a cheaper, faster, better alternative being provided by Citylink and BÉ on the soon to be even better N/M18 route in Parallel; which incidentally doesn't close for more than a month at a time after a bit of rain falls in this arid country we live in.

The country is broke and you advocate starting wasting money in new and imaginative ways. 16000 passengers in a month is just over 500 a day or about 53 per train ( assuming 5 trains each way per day) which is about how many seats there are on a normal coach....

And the bus calls into very useful places like --- err shannon airport --- now how far is the WRC from shannon - oh sorry I forgot miles away because it merely follows a 19th century train alignment, and the bus doesn't go 15 miles east of Galway before heading into the city and a bus can go near high employment centres like Ballybrit and I bet one bus uses a lot less energy than one train oh my god are we really saying a bus could be greener than a train. Mon Dieu c'est tres incredible.

Grass between the tracks

The WRC will be defunct in 5 years time. There will be grass growing between the tracks from Ennis to Athenry. This white elephant will be exposed as the waste of money that it is, built to satisfy some chained officals in the wesht and a group of trainspotters from the UK. The sad thing is that by the time this is realised by IE, Rosslare-Limerick Junction and Killroan-Ballybrophy will be under care and maintenance programs.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The WRC is not viable and is doomed.

Transportuser09

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

The WRC will be defunct in 5 years time. There will be grass growing between the tracks from Ennis to Athenry. This white elephant will be exposed as the waste of money that it is, built to satisfy some chained officals in the wesht and a group of trainspotters from the UK. The sad thing is that by the time this is realised by IE, Rosslare-Limerick Junction and Killroan-Ballybrophy will be under care and maintenance programs.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The WRC is not viable and is doomed.

I very much doubt it will be defunct. It needs time to grow and prosper.I don't know what you mean about it being built to satisfy trainspotters from the UK, doesn't make sense at all. It has the potential to be at least as viable as the other lines you mention. I wouldn't get too flamed up about this line in the west, Grass between the tracks.

steamengine

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I very much doubt it will be defunct. It needs time to grow and prosper.I don't know what you mean about it being built to satisfy trainspotters from the UK, doesn't make sense at all. It has the potential to be at least as viable as the other lines you mention. I wouldn't get too flamed up about this line in the west, Grass between the tracks.

+1..........wouldn't get too enflamed either ! One could almost guess that the passenger numbers had gone up as there was a deafening silence for the last two weeks or so. Its no different than the rest of the subsidised network.

corktina

repeating the figures...53 passengers per train at a time when people were traveliing for the novelty value....a bus load that has cost us and our children and grandchildren MILLIONS.....

deduct the free passes and the rubber-neckers.Deduct the trainspotters who will come once to tick off a new bit of track (strange creatures, I am one I guess although I dont spot anything). Deduct those who would have travelled Bus Eireann and then see who the core beneficiaries of all these millions are. They wont take much counting

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I very much doubt it will be defunct. It needs time to grow and prosper.I don't know what you mean about it being built to satisfy trainspotters from the UK, doesn't make sense at all. It has the potential to be at least as viable as the other lines you mention. I wouldn't get too flamed up about this line in the west, Grass between the tracks.

I have heard this time to develop and grow and prosper argument before pray tell me how will it grow and prosper?

Long term employment prospects in the mid west are (unfortunately) not good

In a few months time this growing and prospering service will be competing with a road that will get passengers on a bus from both Ennis and Limerick to Galway far cheaper and more quickly, and forget about the demand for through traffic on the Claremorris - Athenry - Ennis - Limerick route. The "Corridor" doesn't actually exist, it is essentially two branch lines to Galway.

There will be a census next year - I don't want to second guess it but I forecast the key working age population (ie 18 - 50's) in the catchment area of the line may have declined in numbers in the past five years due to renewed emigration. For the line to grow and prosper it needs a population to grow and prosper with it. It needs the people in their mid 20s and 30s to be secure in jobs enough to buy houses in a housing market they can trust and borrow money from banks they can trust, it needs these people to have families and build society for the future, the presence of a slow rail line from Ennis to Galway will not be economic panacea for the area and nor will the line running south from Claremorris, so please have a bit of kop on.

Any new large scale employment (please lets all head to Knock and pray hard) in the area of the west and mid west is not likely to occur in big enough numbers at points serviced by this line, Big employers if they do come will locate near the new road, or possibly near international airport (Shannon -have you heard of it) because guess what that is the pattern of new greenfield high tech employment centres, supply chain companies etc globally (oh of course the difference is we're irish)

"Grow and Prosper" sounds like a piece of BS from a political manifesto - as a statement in relation to this project it bears up to no socio-economic analysis, I do recall builders building housing estates in the middle of nowhere saying the likes of "build them and they will come"

I now have an eerie sense of deja vu when I hear Grow and prosper in relation to this project.

Transportuser09

corktina wrote: »

repeating the figures...53 passengers per train at a time when people were traveliing for the novelty value....a bus load that has cost us and our children and grandchildren MILLIONS.....

deduct the free passes and the rubber-neckers.Deduct the trainspotters who will come once to tick off a new bit of track (strange creatures, I am one I guess although I dont spot anything). Deduct those who would have travelled Bus Eireann and then see who the core beneficiaries of all these millions are. They wont take much counting

Free pass holders are still passengers nonetheless. Consider this ; a private bus operator gets covered by the state for free passes. Lets say a particular service run by that company is mainly used by OAPs. Does that make that service suddenly unprofitable for the company? No, of course not. And I wouldn't say trainspotters make up a great deal of the passengers so far on this route.

corktina

IE has already stated that the line will be a huge loss maker, its just a question of how big is the Albatross the Government has hung round our neck is....

rainbowdash

corktina wrote: »

IE has already stated that the line will be a huge loss maker, its just a question of how big is the Albatross the Government has hung round our neck is....

But how much of the huge lossmaking will be down to the overpaid staff with ridiculously good conditions (I would imagine its one of the bloatisest sections of the public sector)

Maybe if Irish Rail hadn't abandoned railfreight then such freight could help viability.

How will the huge lossmaking compare to the increased losses on all intercity routes once the motorway network is complete (most of it later this year) and the train is slower than the bottleneck free car or bus journey?

Maybe if Irish Rail charged a bit less and paid themselves a bit less more people would use the services.

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Free pass holders are still passengers nonetheless. .

Accepted, but they have to be subvented by the state, and you don't go building this kind of infrastucture with this in mind!

Oh there are loads of pensioners in Gort who would like to pop up to Galway for their lunch once a week - sure why don't we go building a railway for them? It's crazy to build infrastructure on these grounds.

YES you can build infrastucture to fulfill social needs but in a case like a railway there has to be an economic driver as well.....Let me say it again. The West of Ireland is massively car dependent, the N17/18/15 is the key piece of infrastucture needed for north south supply chain logistics and people movement and to save money in the health service as a safe seamless road will mean less critical crashes with all the incumbent costs and human misery they bring. Give us a safe seamless road from Letterkenny to Cork which will give us less people in the A&E and cemetry, supply chain logistic costs reduced, bus timetables beating train time tables significantly, bus fares doing the same to train fares etc - predictable and faster journey times for folks going to Knock and Shannon airports etc etc.....

This railway is very nice to have - but we simply cannot afford it and it does very little in real terms for the local economy... Its there yes, good luck to it, lets hope it is a success lets hope it doesn't lose too much money; but is it needed - not really.

corktina

rainbowdash wrote: »

But how much of the huge lossmaking will be down to the overpaid staff with ridiculously good conditions (I would imagine its one of the bloatisest sections of the public sector)

Maybe if Irish Rail hadn't abandoned railfreight then such freight could help viability.

How will the huge lossmaking compare to the increased losses on all intercity routes once the motorway network is complete (most of it later this year) and the train is slower than the bottleneck free car or bus journey?

Maybe if Irish Rail charged a bit less and paid themselves a bit less more people would use the services.

In fact I believe that the only staff being used are existing ones so I think you could argue that this line is making more efficent use of them...

Freight? from where to where? there just isnt any potential freight in the West of Ireland of any size...or in the rest of ireland for that matter.

Jim Martin

westtip wrote: »

I have heard this time to develop and grow and prosper argument before pray tell me how will it grow and prosper?

Long term employment prospects in the mid west are (unfortunately) not good

In a few months time this growing and prospering service will be competing with a road that will get passengers on a bus from both Ennis and Limerick to Galway far cheaper and more quickly, and forget about the demand for through traffic on the Claremorris - Athenry - Ennis - Limerick route. The "Corridor" doesn't actually exist, it is essentially two branch lines to Galway.

There will be a census next year - I don't want to second guess it but I forecast the key working age population (ie 18 - 50's) in the catchment area of the line may have declined in numbers in the past five years due to renewed emigration. For the line to grow and prosper it needs a population to grow and prosper with it. It needs the people in their mid 20s and 30s to be secure in jobs enough to buy houses in a housing market they can trust and borrow money from banks they can trust, it needs these people to have families and build society for the future, the presence of a slow rail line from Ennis to Galway will not be economic panacea for the area and nor will the line running south from Claremorris, so please have a bit of kop on.

Any new large scale employment (please lets all head to Knock and pray hard) in the area of the west and mid west is not likely to occur in big enough numbers at points serviced by this line, Big employers if they do come will locate near the new road, or possibly near international airport (Shannon -have you heard of it) because guess what that is the pattern of new greenfield high tech employment centres, supply chain companies etc globally (oh of course the difference is we're irish)

"Grow and Prosper" sounds like a piece of BS from a political manifesto - as a statement in relation to this project it bears up to no socio-economic analysis, I do recall builders building housing estates in the middle of nowhere saying the likes of "build them and they will come"

I now have an eerie sense of deja vu when I hear Grow and prosper in relation to this project.

"For a population to grow and prosper" - it needs good communication links. At least this is a start. Lets be thankful & tender & feed it!

Cookie_Monster

Jim Martin wrote: »

"For a population to grow and prosper" - it needs good communication links. At least this is a start. Lets be thankful & tender & feed it!

thats what phones are for :pac::pac::pac:

Judgement Day

Victor wrote: »

T
Will cost a fortune. How about locals contribute (or indeed pay in full) for the cost of this, as the residents of Carrigtwohill, Midleton, Adamstown, Parkwest, Blanchardstown, Dunboyne, Clongriffin have paid?

Am I missing something here? How did the locals in Midleton and Carrigtwohill pay directly for the reopening of the line to Midleton - any more than any other taxpayer?

westtip

Jim Martin wrote: »

"For a population to grow and prosper" - it needs good communication links. At least this is a start. Lets be thankful & tender & feed it!

Clearly Jim you have the needs of the west at heart, and I don't want to shoot down your optimism but please stop and think about it:

Its not really a start as you say - it was a start back in the 1880s and 1890s when the line was built when no doubt it was a great help to the economy of the area, by replacing the horse and cart - the world has moved on, the economic driver in terms of infrastuctre will be the upgrading to DC of the N17/18. This railway will not make one iota of difference to the growing and prospering of the area, it's not the economic miracle the area is looking for - we need good tourism infrastucture (which is why I argue for Greenways) we need good communications infrastucture (high level technology that could by the way be put alongside the greenways) and we need good supply chain infrastructure (good roads in the 21st century), which in turn will enable good public transport in buses - The WRC is a smokescreen that clouds these more critical issues and is not as WOT so often argue such great value for money - it doesn't matter how much or how little you pay for a pig in a poke - its still a pig in a poke. The west has so many greater priorities why can't the energy for campaigning be redirected to the greater priorities for the greater good of a greater number of people.

Chris_5339762

And the simple, simple truth is that noone will use a 2 to 2 1/2 hour train when you can get from Doughiska to Limerick city in about an hour on the road.

Transportuser09

Jim Martin wrote: »

"For a population to grow and prosper" - it needs good communication links. At least this is a start. Lets be thankful & tender & feed it!

Exactly, +1.

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Exactly, +1.

oh you are so right to add +1 we really need good communication infrastructure in the west but not 19th century infrastructure.

westtip

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

And the simple, simple truth is that noone will use a 2 to 2 1/2 hour train when you can get from Doughiska to Limerick city in about an hour on the road.

As Transportuser09 might say Exactly +1 (BTW where is Doughiska!)

Chris_5339762

Doughiska = Galway clinic basically. The start of the M6. Once the M17/18 scheme is done you'll get to Limerick from Galway that way.

rainbowdash

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

And the simple, simple truth is that noone will use a 2 to 2 1/2 hour train when you can get from Doughiska to Limerick city in about an hour on the road.

Not quite as simple as that, what about all the OAP's and their travel passes!

WOT should arrange daily card games and activities for them on the trains to make the loadings look good.

Transportuser09

westtip wrote: »

oh you are so right to add +1 we really need good communication infrastructure in the west but not 19th century infrastructure.

I never realised they had ticket vending machines, computerised signalling, cwr, concrete sleepers and diesel railcars in the 19th century. The rail route is from the 19th century granted, but so are virtually all the other Irish rail lines. In an ideal world you could build a brand new alignment but imagine the costs...

invinciblePRSTV

Judgement Day wrote: »

Am I missing something here? How did the locals in Midleton and Carrigtwohill pay directly for the reopening of the line to Midleton - any more than any other taxpayer?

Developer levies?

Judgement Day

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Developer levies?

They have been people living in both towns for many years - how did they pay development levies???

Cookie_Monster

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Developer levies?

that would be the developers not the locals who paid that.

They have to be paid everywhere...

Zoney

In one respect the timing of the reopened service is particularly good - it looks like with the recently planned joint programmes between University of Limerick and NUI Galway, there will be quite a number of University staff/visitors making use of the service (indeed some are already). It certainly makes transport less of a hassle for this collaboration.

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I never realised they had ticket vending machines, computerised signalling, cwr, concrete sleepers and diesel railcars in the 19th century. The rail route is from the 19th century granted, but so are virtually all the other Irish rail lines. In an ideal world you could build a brand new alignment but imagine the costs...

Speed of trains about the same as the 19th century. you can just hear Joe public saying now - Oh I will go on the train cos they have automatic vending machines that take 20 euro off me and it will onlyl take 2 hours to get to Galway - oh sod it I will go on the nice modern air conditioned bus get there in just over an hour and give the driver a fiver......

corktina

westtip wrote: »

Speed of trains about the same as the 19th century. you can just hear Joe public saying now - Oh I will go on the train cos they have automatic vending machines that take 20 euro off me and it will onlyl take 2 hours to get to Galway - oh sod it I will go on the nice modern air conditioned bus get there in just over an hour and give the driver a fiver......

no-brainer isnt it!

I could be wrong but OAP passes arent accepted by citylink...maybe the train could cost ordinary passengers a fiver if IE didnt have to accept them...looks to me as if they are subsiding the OAPS... as I say i could be wrong....

Carawaystick

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I never realised they had ticket vending machines, computerised signalling, cwr, concrete sleepers and diesel railcars in the 19th century. The rail route is from the 19th century granted, but so are virtually all the other Irish rail lines. In an ideal world you could build a brand new alignment but imagine the costs...

THis is like resurfacing the 19th century macadam road surface with asphalt and placing cateyes, computerised signalling and data collection, and diesel and otto cycle vehicles replacing steam and animal powered vehicles.

instead, building a new road on a new route is the preferred method for quality public transport.

Sponge Bob

Carawaystick wrote: »

instead, building a new road on a new route is the preferred method for quality public transport.

A preferred route not THE preferred route. It depends on population. eg 20 buses would shift 10% of all the students in NUIG to Limerick and shift the same number up to Galway on the hind leg. Furthermore it would be door to door.