Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Muckyboots

what_traffic wrote: »

BARRY KENNY has a letter re rail numbers in todays IT. WRC is mentioned. http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/rail-passenger-numbers-1.2858116

Serfboard said on an earlier post- "How things get done in government - if you think a plan or policy will be welcomed, you announce it. If you think it won't, you leak it, either directly or indirectly (as seems to be in this case). Bake it in the oven of public opinion for two weeks and guage the reaction. If a massive or major reaction, deny and rescind the plan. If little to no reaction, carry it out."
Colm McCarthy. Barry Kenny. Govieleaks. Not looking good for the "throwing good money after bad" advocates.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

My point is that with just an average of 28 passengers per journey, a minibus would provide a quicker and cheaper service.

to who, because they're would be nobody on board that minny bus unlike the train. nobody is going to waste their time using an unreliable minny bus when they can just take the car.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Shut the line down.

not going to happen. we need to get used to the fact this line isn't going anywhere whether we like it or not. other more used lines will go before it if it comes to it. that has always been the way and always will be the way, because something from the 1930s or something.

Vic_08

end of the road wrote: »

to who, because they're would be nobody on board that minny bus unlike the train. nobody is going to waste their time using an unreliable minny bus when they can just take the car.

The 30+ commercially operated coach services between Limerick and Galway daily versus 5 WRC tains says otherwise. But this has all been said a hundred times before so no doubt you will pay no heed to the 101th time.

end of the road

Vic_08 wrote: »

The 30+ commercially operated coach services between Limerick and Galway daily versus 5 WRC tains says otherwise. But this has all been said a hundred times before so no doubt you will pay no heed to the 101th time.

because it's not relevant to those using the train service. bus is a completely different market. if you replaced the train tomorrow the rail users would take the car. this has happened a plenty both here and the uk. but no doubt people will ignore that. look it makes no odds to me what happens the line but we need to get over this 1960s ideals of "we have bus so we don't need rail anywhere"

Idbatterim

because it's not relevant to those using the train service. bus is a completely different market. if you replaced the train tomorrow the rail users would take the car. this has happened a plenty both here and the uk. but no doubt people will ignore that. look it makes no odds to me what happens the line but we need to get over this 1960s ideals of "we have bus so we don't need rail anywhere"

I dont think anyone is saying, "we havebus so we dont need rail" I would like to know what amount on that line are using a free travel pass. Because the numbers are a joke even with them and I am assuming they make up a significant enough chunk of the patronage. People dont want to pay for anything, fine, but dont expect a loss making duplicated service, while you swan around with unlimited travel on said loss making services.

Sam Russell

end of the road wrote: »

to who, because they're would be nobody on board that minny bus unlike the train. nobody is going to waste their time using an unreliable minny bus when they can just take the car.



not going to happen. we need to get used to the fact this line isn't going anywhere whether we like it or not. other more used lines will go before it if it comes to it. that has always been the way and always will be the way, because something from the 1930s or something.

Exactly, that line is not a service that can be remotely considered viable and has no future.

An average of 28 passengers (some of whom are on FTP) can be considered anything but a hopeless loss to IR. I would like to know how many of those 28 passengers pay the €10 fare.

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

because it's not relevant to those using the train service. bus is a completely different market. if you replaced the train tomorrow the rail users would take the car.

You could probably replace the train service with a hackney service and still loose less money...

westtip

Sam Russell wrote: »

Using his figures for Ennis to Athenry, suggest total passenger numbers of an average of 279 (I assume that is for both directions so 140 each way) on trains that run 5 services each way.

An average of 28 passengers per service is more like a minibus service to me.

102,000 passengers per year at €10 per journey gives just over €1m. Some (most) might be free social welfare customers.

Well the West on Crack sponsored report actually said about 20% were social welfare/pension customers, so revenue is about £800,000 per annm

Idbatterim

Well the West on Crack sponsored report actually said about 20% were social welfare/pension customers, so revenue is about £800,000 per annm

ha if 20% is whats coming from WOC, Id like to know the real number. Do we have any idea of how much the worst loss making services are costing us?

Sam Russell

westtip wrote: »

Well the West on Crack sponsored report actually said about 20% were social welfare/pension customers, so revenue is about £800,000 per annm

How much does it cost to run the service? How much does IR lose on the line?

Has last years flood subsided yet?

westtip

Idbatterim wrote: »

ha if 20% is whats coming from WOC, Id like to know the real number. Do we have any idea of how much the worst loss making services are costing us?

That is the number they indicated in their much vaunted market research which has now been dismissed by Irish Rail on the letters page of the IT. I am not saying I believe West on Crack! The real figure could be as high as 50%. Remember when it comes to numbers there is a high level intellectual analysis (sic) on the West on Crack website http://www.westontrack.com/news178.htm which shows the demand for the WRC will be ....

WEST ON TRACK projected a demand of 750,000

West on Track website press release October 31 2006 (Halloween any coincidence!)

When it comes to numbers really don't believe a word you hear from West on Crack, their eternal optimism remains just that. Eternal!

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

That is the number they indicated in their much vaunted market research which has now been dismissed by Irish Rail on the letters page of the IT. I am not saying I believe West on Crack! The real figure could be as high as 50%. Remember when it comes to numbers there is a high level intellectual analysis (sic) on the West on Crack website http://www.westontrack.com/news178.htm which shows the demand for the WRC will be ....

West on Track website press release October 31 2006 (Halloween any coincidence!)

When it comes to numbers really don't believe a word you hear from West on Crack, their eternal optimism remains just that. Eternal!

When it comes to numbers also don't believe a word you hear from CIE, as they have proven themselves untrustworthy a plenty over the decades.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

When it comes to numbers also don't believe a word you hear from CIE, as they have proven themselves untrustworthy a plenty over the decades.

I cannot comment for CIE, but West on Crack did actually claim that the demand forecast for the WRC would be 750,000 pa. This is why any claims they make ever on numbers need to be taken with a bucket of salt.

Isambard

"West on Crack" was funny the first time but is very old now and does the opposite of help your campaign.
Just so as you know.

eastwest

Isambard wrote: »

"West on Crack" was funny the first time but is very old now and does the opposite of help your campaign.
Just so as you know.

It does offer a possible explanation for some things, though. I mean, a report that suggested that ennis athenry was carrying more passengers than Dublin Belfast? They had to be on something.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

not going to happen. we need to get used to the fact this line isn't going anywhere whether we like it or not. other more used lines will go before it if it comes to it. that has always been the way and always will be the way, because something from the 1930s or something.

Politically it will be hard to shut it down 'because it's there'. They will try to make it work on some level, but when the motorway opens and the private bus companies start to make hay, it will be very hard to hold that line too.
However there is no chance of it being pushed any further north, and we need to get used to that reality and deal with it. Apart from there being no money, there is no business case. Even WOC seems to have conceded that, and have given up the passenger argument and are now pushing the 'wouldn't it be great to have two freight lines into Mayo, we could put one train on each' philosophy. But can anyone who is just smoking ordinary tobacco see that happening? It's not exactly the Rhur valley, as someone said at one stage.
Much better to accept the things that we cannot change, and make plans accordingly.

Grandeeod

I'll stake my reputation on the line here. If FF get back into Government, the WRC will reopen at least as far as Tuam.

Remember where you heard it first!

eastwest

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'll stake my reputation on the line here. If FF get back into Government, the WRC will reopen at least as far as Tuam.

Remember where you heard it first!

I wouldn't put it past O'Cuiv if they ever let him near the kitty. Maybe he could scale back the children's hospital to pay for it?

westtip

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'll stake my reputation on the line here. If FF get back into Government, the WRC will reopen at least as far as Tuam.

Remember where you heard it first!

If FF get back into Government ....well we all know that will happen, but no this whole WRC has lost its popular momentum (if it ever had any), it had a place in more "boomier" times (remember that lovely word from Bertie), but not anymore, the momentum is now behind the greenway movement and the greenway will happen with the promise if things get boomier the railway will come back, but I am afraid boomier times won't come back. No more cheap money from Germany to create economic madness, no fiscal space for fantasy projects, not even from FF, I can see your thinking Grandeeod but nah it won't happen, unless the FF bed fellows are SF....now there is a thought in which case SF/WOC may yet see their day! and the ops officer in Claremorris will give the command. Indeed stranger things have happened.

Muckyboots

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'll stake my reputation on the line here. If FF get back into Government, the WRC will reopen at least as far as Tuam.

Remember where you heard it first!

I'm afraid that flip flopping, directionless, FF/FG confidence & supply agreements for the foreseeable future will ensure that at all nothing happens to anything, anywhere.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

I'm afraid that flip flopping, directionless, FF/FG confidence & supply agreements for the foreseeable future will ensure that at all nothing happens to anything, anywhere.

And that suits all politicians, including not only those that support the greenway but also the ones that pretend that there is a possibility of a railway being built. Once nothing happens, all sides can claim that they would do something about it if they got re-elected.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

And that suits all politicians, including not only those that support the greenway but also the ones that pretend that there is a possibility of a railway being built. Once nothing happens, all sides can claim that they would do something about it if they got re-elected.

You can begin to see why people get so desperate they end up kicking out career politicians and voting for people like Donald.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

You can begin to see why people get so desperate they end up kicking out career politicians and voting for people like Donald.

I'm surprised that hasn't happened in this case. You'd think that the campaigners for a greenway in Tuam would run a spoiler candidate next time, not to win a seat but to take votes from Sean Canney and get him off the pitch. A thousand votes can make a huge difference in a Dail election, and that could easily be achieved.
Or maybe it is already planned?

Muckyboots

eastwest wrote: »

I'm surprised that hasn't happened in this case. You'd think that the campaigners for a greenway in Tuam would run a spoiler candidate next time, not to win a seat but to take votes from Sean Canney and get him off the pitch. A thousand votes can make a huge difference in a Dail election, and that could easily be achieved.
Or maybe it is already planned?

The unmistakable sound of a seed being sown

westtip

Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign
November 15th 2016 for immediate release

• Memo to cabinet reveals €550 subvention per passenger journey on little used rural railway line

• Minister Ross told greenway group “in the context of the Rail Review which I have recently received from the NTA and Irish Rail .....I cannot look at the Western Rail Corridor in isolation from the rest of the network”

• If Limerick Ballybrophy line is closed how can State justify Western Rail Corridor extension?

• Greenway will create tourism jobs along Atlantic Economic Corridor.

A spokesman for the Western rail Trail Campaign – a group campaigning to preserve the alignment of the closed rail line from Athenry to Collooney by utilising the route for tourism and leisure as a greenway, until such time as a railway may be possible, today said the latest reports that a memo has been bought to cabinet showing the levels of losses been shown on some rural railway lines means the likelihood of any new investment in heavy rail is even more remote and a greenway is now the only realistic option for the closed railway route from Athenry to Sligo, thus protecting the route in public ownership forever.
Following reports in the national press on November 15th that one of the rural lines highlighted in the recent National Transport Association, the Limerick to Ballybrophy line costs €550 per passenger journey to subvent, means there must now be serious concerns at cabinet about any talk or prospect of extending the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry. There will be little appetite to extend one of the other major loss making routes, Ennis/Athenry any further say greenway campaign group, so why not have a greenway now?
Spokesman for the Western Rail Trail campaign Brendan Quinn said, “The latest reports that one of the underperforming railway lines, Limerick Ballybrophy, is likely to be closed, is a stark reality check for any hopes of a railway being re-opened between Athenry to Tuam onwards towards Claremorris at anytime in the near future, said Quinn. The time has now come for a decision.
Minister Ross sent the greenway campaign an email in October, which the group has released. In that email received on October 17th Minister Ross said the following about the NTA report he had on his desk, this report has led to the recent memo to cabinet about potential line closures.

“I will have to examine this commitment in the context of the Rail Review which I have recently received from the NTA and Irish Rail. The review is a strategic look at the role of Irish Rail and the financial resources required to continue to provide services on a sustainable basis. Clearly, I cannot look at the Western Rail Corridor in isolation from the rest of the network. I expect to brief my cabinet colleagues on the Review shortly”
(Shane Ross Minister of Transport email to Brendan Quinn on October 17th 2016)
Greenway campaigners now say with absolutely no chance of new railway lines being opened, the option of placing a greenway on the route until such time as a railway may be possible in the future is the best way of protecting the route in public ownership and generating tourism related jobs along the route as part of the Atlantic economic corridor project.
ENDS: body text 418 words Contacts: Brendan Quinn 087 4198193 sligomayogreenwaycampaignemail brenquinn@eircom.net

Email received from Shane Ross Minister of Transport on October 17th 2016-10-24 Sent to Greenway campaign group Western Rail Trail to Brendan Quinn

Our Ref: SR/16/12359
Dear Brendan
I wish to thank you for your correspondence of the 31st of May relating to the proposed study on the Western Rail Corridor. I apologies for the delay in responding.
The Programme for Partnership Government includes a commitment to provide for an independent costing and review of a proposal to extend the Western Rail Corridor (WRC) by linking Athenry and Claremorris. I’m aware that there is considerable debate as to whether the Western Rail Corridor should be re-opened as a rail link or re-developed as a greenway. I have received a number of representations supporting both proposals.
I will have to examine this commitment in the context of the Rail Review which I have recently received from the NTA and Irish Rail. The review is a strategic look at the role of Irish Rail and the financial resources required to continue to provide services on a sustainable basis. Clearly, I cannot look at the Western Rail Corridor in isolation from the rest of the network. I expect to brief my cabinet colleagues on the Review shortly.
I then intend to ensure that the public and all interested parties get an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the future of rail and I intend that this will be done by publication of the review and commencement of a public consultation process on it.
I look forward to considering all contributions made during this process.



With best wishes,


Shane Ross

westtip

Also reported in Irish Times about €550 per passenger journey cost and has been debated on various radio shows today.

Hey ho lets build another huge loss maker! and some question why why I use the phrase West on Crack!:D It is pure hallucination!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/transport-minister-may-shut-lossmaking-line-that-carries-just-73-passengers-a-day-35216080.html

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

Also reported in Irish Times about €550 per passenger journey cost and has been debated on various radio shows today.

Hey ho lets build another huge loss maker! and some question why why I use the phrase West on Crack!:D It is pure hallucination!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/transport-minister-may-shut-lossmaking-line-that-carries-just-73-passengers-a-day-35216080.html

A load of bollox being trotted out to muddy the water regarding closures. Cheaper to provide taxis....all bollox and no question about CIE being incapable idiots. My big toe knows more about CIE than Shane Ross ever will.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Also reported in Irish Times about €550 per passenger journey cost and has been debated on various radio shows today.

Hey ho lets build another huge loss maker! and some question why why I use the phrase West on Crack!:D It is pure hallucination!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/transport-minister-may-shut-lossmaking-line-that-carries-just-73-passengers-a-day-35216080.html

There's no doubt that anyone who thinks that the WRC will be extended in the next twenty years is seriously deluded. We just can't afford it, not just the capital cost but also the subvention.
I'm amazed that West-on-crack haven't at least some members in their little group with the guts to stand up and say that, and look for achievable investment for the route that will keep it public and create sustainable jobs. is the 'group-think' mentality so strong that it overcomes all logic?

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

A load of bollox being trotted out to muddy the water regarding closures. Cheaper to provide taxis....all bollox and no question about CIE being incapable idiots. My big toe knows more about CIE than Shane Ross ever will.

CIE may well be incapable, and indeed your big toe might do better, but there is a reality issue here. The line just isn't attracting customers, which is why it was closed in the first place. Alan Kelly managed to pull a stroke on behalf of his constituency, but the people clamouring for the reopening didn't support it when it was opened.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

I'm amazed that West-on-crack haven't at least some members in their little group with the guts to stand up and say that, and look for achievable investment for the route that will keep it public and create sustainable jobs. is the 'group-think' mentality so strong that it overcomes all logic?

it's not no . they just have a different opinion to you.