Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Muckyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

Good thing they don't evaluate roads the same way that they do railways, if they did, there are quite a few kilometres of road around here that would have been abandoned decades ago!
The costs of maintenance far exceeding any economic value of the traffic on them.

There are quite a few kilometers of roads that have been abandonded for decades and some even up in the big shmoke, but nobody is being gang whipped into running a loss making service on them for the pleasure of false prophets.

Lucan to Castleknock + most of the roads around Ballyfermot and Kylemore.... before you ask.

Del.Monte

Grandeeod wrote: »

What an utterly stupid post. First of all, there are no MOTORWAYS (I personally dislike your "stage Irish" language) to nowhere. The motorway building programme in this country was perhaps the best economic future proofing thing ever. While not as busy as they are built for and still commanding lots of money by way of toll operator "subventions", they have made Ireland smaller and offered faster/safer public and private transport options. Local roads are improving all the time, unless you are talking about a laneway up to 4 bungalows that also demand electricity, sewerage and broadband. Different argument. As for the railway. Step back. Leave your issues behind you. Look at it compared to 20 years ago. Its far more modern, safer and to some extent faster. There are major operational issues, but the massive investment in railways over the last 15 years has transformed them.

I think you need to get out more, because your opinions often belie reality.

That's a pile of crap and you know it. CIE have had millions thrown at them over the last thirty years and what's to show. No freight worth a damn, closures and abandonments (Rosslare/Waterford the WRC, Mullingar/Athlone), trains in many cases slower than they were in the 1990's, ICR tin cans instead of decent loco hauled stock, Malahide, sell-off of strategic assets such as rail yards, demolition of buildings on a scale akin to the German retreat from Moscow, scrapping of perfectly good Mk.III stock.... Anything good that has happened - Midleton, Phoenix Park Tunnel, WRC Phase.1. has been forced upon them.

I'm outta here for now lest we fall out.

westtip

JCX BXC wrote: »

The assertion that Ennis-Athenry will be chopped is quite funny.

If we are lucky, Limerick to Ballybrophy will be gone and that should help cover a few losses.

I agree it is unlikely a line open six years ago will be given the chop but......

The fact that the possibility of closing Ennis-Athenry has even entered mainstream political media debate is hardly an endorsement for the idea of extending north of Athenry, This is what West on Track need to grasp, only 6 years after their victorious reopening of Ennis Athenry the media is talking about it potentially closing, they (West on Track) are on the defensive explaining numbers, saying things like the Ennis Athenry usage numbers are not the true numbers using the so called Western Rail Corridor - wrong because to travel Limerick Galway you have to travel Ennis Athenry, so the numbers using Ennis Athenry are the true "corridor" numbers. It is really quite sad.

The grounds for any support for the rest of the big project, are gone the likelihood of it happening is zero. Its over. Kapput, Finito.

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

they (West on Track) are on the defensive explaining numbers, saying things like the Ennis Athenry usage numbers are not the true numbers using the so called Western Rail Corridor - wrong because to travel Limerick Galway you have to travel Ennis Athenry, so the numbers using Ennis Athenry are the true "corridor" numbers. It is really quite sad.

through galway limerick usage is decent from what i have heard. no links availible though. now the couple of stations on that stretch could probably go but the question is whether their closure would bring any actual time saving or even cost saving as they must be very basic?

JCX BXC

Ardrahan I would definitely flag for closure, could knock 3-4 minutes off the service if done right. I think Craughwell and Gort are just about okay, maybe some advertising of the service wouldn't go astray.

When the line was being built it's a pity they didn't alter it a bit so that it would come in to the east of Athenry and negate the need for a lengthy switching of ends for the driver. As far as I can see there's no real obstacles in the way.

Constant publicity about the line possibly closing won't do it any favours whatsoever. It won't close and I think an acknowledgement of that would help.

eastwest

JCX BXC wrote: »

Ardrahan I would definitely flag for closure, could knock 3-4 minutes off the service if done right. I think Craughwell and Gort are just about okay, maybe some advertising of the service wouldn't go astray.

When the line was being built it's a pity they didn't alter it a bit so that it would come in to the east of Athenry and negate the need for a lengthy switching of ends for the driver. As far as I can see there's no real obstacles in the way.

Constant publicity about the line possibly closing won't do it any favours whatsoever. It won't close and I think an acknowledgement of that would help.

Doesn't the 'just about ok' description of Gort speak volumes though? The WRC was supposed to be a panacea for all the ills of the towns along the corridor, but even towns like Gort haven't become rich on the back of the railroad.
What rail campaigners fail to grasp is that this isn't the wild west; the railway isn't the key to unlocking riches and prosperity. Nowadays a decent motorway link, industrial broadband and local services sustained by an influx of outside money form tourism are the things that keep places alive and provide employment.
A slow train creaking its way through a town isn't a magic bullet, and (as in this case) it can sometimes suck up resources that could be better spent.

Muckyboots

JCX BXC wrote: »

Constant publicity about the line possibly closing won't do it any favours whatsoever. It won't close and I think an acknowledgement of that would help.

If Irish Rail were using the Indo & national media to fly a kite yesterday as a mood tester, the so called pro-rail brigade didn't do themselves any favours. Hardly a whimper in return. Mattie McGrath on Newstalk was all over the shop and even Alan Kelly simply bounced the ball back to Sean Canney, who was nowhere to be seen or heard. The vox pop on the platform in Nenagh was pure comedy. This obvious shot across the bows of the NBRU might have more far reaching consequenses. WRC Phase 2 ?- You're having a laugh.

Del.Monte

Muckyboots wrote: »

If Irish Rail were using the Indo & national media to fly a kite yesterday as a mood tester, the so called pro-rail brigade didn't do themselves any favours. Hardly a whimper in return. Mattie McGrath on Newstalk was all over the shop and even Alan Kelly simply bounced the ball back to Sean Canney, who was nowhere to be seen or heard. The vox pop on the platform in Nenagh was pure comedy. This obvious shot across the bows of the NBRU might have more far reaching consequenses. WRC Phase 2 ?- You're having a laugh.

The "so called" pro-rail brigade don't get a look in on the national media and the fools (Barry Kenny, Alan Kelly and lazy vox pops) don't help while the always available anti-rail charlatans like Pat Kenny, Dr.Sean Barrett, Shane Coleman, Colm McCarthy are free to spout their ****e unchallenged. Needless to say, that useless prick Shane Ross (Minister for Stepaside Garda Station) kept his head down.

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

The "so called" pro-rail brigade don't get a look in on the national media and the fools (Barry Kenny, Alan Kelly and lazy vox pops) don't help while the always available anti-rail charlatans like Pat Kenny, Dr.Sean Barrett, Shane Coleman, Colm McCarthy are free to spout their ****e unchallenged. Needless to say, that useless prick Shane Ross (Minister for Stepaside Garda Station) kept his head down.

Everyone's out of step except my Johnny.

BoatMad

Look at it compared to 20 years ago. Its far more modern, safer and to some extent faster. There are major operational issues, but the massive investment in railways over the last 15 years has transformed them.

the moniker " modern " doesnt actually mean anything

anyone that has travelled on loco hauled coaching stock, like Mk2 and Mk3 will tell you its a better experience, quieter , smoother etc . equally seat pitch now approaches airline standards ( low ) compared to historical position where it was more like a living room chair ( have you ever travelled in a compartment carriage for example )

No , modern rail travel is " brutal " , costs cut to the bone, minimal personnel , low service delivery ,matched by equally low customer expectation, rail speeds on average are still now, and often lower then steam days when rail maintenance standards were actually higher , service is poor and on train facilities a mere shadow of its former self

we are watching a mode of transport that is dying , not getting better

L1011

If you think costs are high on lightly travelled sections using a DMU; you don't want to imagine what they were with loco hauled stock...

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

Needless to say, that useless prick Shane Ross (Minister for Stepaside Garda Station) kept his head down.

He is going to have to dodge a few bullets on this one!:D The problem with Ross is he has allied himself with Canney, who is a diehard when it comes to WOT. He cannot get out of the rather stupid commitments he has given to Canney to stop the greenway, my guess is he is going to land himself in it for continuing to support the idea of stopping the greenway which is what Canney is now holding a gun to his head about.

BoatMad

L1011 wrote: »

If you think costs are high on lightly travelled sections using a DMU; you don't want to imagine what they were with loco hauled stock...

probably not much greater , CIEs main costs where in staff anyway ,

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

we are watching a mode of transport that is dying , not getting better

But rail is not dying!

Luas is rail, in the last 15 years it has added 34 million people a year being carried by rail. With the opening of LCC it may well be on the way to surpassing the number of passengers carried by IR in total. And just wait until you see how many people MN will carry if built.

Rail is going from strength to strength, almost twice as many people in Ireland are transported by rail then 20 years ago!

What we are seeing is the dying of Victorian lines meandering through rural Ireland, where it just can't compete with roads and instead a refocusing on what rail does best at in the modern world, urban mass transit.

Taytosnax

westtip wrote: »

He is going to have to dodge a few bullets on this one!:D The problem with Ross is he has allied himself with Canney, who is a diehard when it comes to WOT. He cannot get out of the rather stupid commitments he has given to Canney to stop the greenway, my guess is he is going to land himself in it for continuing to support the idea of stopping the greenway which is what Canney is now holding a gun to his head about.

You are claiming that Shane Ross has committed to stopping your Greenway proposals. Have you got a link to back that claim up?

L1011

BoatMad wrote: »

probably not much greater , CIEs main costs where in staff anyway ,

It's vastly greater. Fuel and staff costs alone are near double before you get in to capacity - a hell of a lot more people fit on a commuter layout DMU than an equivalent length of loco hauled stock.

Operational flexibility is near non-existant unless you go push-pull in which case you're now using even more equipment

Loco haulage is suitable for high demand and freight; not low passenger demand. There is a reason it has been abandoned for that everywhere, on an ongoing basis for almost 100 years.

BoatMad

a hell of a lot more people fit on a commuter layout DMU than an equivalent length of loco hauled stock.

I was taking about intercity rather then commuter , I agree electric DMU is the way to go for journeys under 1 hour

L1011

BoatMad wrote: »

I was taking about intercity rather then commuter , I agree electric DMU is the way to go for journeys under 1 hour

I was talking about lightly trafficked sections in general. There are plenty of journeys well over 2 hours here that could not justify loco haulage except in a spotters dreams.

The extra costs involved with loco haulage are not justifiable nearly all the time.

BoatMad

L1011 wrote: »

I was talking about lightly trafficked sections in general. There are plenty of journeys well over 2 hours here that could not justify loco haulage except in a spotters dreams.

The extra costs involved with loco haulage are not justifiable nearly all the time.

my argument is not really about loco hauled

its about the decline in carriage standards , the engine pulling the thing is of little relevance

L1011

BoatMad wrote: »

my argument is not really about loco hauled

its about the decline in carriage standards , the engine pulling the thing is of little relevance

The two are intrinsically linked

end of the road

bk wrote: »

But rail is not dying!

Luas is rail, in the last 15 years it has added 34 million people a year being carried by rail. With the opening of LCC it may well be on the way to surpassing the number of passengers carried by IR in total. And just wait until you see how many people MN will carry if built.

Rail is going from strength to strength, almost twice as many people in Ireland are transported by rail then 20 years ago!

What we are seeing is the dying of Victorian lines meandering through rural Ireland, where it just can't compete with roads and instead a refocusing on what rail does best at in the modern world, urban mass transit.

99% of the network goes through decent sized towns and are heavily used dispite motor way competition. has the motor way caused a reduction, of course. did IE fail in trying to compete, absolutely. but are most of those lines viable including 2 on the hit list for closure, yes.
in my opinion, the "re-focusing" on what rail supposibly does best, dispite it doing what it does best on the majority of the network is a mix of politically motivated misguided nonsense to benefit roads and the roads lobby, and CIE trying to offload lines it has utter contempt for for their own reasons which have nothing to do with losses.

L1011 wrote: »

The two are intrinsically linked

however his point is still valid. the onboard environment on our network has declined hugely while the prices have risen. we are essentially operating along the lines of some parts of the early years of the privatized railway in the uk.

Muckyboots

Taytosnax wrote: »

You are claiming that Shane Ross has committed to stopping your Greenway proposals. Have you got a link to back that claim up?

It's written into the programme for Government - but on the other hand in reply to a Seanad question Minister Ross said "While I have no objection to the proposal by some groups to create a greenway along the disused railway line, it is ultimately a matter for the relevant local authority to progress and submit, if funding is required, a proposal for consideration to my Department".

http://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2017-07-20/2/

Taytosnax

Muckyboots wrote: »

It's written into the programme for Government - but on the other hand in reply to a Seanad question Minster Ross said "While I have no objection to the proposal by some groups to create a greenway along the disused railway line, it is ultimately a matter for the relevant local authority to progress and submit, if funding is required, a proposal for consideration to my Department".

http://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2017-07-20/2/

Sorry but that isn't Shane Ross trying to stop your Greenway ideas, he's simply pointing out how to achieve them using due process.

I will throw this one out to you, if land to build your Greenway came available would you take it or does it have to be specifically the railway line?

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

It's written into the programme for Government - but on the other hand in reply to a Seanad question Minister Ross said "While I have no objection to the proposal by some groups to create a greenway along the disused railway line, it is ultimately a matter for the relevant local authority to progress and submit, if funding is required, a proposal for consideration to my Department".

http://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2017-07-20/2/

there is no such idea to stop the greenway written in to the program for government. what is said is it's a matter for the local authorities and if they want funding, they have to make a submission like everyone else who would put forward a proposal to government. as in, they have to go through the process availible. sounds fair enough to me.

Muckyboots

Taytosnax wrote: »

Muckyboots wrote: »

It's written into the programme for Government - but on the other hand in reply to a Seanad question Minster Ross said "While I have no objection to the proposal by some groups to create a greenway along the disused railway line, it is ultimately a matter for the relevant local authority to progress and submit, if funding is required, a proposal for consideration to my Department".

http://beta.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2017-07-20/2/

Sorry but that isn't Shane Ross trying to stop your Greenway ideas, he's simply pointing out how to achieve them using due process.

I will throw this one out to you, if land to build your Greenway came available would you take it or does it have to be specifically the railway line?

You are missing the point. There is a disused rail line and crumbling railway heritage that needs to be addressed.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

You are missing the point. There is a disused rail line and crumbling railway heritage that needs to be addressed.

if other land became availible tomorrow for your greenway, all the way from galway to sligo. no obstructions, no bridges or such needing work, it could be availible tomorrow, would you take it?
or does it have to be the railway land?

Corca Baiscinn

Muckyboots wrote: »

If Irish Rail were using the Indo & national media to fly a kite yesterday as a mood tester, the so called pro-rail brigade didn't do themselves any favours. Hardly a whimper in return. Mattie McGrath on Newstalk was all over the shop and even Alan Kelly simply bounced the ball back to Sean Canney, who was nowhere to be seen or heard. The vox pop on the platform in Nenagh was pure comedy. This obvious shot across the bows of the NBRU might have more far reaching consequenses. WRC Phase 2 ?- You're having a laugh.

What programme had the Nenagh Vox Pop?

While Sean Canney was nowhere to be seen he was wheeled out by Dermot o' Leary of NBRU who said closures wouldn't happen as it was a political issue and "heavy hitters" includng Sean C and Alan K were agin it! Think it was on Matt Cooper I heard it

Muckyboots

end of the road wrote: »

Muckyboots wrote: »

You are missing the point. There is a disused rail line and crumbling railway heritage that needs to be addressed.

if other land became availible tomorrow for your greenway, all the way from galway to sligo. no obstructions, no bridges or such needing work, it could be availible tomorrow, would you take it?
or does it have to be the railway land?

We are on a thread called Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections). That's the topic. I don't want it to continue unused.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

if other land became availible tomorrow for your greenway, all the way from galway to sligo. no obstructions, no bridges or such needing work, it could be availible tomorrow, would you take it?
or does it have to be the railway land?

So it would be a good idea to acquire land for 100km+ of greenway when there's a partly segregated disused railway with zero chance of any services on it in the future lying idle?

Muckyboots

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

What programme had the Nenagh Vox Pop?

Was channel flickingwhile driving between Radio1 & Newstalk. Mark Gleeson of Rail Users Ireland, Robert Troy, Fianna Fail and I'm pretty sure Alan Kelly & the vox pop are on this later- but I couldn't inflict it back on myself.
http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/81889/38605/29th_August_2017_-_Newstalk_Drive_Part_2/