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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)
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CIE may well be incapable, and indeed your big toe might do better, but there is a reality issue here. The line just isn't attracting customers, which is why it was closed in the first place. Alan Kelly managed to pull a stroke on behalf of his constituency, but the people clamouring for the reopening didn't support it when it was opened.
The Ballybrophy/Limerick line was never closed and all Alan Kelly managed to do was get extra services provided. The branch needs to be completely reorganised as a secondary route to Limerick with a direct (Dublin facing) curve at Ballybrophy not like the present arrangement which dates from when the horse was the alternative.0 -
guys! Its all CIE's fault! sure all that we need is a 27 fold rise in passenger numbers, and it will pay for itself :rolleyes:
how many of those are on a travel pass too? Its a disgrace, shut it down!0 -
Idbatterim wrote: »guys! Its all CIE's fault! sure all that we need is a 27 fold rise in passenger numbers, and it will pay for itself :rolleyes:
how many of those are on a travel pass too? Its a disgrace, shut it down!
Is that really the best that you can do? Do you not understand that CIE have been trying to close down certain lines for decades and have deliberately run them into the ground. The management and unions don't give a damn for the users as long as they (the management and staff) are looked after - the golden handshake/lump. I'll raise your roll eyes. :rolleyes::rolleyes:0 -
Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign
November 15th 2016 for immediate release
• Memo to cabinet reveals €550 subvention per passenger journey on little used rural railway line
• Minister Ross told greenway group “in the context of the Rail Review which I have recently received from the NTA and Irish Rail .....I cannot look at the Western Rail Corridor in isolation from the rest of the network”
• If Limerick Ballybrophy line is closed how can State justify Western Rail Corridor extension?
• Greenway will create tourism jobs along Atlantic Economic Corridor.
A spokesman for the Western rail Trail Campaign – a group campaigning to preserve the alignment of the closed rail line from Athenry to Collooney by utilising the route for tourism and leisure as a greenway, until such time as a railway may be possible, today said the latest reports that a memo has been bought to cabinet showing the levels of losses been shown on some rural railway lines means the likelihood of any new investment in heavy rail is even more remote and a greenway is now the only realistic option for the closed railway route from Athenry to Sligo, thus protecting the route in public ownership forever.
Following reports in the national press on November 15th that one of the rural lines highlighted in the recent National Transport Association, the Limerick to Ballybrophy line costs €550 per passenger journey to subvent, means there must now be serious concerns at cabinet about any talk or prospect of extending the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry. There will be little appetite to extend one of the other major loss making routes, Ennis/Athenry any further say greenway campaign group, so why not have a greenway now?
Spokesman for the Western Rail Trail campaign Brendan Quinn said, “The latest reports that one of the underperforming railway lines, Limerick Ballybrophy, is likely to be closed, is a stark reality check for any hopes of a railway being re-opened between Athenry to Tuam onwards towards Claremorris at anytime in the near future, said Quinn. The time has now come for a decision.
Minister Ross sent the greenway campaign an email in October, which the group has released. In that email received on October 17th Minister Ross said the following about the NTA report he had on his desk, this report has led to the recent memo to cabinet about potential line closures.
“I will have to examine this commitment in the context of the Rail Review which I have recently received from the NTA and Irish Rail. The review is a strategic look at the role of Irish Rail and the financial resources required to continue to provide services on a sustainable basis. Clearly, I cannot look at the Western Rail Corridor in isolation from the rest of the network. I expect to brief my cabinet colleagues on the Review shortly”
(Shane Ross Minister of Transport email to Brendan Quinn on October 17th 2016)
Greenway campaigners now say with absolutely no chance of new railway lines being opened, the option of placing a greenway on the route until such time as a railway may be possible in the future is the best way of protecting the route in public ownership and generating tourism related jobs along the route as part of the Atlantic economic corridor project.
ENDS: body text 418 words Contacts: Brendan Quinn 087 4198193 sligomayogreenwaycampaignemail brenquinn@eircom.net
Email received from Shane Ross Minister of Transport on October 17th 2016-10-24 Sent to Greenway campaign group Western Rail Trail to Brendan Quinn
Our Ref: SR/16/12359
Dear Brendan
I wish to thank you for your correspondence of the 31st of May relating to the proposed study on the Western Rail Corridor. I apologies for the delay in responding.
The Programme for Partnership Government includes a commitment to provide for an independent costing and review of a proposal to extend the Western Rail Corridor (WRC) by linking Athenry and Claremorris. I’m aware that there is considerable debate as to whether the Western Rail Corridor should be re-opened as a rail link or re-developed as a greenway. I have received a number of representations supporting both proposals.
I will have to examine this commitment in the context of the Rail Review which I have recently received from the NTA and Irish Rail. The review is a strategic look at the role of Irish Rail and the financial resources required to continue to provide services on a sustainable basis. Clearly, I cannot look at the Western Rail Corridor in isolation from the rest of the network. I expect to brief my cabinet colleagues on the Review shortly.
I then intend to ensure that the public and all interested parties get an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the future of rail and I intend that this will be done by publication of the review and commencement of a public consultation process on it.
I look forward to considering all contributions made during this process.
With best wishes,
Shane Ross
How much per passenger is the Ennis Athenry line costing the taxpayer per year to keep open, does anyone know?0 -
Idbatterim wrote: »guys! Its all CIE's fault!
actually, it is . maybe learn about CIE and how they operate. plenty of material here on this website. but of course some will never get it.Idbatterim wrote: »sure all that we need is a 27 fold rise in passenger numbers, and it will pay for itself
the railway as a whole doesn't and never will pay for itself. however it does offer a benefit in terms of offering people who wouldn't use public transport otherwise a service.Idbatterim wrote: »how many of those are on a travel pass too? Its a disgrace, shut it down!
for what. it's not as if it's going to save money. it's not as if the resources will be used elsewhere. it's not as if they're will be any return for it. they're never is . they're never has been. they're never will be. not in ireland. the only thing shutting a line does in this country is reward CIE for deliberate failure. but yeah, keep ranting "it's a disgrace begod" shut it down begorra" if it makes you feel better.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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There's no doubt that anyone who thinks that the WRC will be extended in the next twenty years is seriously deluded. We just can't afford it, not just the capital cost but also the subvention.
I'm amazed that West-on-crack haven't at least some members in their little group with the guts to stand up and say that, and look for achievable investment for the route that will keep it public and create sustainable jobs. is the 'group-think' mentality so strong that it overcomes all logic?
I think it will be extended in the next 20 years. I don't agree with it and I'm certainly not deluded. I assume you are referring to those that WANT it extended.0 -
Is that really the best that you can do? Do you not understand that CIE have been trying to close down certain lines for decades and have deliberately run them into the ground. The management and unions don't give a damn for the users as long as they (the management and staff) are looked after - the golden handshake/lump. I'll raise your roll eyes. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Very true.
Ballybrophy - Limerick. Limerick Junction - Rosslare.
All proposed for closure since the 1970s. They were also proposed for closure in 2002 while IE were receiving unprecedented funding from the Government. IE do not care about these routes. You could throw a billion euro at CIE in the morning and they still wouldn't care. Now combine that with the political decision to invest 110 million in the WRC, while the aforementioned OPEN lines were forgotten and you should see the dysfunctional approach to railways in this country.0 -
replies noted! Look out how dispersed our population is! There is no centre of any size, outside of Dublin. We have spent a fortune on a national road network. Never mind outside of Dublin, even in Dublin, there are so many routes where public transport makes no sense currently. I am a huge advocate for rail expenditure closer in to Dublin and potentially electrifying cork to belfast via Dublin (and its airport potentially)
Much of the rural stuff to me though, even if you doubled passenger numbers, would still be a joke. You cant just say, some will switch to car etc. If that is the case, so be it... where do you draw the line? The figures are simply so laughable on many of these routes from what I see, that I cannot even fathom how they operate. I dont dispute more could be done to increase numbers, but from what, beyond a joke, to what slightly less of a joke?!
Here I am being accused of being anti rail! Rail is the only solution for Dublins and the great dublin areas gridlock. If they built a spur to dublin airport, these trains on the WRC could be move to there for example. Safe to say, they would carry more than 73 passengers a day? Start building large park and rides near or at train-stations outside the m50 belt, start linking up the dublin rail network, with dart underground etc.0 -
Idbatterim wrote: »replies noted! Look out how dispersed our population is! There is no centre of any size, outside of Dublin. We have spent a fortune on a national road network. Never mind outside of Dublin, even in Dublin, there are so many routes where public transport makes no sense currently. I am a huge advocate for rail expenditure closer in to Dublin and potentially electrifying cork to belfast via Dublin (and its airport potentially)
Much of the rural stuff to me though, even if you doubled passenger numbers, would still be a joke. You cant just say, some will switch to car etc. If that is the case, so be it... where do you draw the line? The figures are simply so laughable on many of these routes from what I see, that I cannot even fathom how they operate. I dont dispute more could be done to increase numbers, but from what, beyond a joke, to what slightly less of a joke?!
Here I am being accused of being anti rail! Rail is the only solution for Dublins and the great dublin areas gridlock. If they built a spur to dublin airport, these trains on the WRC could be move to there for example. Safe to say, they would carry more than 73 passengers a day? Start building large park and rides near or at train-stations outside the m50 belt, start linking up the dublin rail network, with dart underground etc.
You're missing the point!
The overarching policy issue with regards to rail policy in Ireland can be summed up as follows:
'Sure they have it up in Dublin, so we're entitled to the same.'
Cost is not an issue, or the economics of providing the service. As we can see from today's news stories, it's all about getting people elected, and the little phrase above is key.0 -
'Sure they have it up in Dublin, so we're entitled to the same.'
Cost is not an issue, or the economics of providing the service. As we can see from today's news stories, it's all about getting people elected, and the little phrase above is key.
I see the usual ignorant and idiotic comments under the independent article. "Dublin has it, Dublin Dublin Dublin" Do I go asking for some London like network in Dublin, because london has one? Because both are cities? You cant compare them, the way you cant compare Dublin and the rest of the country.
Our infrastructure in Dublin is appalling, due to how much revenue goes out to subsidize the rest of the country and its still not enough for them! Its high time figures were put out in the public domain, to end this myth once and for all!0 -
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end of the road wrote: »the railway as a whole doesn't and never will pay for itself. however it does offer a benefit in terms of offering people who wouldn't use public transport otherwise a service.
The level of subvention per passenger is the problem; it's out of all proportion. When it becomes cheaper to send a limo for somebody, running an empty carbon-hungry train up and down a line built with borrowed money is nuts, unless you're living in North Korea. You could offer a better service with local transport that would actually get people to and from their homes, not to and from the nearest railway station.
rail is an excellent solution for moving people in a heavily-populated urban environment, or between centres of large population, but other than that it is dated, inefficient and expensive. To make it worse, lines that are losing this kind of money are a drag on the viable routes, the rotten apples that contaminate the whole barrel.0 -
How much per passenger is the Ennis Athenry line costing the taxpayer per year to keep open, does anyone know?
It was €84 euro a couple of years ago, but numbers have crept up since then. However the increased numbers were achieved largely by discounting, so revenues haven't improved to any extent. I'd say we'll have an exact figure tomorrow.
Apparently it's the third worst performing line in Irleand. Ballybrophy is the worst, then Limerick Junction-Waterford, and then Ennis-Athenry. All of them are political lines, i.e. operated as vote-gatherers and unrelated to logic (unless you're a local politician seeking re-election).0 -
Apparently it's the third worst performing line in Irleand. Ballybrophy is the worst, then Limerick Junction-Waterford, and then Ennis-Athenry. All of them are political lines, i.e. operated as vote-gatherers and unrelated to logic (unless you're a local politician seeking re-election).
I am sure they are great if you are on a free travel pass too!0 -
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Minister Sean Canney has "ordered" Galway County Council to rebuild the rail bridge at Ballyglunin. A letter in the Tuam Herald claims it will cost in excess of €100 million. Alan Kelly TD was justifying Ballybrophy-limerick today on the basis the local Councils were funding Knock Airport. I propose multiplying the LPT( local property tax) by a factor of ten for Galway & Mayo (only) and open up the whole fecken lot, a cable car up Croagh Patrick included.0
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Muckyboots wrote: »Minister Sean Canney has "ordered" Galway County Council to rebuild the rail bridge at Ballyglunin. A letter in the Tuam Herald claims it will cost in excess of €100 million. Alan Kelly TD was justifying Ballbofey-limerick today on the basis the local Councils were funding Knock Airport. I propose multiplying the LPT( local property tax) by a factor of ten for Galway & Mayo (only) and open up the whole fecken lot, a cable car up Croagh Patrick included.
Ballybofey-Limerick? must have been built very quietly.0 -
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Idbatterim wrote: »replies noted! Look out how dispersed our population is! There is no centre of any size, outside of Dublin.
cork, limerick, galway, waterford. or are you going to tell me nobody lives there?Idbatterim wrote: »We have spent a fortune on a national road network.
that's no excuse for the destruction of the rail network. tried, proven a failed argument decades ago.Idbatterim wrote: »Never mind outside of Dublin, even in Dublin, there are so many routes where public transport makes no sense currently.
if it doesn't make sense it wouldn't exist. it exists because it makes sense to provide it, due to the benefits it brings.Idbatterim wrote: »Much of the rural stuff to me though, even if you doubled passenger numbers, would still be a joke.
no it wouldn't. 99% of the rail network in this country is viable. if it wasn't it would have closed decades ago. it didn't, because it's viable.Idbatterim wrote: »You cant just say, some will switch to car etc. If that is the case, so be it...
i can and will say it, and it isn't so be it if i have to pay more taxes on roads to facilitate themIdbatterim wrote: »where do you draw the line?
where do you draw the line. when we have nothing left outside dublin? no thanks. we won't allow our services to be stolen.Idbatterim wrote: »The figures are simply so laughable on many of these routes from what I see, that I cannot even fathom how they operate.
many? nonsense. the figures are laughable absolutely, because they cannot be trusted due to many many reasons. the network operates because the numbers are there.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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aIdbatterim wrote: »I dont dispute more could be done to increase numbers, but from what, beyond a joke, to what slightly less of a joke?!
your obsessed with this "beyond a joke" tripe. they aren't beyond a joke. it's their running into the ground that can be classed as that.Idbatterim wrote: »Here I am being accused of being anti rail!
by who. all though, i am wondering a tad if i'm honest.Idbatterim wrote: »Rail is the only solution for Dublins and the great dublin areas gridlock.
and for where it exists currentlyIdbatterim wrote: »If they built a spur to dublin airport, these trains on the WRC could be move to there for example.
but they won't be. that's the reality.Idbatterim wrote: »Safe to say, they would carry more than 73 passengers a day?
maybe they wouldn't. who knows.Idbatterim wrote: »Start building large park and rides near or at train-stations outside the m50 belt, start linking up the dublin rail network, with dart underground etc.
that should be done anyway. no need for the rest of us to have our services stolen from us. we won't be able to benefit from the likes of DU then. nobody is going to waste their time driving just to get to it. they will just drive. a direct train or even a cross platform change is more attractive however.It was €84 euro a couple of years ago, but numbers have crept up since then. However the increased numbers were achieved largely by discounting, so revenues haven't improved to any extent. I'd say we'll have an exact figure tomorrow.
Apparently it's the third worst performing line in Irleand. Ballybrophy is the worst, then Limerick Junction-Waterford, and then Ennis-Athenry. All of them are political lines, i.e. operated as vote-gatherers and unrelated to logic (unless you're a local politician seeking re-election).
all of them are political lines? really? whatever about the wrc, and limerick ballybroaphy where a politician simply forced the company to provide services because they wouldn't have bothered otherwise, limerick junction waterford has had nothing in terms of political help. unless of course you are talking about CIE's brand of politics which means it is being ran into the ground.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »all of them are political lines? really? whatever about the wrc, and limerick ballybroaphy where a politician simply forced the company to provide services because they wouldn't have bothered otherwise, limerick junction waterford has had nothing in terms of political help. unless of course you are talking about CIE's brand of politics which means it is being ran into the ground.
Yes they are all political lines. Every line in the country is political.
In relation to Limerick junction - Waterford and ultimately Rosslare, it too was political. In 2002 the proposal to close it by CIE was halted by the then transport minister, the late Seamus Brennan. That's political.0 -
sorry, if CIE are so self sabbotaging, why up the dart frequency etc? In relation to Galway, waterford etc. They may be towns or cities by irish standards, they are glorified villages. With excellent motorways networks linking them to dublin by dirt cheap buses.Originally Posted by Idbatterim View Post
We have spent a fortune on a national road network.
replythat's no excuse for the destruction of the rail network. tried, proven a failed argument decades ago.
the lack of investment in rail is criminal. But I think the fortune that was spent on the roads v rail, is one reason why it is so difficult for rail to compete...Originally Posted by Idbatterim View Post
where do you draw the line?
replywhere do you draw the line. when we have nothing left outside dublin? no thanks. we won't allow our services to be stolen.
I am going to invert this, is it ok for Dublin to have the sham infrastructure it has, because rural Ireland consumes so much of Dublins resources or lets call a spade a spade, euros?Originally Posted by Idbatterim View Post
Much of the rural stuff to me though, even if you doubled passenger numbers, would still be a joke.
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viable because of what? the massive PSO?no it wouldn't. 99% of the rail network in this country is viable. if it wasn't it would have closed decades ago. it didn't, because it's viable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idbatterim View Post
Never mind outside of Dublin, even in Dublin, there are so many routes where public transport makes no sense currently.
if it doesn't make sense it wouldn't exist. it exists because it makes sense to provide it, due to the benefits it brings.0 -
How much per passenger is the Ennis Athenry line costing the taxpayer per year to keep open, does anyone know?
Page 41 of the NTA rail review has Limerick Galway subvention at €44 euro per passenger journey in 2015.
It is the third worst performing line in terms of subvention per passenger journey. However it still seems to be a protected species as indicated on page 44, so there life in the old WOC dog yet."The Ennis to Athenry section of rail line should only be considered for closure after a full review is carried out of the extension of the Western Rail corridor and when the National Planning Framework has been published"0 -
end of the road wrote: »cork, limerick, galway, waterford. or are you going to tell me nobody lives there?
that's no excuse for the destruction of the rail network. tried, proven a failed argument decades ago.
if it doesn't make sense it wouldn't exist. it exists because it makes sense to provide it, due to the benefits it brings.
no it wouldn't. 99% of the rail network in this country is viable. if it wasn't it would have closed decades ago. it didn't, because it's viable.
i can and will say it, and it isn't so be it if i have to pay more taxes on roads to facilitate them
where do you draw the line. when we have nothing left outside dublin? no thanks. we won't allow our services to be stolen.
many? nonsense. the figures are laughable absolutely, because they cannot be trusted due to many many reasons. the network operates because the numbers are there.
Jesus H Christ! EOTR, what are you going on about? You lack any kind of real historical knowledge of railways in Ireland. Its as if you learned all you know on Boards.ie.
Outside of Dublin there are no population centres that compare with the capital on any level. Technically they barely justify a rail service considering the improved and necessary road network.
None of the rail network in Ireland is viable under the current set up and that set up goes back to the formation of CIE and the explosion in private car/road use. The argument about railways has always been based on making them pay for themselves. Since the 1940s we have had report after report that lead to closure after closure and we are still in the very same situation. You crowing on about subvention and destruction and benefit means sweet fanny adams.
The bottom line in relation to railways in Ireland is as follows.
1. Is the state willing to retain whats left and subvent it accordingly.
2. Is the state willing to reform the railway from management to worker in order to get the best possible value from subvention.
3. Is the state willing to do the above and then stop sticking its nose in.0 -
Jesus H Christ! EOTR, what are you going on about? You lack any kind of real historical knowledge of railways in Ireland. Its as if you learned all you know on Boards.ie.
i certainly did not learn the vast majority of what i do know from this site. i never once claimed i was well versed on historical knowledge either. they're is no point in you complaining about people knowing less then you unless you are willing to give the information or point one to get it. none of us know everything.Outside of Dublin there are no population centres that compare with the capital on any level. Technically they barely justify a rail service considering the improved and necessary road network.
but i never said any of the cities compared to the capital. i stated that they were population centres. if i was to state they were compared to the capital then i would have stated as such. i didn't because they aren't. they are however the best places to start growing after dublin.
i don't agree they barely justify a rail service, i believe they do justify a rail service, and i believe the network can be grown but it's going to take a lot of will. i ultimately believe the will isn't there but that doesn't mean it won't be one day, which is why we must protect what we have, otherwise once it's gone it's gone and some time down the line we will regret it, i have no doubt about it. the fact the current system is a shambles doesn't mean we should give up, and that we can't have a proper functioning network.None of the rail network in Ireland is viable under the current set up and that set up goes back to the formation of CIE and the explosion in private car/road use. The argument about railways has always been based on making them pay for themselves. Since the 1940s we have had report after report that lead to closure after closure and we are still in the very same situation. You crowing on about subvention and destruction and benefit means sweet fanny adams.
i'm not "crowing on" about anything. i'm expressing my opinion. how about if you believe me to be wrong, tell me why instead of telling me how this and that means nothing, when i all ready know nothing on here will change anything, and nor did i ever claim it would.
i don't know what you would call the same old same old tricks that lead to lines being ran down, investing in said lines which leads to no improvements, before ultimately they are closed but i certainly believe it to be a slow destruction. what else could it be. it certainly isn't normal behaviour.The bottom line in relation to railways in Ireland is as follows.
1. Is the state willing to retain whats left and subvent it accordingly.
2. Is the state willing to reform the railway from management to worker in order to get the best possible value from subvention.
3. Is the state willing to do the above and then stop sticking its nose in.
i know this. i have probably even stated it myself at various times.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Keep the non WRC talk off this thread. There's a Rail Review thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057670939
And please stop the bickering!
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West on Smack must be delighted with the fine weather, as it's delayed the annual shutdown of the wrc by a few weeks.
What's their position on the Mayo Greenway? How many freight trains per day do they reckon it should take?0 -
Grandeeod wrote:None of the rail network in Ireland is viable under the current set up and that set up goes back to the formation of CIE and the explosion in private car/road use. The argument about railways has always been based on making them pay for themselves. Since the 1940s we have had report after report that lead to closure after closure and we are still in the very same situation. You crowing on about subvention and destruction and benefit means sweet fanny adams.
Reports generated by the Hatchet man of a culture that despises trains as a symptom of backwardness and inferiority, no matter what the evidence elsewhere?0 -
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Carawaystick wrote: »West on Smack must be delighted with the fine weather, as it's delayed the annual shutdown of the wrc by a few weeks.
What's their position on the Mayo Greenway? How many freight trains per day do they reckon it should take?
Two. One for the Dublin route and a branch line all to itself for the other freight train, of course WOT/WOC/WOS forecast is based on the most optimistic forecast scenario outlined in the Western Development Commission report on freight. The person who commissioned the WDC report has been an open supporter of WOT for over a decade, and the company which wrote the report has a vested interest in the rail freight industry, a great combination using public money to get a report to say what you want it to!
Of course the freight argument does not apply north of Claremorris yet WOT are trying their best to deny Sligo a greenway on the route from Collooney to the Mayo county border at Charlestown and on the Mayo section from Charlestown to Claremorris have managed to scupper things with Mayo county council suggesting a velo rail on the route to preserve the rotting timbers and railway line that is as good as useless but above all stops the greenway from happening.0
This discussion has been closed.
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