Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

eastwest

Consonata wrote: »

So a Navan commuter line is all well and good but a Sligo Galway line is completely out of the question

The point is that if there is ever any investment in rail lines in ireland, navan would make more sense than Claremorris or Tuam.

eastwest

eastwest wrote: »

....and nobody had cars.

True, but railways were built primarily for freight, not passengers, they adapted over time to carry more passengers as initially no one commuted anywhere to work.

Muckyboots

Consonata wrote: »

So a Navan commuter line is all well and good but a Sligo Galway line is completely out of the question

Even Sean Canney knows that a Sligo- Galway line is out of the question and its not on the table. It's the point that he is proposing to waste tens of millions on an Athenry -Claremorris connection where there is documented evidence of "no demand".

savagethegoat

Consonata wrote: »

So a Navan commuter line is all well and good but a Sligo Galway line is completely out of the question

well I think you answer that yourself with the word "commuter". Noone will commute from Sligo to Galway but hundreds will from Navan to Dublin. Go figure. Value for money

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

Even Sean Canney knows that a Sligo- Galway line is out of the question and its not on the table. It's the point that he is proposing to waste tens of millions on an Athenry -Claremorris connection where there is documented evidence of "no demand".

He also knows that anything north of Athenry is out of the question, but he doesn't care. All he has to do is pander to the minority who still believe the nonsense about trains on this route. He can go back to them and say that he did his best, and would have got a train only for the Dublin four types, but that if he's reelected he'll try harder.
It's classic 'drain the shannon' stuff. Promise the undeliverable, and keep saying 'we're nearly there, sure haven't we a report already'.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

....and nobody had cars.

July 30th 1863. A significant day for the demise of the Western Rail Corridor.

Anyone else know the significance of this date....ah shucks I will tell you.

The birth date of Henry Ford.

marno21

westtip wrote: »

Do you know anything about modern supply chain logistics. Tell me how will all the food, milk, hammers and nails, newspapers, etc make their way to these towns. On a train?

I mean long distance HGV traffic along the N17 corridor would no longer have to go through towns or on narrow roads like the unupgraded stretches of the N17. Obviously the deliveries or HGVs originating in future bypassed towns along the N17 would have to use the town, but removing the long distance HGV traffic that would otherwise have no business in the town is a major reason to upgrade the N17 as opposed to the rail line.

thomond2006

Rookie question...If Cork to Heuston can be done in 2h15 why is Limerick to Galway only slightly shorter? Are there speed restrictions on the line?

marno21

thomond2006 wrote: »

Rookie question...If Cork to Heuston can be done in 2h15 why is Limerick to Galway almost the same? Are there speed restrictions on the line?

Yes, the line from Ennis to Athenry is restricted. You also have the issue of the train having to go to Athenry and reverse before going to Galway adding to the delay.

Consonata

savagethegoat wrote: »

well I think you answer that yourself with the word "commuter". Noone will commute from Sligo to Galway but hundreds will from Navan to Dublin. Go figure. Value for money

"Nobody". Route 64 is one of the most used bus lines going from Derry to Galway, and after Sligo it is always packed. Yes, if you want to turn Navan into yet another commuter village to Dublin, that makes sense. But if you aren't going to develop the peripheral regions, the country is going to slide further and further towards being completely Dublin centric. Yes a Claremorris-Athenry line makes 0 sense if it doesn't connect to Sligo. But a Train between two fairly substantial population centres Like Sligo and Galway is worthwhile doing instead of just developing everything with an "All roads lead to Dublin" attitude.

westtip

marno21 wrote: »

Yes, the line from Ennis to Athenry is restricted. You also have the issue of the train having to go to Athenry and reverse before going to Galway adding to the delay.

And the alignment north of Athenry is full of twists and turns; but here is an issue, this line is referred to as the Western Rail Corridor. yet to incorporate Galway into the Corridor all trains have to spur off at the T junction at Athenry to go into and out of Galway, a single track line, the Dublin Galway route (which WOT call part of the WRC). Are the WOT campaigners suggesting there will be two commuter trains in the morning from the North and the south going up and down the line to Galway, or will there will be a through train on the line from Tuam to Limerick with all change at Athenry and the same for trains from Limerick to Tuam. In fact is Athenry to become the new Clapham junction of the West, it's not just clamouring to build this line its how much it will cost to logistically run....Any ideas on that one folks, perhaps this issue should be covered in Mr. Canneys economic analysis!

westtip

Consonata wrote: »

"Nobody". Route 64 is one of the most used bus lines going from Derry to Galway, and after Sligo it is always packed. Yes, if you want to turn Navan into yet another commuter village to Dublin, that makes sense. But if you aren't going to develop the peripheral regions, the country is going to slide further and further towards being completely Dublin centric. Yes a Claremorris-Athenry line makes 0 sense if it doesn't connect to Sligo. But a Train between two fairly substantial population centres Like Sligo and Galway is worthwhile doing instead of just developing everything with an "All roads lead to Dublin" attitude.

You really are a novice on this thread, trawl the arguments, they have long since been debated

savagethegoat

Consonata wrote: »

"Nobody". Route 64 is one of the most used bus lines going from Derry to Galway, and after Sligo it is always packed. Yes, if you want to turn Navan into yet another commuter village to Dublin, that makes sense. But if you aren't going to develop the peripheral regions, the country is going to slide further and further towards being completely Dublin centric. Yes a Claremorris-Athenry line makes 0 sense if it doesn't connect to Sligo. But a Train between two fairly substantial population centres Like Sligo and Galway is worthwhile doing instead of just developing everything with an "All roads lead to Dublin" attitude.

Do you think there are no packed buses going from Navan to Dublin at present?

OK, a bit of a railway history lesson for you, the line from Collooney to Athenry was originally built on the cheap and has been shut for decades. It isn't a simple matter to rebuild it, the entire formation would need to be excavated and re-engineered in it's entirety with curves and gradients eased too. It may look like a railway line from the bus, but believe me , it will cost a large fortune to rebuild. The section south of Athenry was of a much better original build quality and much shorter but still cost €105 million to rebuild, and at that it was rebuilt including speed restrictions and a reversal.

Ask yourself can young people like you afford to bear the Capital cost repayments of , what?, a quarter of a billion or more through your taxes for the rest of your careers? Ask yourself how much cheaper a coach on the parallel N17 would be and how much quicker if that road were brought up to modern standards. Ask yourself what other benefits other than your coach an improved N17 would bring.

Most of all, read the thread, this is all old ground

loyatemu

"The findings of the TG4 poll clearly justify the decision to proceed with the Ennis-Athenry section of the WRC and should encourage the Government to include Phase 2 from Athenry to Claremorris immediately.
"Working from the statistics in the poll it may be seen that potentially greater numbers of people would be using that one section of the WRC annually than currently use the Belfast-Dublin route, with numbers being at least as great as those currently using the Limerick-Dublin, Westport-Dublin and Sligo-Dublin routes," he added.
Example:
23% of respondents say they will use the train at least once a month.
As a % of total pop of Co. Galway over 18 yrs (150,000 approx):
= 34,500 people x 12 months
= 414,000 x 2 (return trips count as 2)
= 828,000 = DEMAND
Note: WEST ON TRACK projected a demand of 750,000

Wow. So they overestimated projected usage by a factor of what? 10? I assume they'll factor this into any future predictions.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

The D4 media attack on the Canney- WRC Plan cranked up a notch with Sean O'Rourke on Morning Ireland. "WRC at the expense of Navan"?
And he is a Galway man.

the thing is that isn't correct, as navan won't be built. it should be and if i had my way it would have been instead of ennis athenry but sadly we can forget it now

Consonata wrote: »

So a Navan commuter line is all well and good but a Sligo Galway line is completely out of the question

if there was a choice then absolutely navan should win. realistically it should never have lost it's service in the first place or it should have been re-instated years ago, but if there is any chance of a reopening anywhere this is the line that should be done

savagethegoat wrote: »

Ask yourself how much cheaper a coach on the parallel N17 would be and how much quicker if that road were brought up to modern standards. Ask yourself what other benefits other than your coach an improved N17 would bring.

actually, the coach would be a lot more expensive in terms of it's infrastructure. it does however have the benefit of sharing space with other vehicles. coaches only really benefit a small market, so unless there are huge loads of freight traveling the N17 it should be left as is or given an improved surface. doubling it just so coaches can travel a bit faster isn't the best use of funds considering there are other more worthy road projects needing to be done.

marno21

Would there be demand for a high speed, direct train to Galway with easy access to different parts of Galway city by other forms of public transport? Yes

In reality, is there demand for a speed restricted, indirect train to Galway city centre, with no access to many parts of Galway including the biggest residential areas and employment centres? Unsurprisingly, no.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

the thing is that isn't correct, as navan won't be built. it should be and if i had my way it would have been instead of ennis athenry but sadly we can forget it now



if there was a choice then absolutely navan should win. realistically it should never have lost it's service in the first place or it should have been re-instated years ago, but if there is any chance of a reopening anywhere this is the line that should be done



actually, the coach would be a lot more expensive in terms of it's infrastructure. it does however have the benefit of sharing space with other vehicles. coaches only really benefit a small market, so unless there are huge loads of freight traveling the N17 it should be left as is or given an improved surface. doubling it just so coaches can travel a bit faster isn't the best use of funds considering there are other more worthy road projects needing to be done.

Average speeds on the N17 would be around 55km/h. While I don't travel the N17 myself, I do travel similar roads such as the N20, N21, N22 and N24 with similar medium to high traffic volumes, poor stretches, few overtaking opportunities and several bottlenecks.

All these roads must be upgraded in the interest of safety, journey times and capacity. Average speeds of 55km/h on inter-regional routes is obscene and a major factor in stifling the west and reducing potential investment.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

Average speeds on the N17 would be around 55km/h. While I don't travel the N17 myself, I do travel similar roads such as the N20, N21, N22 and N24 with similar medium to high traffic volumes, poor stretches, few overtaking opportunities and several bottlenecks.

All these roads must be upgraded in the interest of safety, journey times and capacity. Average speeds of 55km/h on inter-regional routes is obscene and a major factor in stifling the west and reducing potential investment.

And that's what Canney should be lobbying for, to speed up investment in upgrading the N17. That is what is needed in terms of transport infrastructure in places like Claremorris -- a dual carriageway of at keast a 2+1.
As for the WRC, people tend to forget that these lines essentially closed because nobody was using them. The idea that reopening them would change that was well and truly scotched by the reality versus predictions on Ennis-Athenry.

Del.Monte

eastwest wrote: »

And that's what Canney should be lobbying for, to speed up investment in upgrading the N17. That is what is needed in terms of transport infrastructure in places like Claremorris -- a dual carriageway of at keast a 2+1.
As for the WRC, people tend to forget that these lines essentially closed because nobody was using them. The idea that reopening them would change that was well and truly scotched by the reality versus predictions on Ennis-Athenry.

You've obviously haven't researched this very thoroughly, as if you had you would know better than to make such a bald statement. Like many other non-radial routes CIE never made any effort to put on a proper passenger timetable, but despite this the route remained busy with freight - beet, coal and oil trains between Foynes and Ballina - as well as Knock pilgrimage trains, GAA specials etc. That the line was 'mothballed' - CIE style - and got into its present state stands as a monument to stupidity - like many of the posts on this thread.

That's my tuppence worth and I will now return to the sidelines.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

You've obviously haven't researched this very thoroughly, as if you had you would know better than to make such a bald statement. Like many other non-radial routes CIE never made any effort to put on a proper passenger timetable, but despite this the route remained busy with freight - beet, coal and oil trains between Foynes and Ballina - as well as Knock pilgrimage trains, GAA specials etc. That the line was 'mothballed' - CIE style - and got into its present state stands as a monument to stupidity - like many of the posts on this thread.

That's my tuppence worth and I will now return to the sidelines.

You are being far too romantic about it. A decent argument over 30 years ago ,maybe, and at least 25 years late. I've researched it very well. I'm currently looking at a copy of the 1981 report on it, which also includes the 1992 report on it. Both copies are thinner than WOTs noughties report! Timetables? Honestly, that was not the reason it closed. Freight, beet, coal and oil? Things change. Knock Pilgrams? GAA specials? Once again and with respect, you are citing a different Ireland from a time long gone. CIE have made many mistakes and are a thorn in the side of public transport, both in provision and perception, but the WRC was never a runner in 20th or 21st century Ireland.

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

Like many other non-radial routes CIE never made any effort to put on a proper passenger timetable, but despite this the route remained busy with freight - beet, coal and oil trains between Foynes and Ballina - as well as Knock pilgrimage trains, GAA specials etc. That the line was 'mothballed' - CIE style - and got into its present state stands as a monument to stupidity - like many of the posts on this thread. That's my tuppence worth and I will now return to the sidelines.

Nothing like a bit of nostalgia. Great post.

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

You've obviously haven't researched this very thoroughly, as if you had you would know better than to make such a bald statement. Like many other non-radial routes CIE never made any effort to put on a proper passenger timetable, but despite this the route remained busy with freight - beet, coal and oil trains between Foynes and Ballina - as well as Knock pilgrimage trains, GAA specials etc. That the line was 'mothballed' - CIE style - and got into its present state stands as a monument to stupidity - like many of the posts on this thread.
That's my tuppence worth and I will now return to the sidelines.

Freight? Lord help us!
Have you ever been in Mayo, or Galway?
There used to be 'freight' on this line, in different times. Supplies sent to local stations for collection by local shops and small local wholesalers.
The distribution sector is somewhat different nowadays!
Of course there was Asahi, and now there is Coca Cola. Both 'sustainable' industries that use or used a fraction of available capacity.

eastwest

I see that Sean Canney has been given the 'drain the shannon' job.
Nice to see that Enda Kenny has a sense of humour.
I suppose his first job will be to drain the western rail corridor, or maybe he can send his wife down to do it, seeing as she has the required skillset for the job as his assistant.

BoatMad

eastwest wrote: »

And that's what Canney should be lobbying for, to speed up investment in upgrading the N17. That is what is needed in terms of transport infrastructure in places like Claremorris -- a dual carriageway of at keast a 2+1.
As for the WRC, people tend to forget that these lines essentially closed because nobody was using them. The idea that reopening them would change that was well and truly scotched by the reality versus predictions on Ennis-Athenry.

The demise of railways had many reasons. It's easy to forget that railways in Ireland , especially the west were not built to carry people , but primarily agricultural freight

In the past 100000 passenger journeys on these lines would never have been considered. Places today that have 8-10 trains a day of passangers once had 2 or 4 trains

Hence the " demise" of railways in ireland was mainly the demise of freight not people

Muckyboots

BoatMad wrote: »

The demise of railways had many reasons. It's easy to forget that railways in Ireland , especially the west were not built to carry people , but primarily agricultural freight

In the past 100000 passenger journeys on these lines would never have been considered. Places today that have 8-10 trains a day of passangers once had 2 or 4 trains

Hence the " demise" of railways in ireland was mainly the demise of freight not people

When the rest of the real world are talking about reducing overall consumption and materialism to save ourselves and the planet, we get "God controls the weather" gombeens as politicians and the clergy dictating transport policy. It's time to move on.
http://galwaybayfm.ie/well-known-clergyman-calls-campaign-bring-galway-airport-back-service/

Del.Monte

Not to mention people who think the future is on based on tarmacing the entire country.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not to mention people who think the future is on based on tarmacing the entire country.

And then a roof over it, so it will be perfect.:D

Listen. I miss a whole lot of stuff on Irish Railways and from a passenger point of view. I hate the sterile trains that run everywhere from IC to Commuter. I hate how IE have employed successive "managers" that have streamlined the customer experience in the pursuit of cost savings and without really looking at the rancid condition of its own head office. No decent catering. ****ty first class. I could go on, but you know it already.

But the WRC is absolutely not a way forward in any shape or fashion. And forget Navan aswell. Crazy money after the 30 plus years of destruction aided and abetted by the state. Whatever happened to Mr. Finn?:D

Del.Monte

Grandeeod wrote: »

And then a roof over it, so it will be perfect.:D

Listen. I miss a whole lot of stuff on Irish Railways and from a passenger point of view. I hate the sterile trains that run everywhere from IC to Commuter. I hate how IE have employed successive "managers" that have streamlined the customer experience in the pursuit of cost savings and without really looking at the rancid condition of its own head office. No decent catering. ****ty first class. I could go on, but you know it already.

But the WRC is absolutely not a way forward in any shape or fashion. And forget Navan aswell. Crazy money after the 30 plus years of destruction aided and abetted by the state. Whatever happened to Mr. Finn?:D

Whatever happened to Paul G.T.Conlon - the man who wanted to turn Inchicore Works into a centre of engineering excellence and take on outside contract work. As far as I know they overhauled a pair of church gates before dropping the idea. I was at school with Shane Ross's brother but I doubt that will help me gain his ear.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

Whatever happened to Paul G.T.Conlon - the man who wanted to turn Inchicore Works into a centre of engineering excellence and take on outside contract work.

As chairman of CIE he blew smoke up his own ass, just like John Lynch. The outrageous salaries clouded their judgement, when it came to standing up to their employers....the state.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

Whatever happened to Paul G.T.Conlon - the man who wanted to turn Inchicore Works into a centre of engineering excellence and take on outside contract work.

And the man who had loco 201 delivered by air, so it would arrive before Conlon retired.

Having said that, I did admire his desire for Irish Rail to think outside the box.