Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

So it would be a good idea to acquire land for 100km+ of greenway when there's a partly segregated disused railway with zero chance of any services on it in the future lying idle?

nobody said it would need to be acquired. it would be availible tomorrow. we are after all asking a fictional question here. a legitimate question however.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's a pile of crap and you know it. CIE have had millions thrown at them over the last thirty years and what's to show. No freight worth a damn, closures and abandonments (Rosslare/Waterford the WRC, Mullingar/Athlone), trains in many cases slower than they were in the 1990's, ICR tin cans instead of decent loco hauled stock, Malahide, sell-off of strategic assets such as rail yards, demolition of buildings on a scale akin to the German retreat from Moscow, scrapping of perfectly good Mk.III stock.... Anything good that has happened - Midleton, Phoenix Park Tunnel, WRC Phase.1. has been forced upon them.

I'm outta here for now lest we fall out.

Sorry Del Monte, but you are taking my post out of context. EOTR talked about crumbs and begrudgingly in relation to the rail network. I have simply pointed out that it is a better railway compared to the one we had 20 years ago once you aren't looking at it from an enthusiasts point of view.

westtip

Taytosnax wrote: »

I will throw this one out to you, if land to build your Greenway came available would you take it or does it have to be specifically the railway line?

How about this to you, if land became available to build your railway along a decent modern alignment would you take it and leave the greenway route alone or does your railway specifically have to be along the closed railway C19th alignment that will deliver the same poor service as Ennis/Athenry but which is ideal for a greenway? This the issue I have with the likes of West on Track, yes campaign for a rail route to connect Limerick Galway and Sligo, but make sure you campaign like the road lobby did for a decent product. WOT were sold down the river with a cheap cop out when they accepted re-opening the closed alignment which floods every year and which can only deliver a poor service.

Go find the alignment to build your railway on, we have a perfect alignment for "our" greenway!!!!!

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

Sorry Del Monte, but you are taking my post out of context. EOTR talked about crumbs and begrudgingly in relation to the rail network. I have simply pointed out that it is a better railway compared to the one we had 20 years ago once you aren't looking at it from an enthusiasts point of view.

i'm not looking from it as an enthusiasts point of view but that of a user. a user for over 20 years. as an enthusiast i loved traveling on the mk2 behind 071s, fantastic stuff, i found the mk2s and cravens to possibly be the most comfortable stock i ever used but lets be honest, the mk2 were clapped out by the end and as a user, i wanted them to go, they had to go.
yes we have a modern fleet, however journey times are slower, capacity is low, the onboard environment is of a low standard, revenue checking seems to be speradic, and certain lines are still been shown contempt.
i stand by my view that money is given slightly begrudgingly, and neither the politicians or the operator are in my view doing enough to insure the benefits of what is given are fully delivered and to a high standard.
by all means disagree, but i've seen enough to be convinced of my viewpoint and i have saw little to nothing to change it.
i want a rail network that is of a high standard, a rail network which attracts users and recognizes all users as a benefit. i want the railway to see what it has as a fully integrated network with services, rather then separate areas with services the company wants and areas with services the company don't, based on reasons that seem to have little to nothing to do with profit and loss.
do you believe that to be an unreasonable wish? does anyone else?

Del.Monte

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

What programme had the Nenagh Vox Pop?

While Sean Canney was nowhere to be seen he was wheeled out by Dermot o' Leary of NBRU who said closures wouldn't happen as it was a political issue and "heavy hitters" includng Sean C and Alan K were agin it! Think it was on Matt Cooper I heard it

Mary Wilson's RTE 1 show yesterday (29th Aug.) evening.

MayoForSam

Front page of the Tuam Herald this week: "Greenway would be 'economic lifeline'".

So a serving FG government minister (Ciaran Cannon) has come out and stated that 'funding for a Greenway on the old railway line from Tuam to Athenry will be available from government and the likelihood of trains returning to the track is remote'. He will also be lobbying Galway Co. councilors before a vote to support a Greenway feasibility study in September. He mentions the success of Waterford greenway in the same piece, the business opportunities on the route and proposes working with the Velo-rail project in Mayo and the Enniskillen Greenway group. He also reminded everyone that a greenway 'would still protect the asset as it would keep the route in public ownership'.

This is a real shot across the bows of Sean Canney and a few other die-hard WRC supporters. Cannon appears to have judged which way the wind is blowing in Tuam. Funnily enough, on the page 2-3 spread in the Herald, there is also a report on local hotels showing an increase in visitor numbers this year and the upcoming M17 opening boosting job numbers in the area (1200 cyclists will actually be the first ones to cycle on the new motorway for charity on September 10th). The hotels mentioned would most definitely benefit from cycle tourism if it ever comes to pass. Ballyglunin railway station (where the roof nearly fell in recently) would also get a new lease of life.

By the way, Ryanair's announcement yesterday of extra routes into Germany for next year will also attract plenty more German tourists (outdoor types), who would like nothing better than to jump on a bike when they get here and take a spin down from Dublin on the Dublin-Galway greenway, then being offered the option of going north or south for a few days through the unspoilt west of Ireland countryside.

'Build it and they will come' - should work for a Greenway, maybe not so much for the WRC.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i'm not looking from it as an enthusiasts point of view but that of a user. a user for over 20 years. as an enthusiast i loved traveling on the mk2 behind 071s, fantastic stuff, i found the mk2s and cravens to possibly be the most comfortable stock i ever used but lets be honest, the mk2 were clapped out by the end and as a user, i wanted them to go, they had to go.
yes we have a modern fleet, however journey times are slower, capacity is low, the onboard environment is of a low standard, revenue checking seems to be speradic, and certain lines are still been shown contempt.
i stand by my view that money is given slightly begrudgingly, and neither the politicians or the operator are in my view doing enough to insure the benefits of what is given are fully delivered and to a high standard.
by all means disagree, but i've seen enough to be convinced of my viewpoint and i have saw little to nothing to change it.
i want a rail network that is of a high standard, a rail network which attracts users and recognizes all users as a benefit. i want the railway to see what it has as a fully integrated network with services, rather then separate areas with services the company wants and areas with services the company don't, based on reasons that seem to have little to nothing to do with profit and loss.
do you believe that to be an unreasonable wish? does anyone else?

I'm using the network for over 40 years and I was once an enthusiast as well. I took the enthusiast blinkers off years ago. Our railway is modern and safe. Line speeds could be improved. Customer service could be improved. Unions should be chastised. Management should be clipped around the ear hole. But on the face of it and once you step back and look at it, it's a neat little railway. The entire closure issue is a completely separate issue. The WRC BS is yet again another issue. All I am saying is that the Irish railway network is better today than it was 20 years ago. Nobody can deny that with any credible argument.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

nobody said it would need to be acquired. it would be availible tomorrow. we are after all asking a fictional question here. a legitimate question however.

Its asking a completely pointless question. The answer isn't going to advance debate or be of any use in furthering argument.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Its asking a completely pointless question. The answer isn't going to advance debate or be of any use in furthering argument.

i disagree. it's a good question and it would be interesting to find out the answer of the recipients of the question.

rebel456

MayoForSam wrote: »

Front page of the Tuam Herald this week: "Greenway would be 'economic lifeline'".

So a serving FG government minister (Ciaran Cannon) has come out and stated that 'funding for a Greenway on the old railway line from Tuam to Athenry will be available from government and the likelihood of trains returning to the track is remote'. He will also be lobbying Galway Co. councilors before a vote to support a Greenway feasibility study in September.

'Build it and they will come' - should work for a Greenway, maybe not so much for the WRC.

Fantastic news. Ciaran Cannon is an avid cyclist but also a pragmatist - originally in the PD's (once upon a time their leader), he's obviously seeing a greenway as providing a better return for the local populace and businesses than a freight train trundling through once a week - or a sporadic passenger service which would be easily beaten on price & journey times by the new motorway.

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm using the network for over 40 years and I was once an enthusiast as well. I took the enthusiast blinkers off years ago. Our railway is modern and safe. Line speeds could be improved. Customer service could be improved. Unions should be chastised. Management should be clipped around the ear hole. But on the face of it and once you step back and look at it, it's a neat little railway. The entire closure issue is a completely separate issue. The WRC BS is yet again another issue. All I am saying is that the Irish railway network is better today than it was 20 years ago. Nobody can deny that with any credible argument.

Fully agree with this. Our railways isn't half bad when you step back, I regularly travel Cork/Dublin and the line-speed is above 80mph for a significant portion. I cannot remember the last time I was more than 15 mins late, in fact last Sunday I was 5 mins early. The rolling stock is mostly new, accessible, comfortable and with WiFi and sockets at each seat. Investment in the last 20 years has seen the switch to modern signalling & safer track.

Where we seem to fall down is in; ticket machine pricing, late running (last trains very early on many routes), slow line speed on the single track routes. Heuston station isolated in Dublin, etc. And wasting thousands in little used lines such as BallyB.... never mind adding WRC Stage 2 to that.

marno21

I can't understand whatsoever this notion that there will be freight trains using the railway to Tuam.

Galway is connected by rail to Limerick (onto Waterford and previously Rosslare) and Dublin by rail and services a sum total of 0 freight trains. If there is no freight going to Galway why will Tuam be a freight destination, especially given now that Tuam is connected to the motorway network?

Good to see Cannon understanding that the trackbed will deliver real benefits to Tuam as a greenway as opposed to Canney believing that a slow moving train full of pensioners is going to make Microsoft move to Tuam over Sandyford.

L1011

The one company who do like rail freight and were in Tuam were Coca Cola. And they're gone, quite some time now.

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

I can't understand whatsoever this notion that there will be freight trains using the railway to Tuam.

Galway is connected by rail to Limerick (onto Waterford and previously Rosslare) and Dublin by rail and services a sum total of 0 freight trains. If there is no freight going to Galway why will Tuam be a freight destination, especially given now that Tuam is connected to the motorway network?

Good to see Cannon understanding that the trackbed will deliver real benefits to Tuam as a greenway as opposed to Canney believing that a slow moving train full of pensioners is going to make Microsoft move to Tuam over Sandyford.

Feck Freight. Its an argument used by idiots to justify a rail network no longer required. There is a romantic view of Irish Railways and its driven by vocal enthuiasts that gets some lift in the media that is picked up on by daft politicians.

Motorways made this country a hell of lot smaller. Some people are still struggling to understand that.

Quackster

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree. it's a good question and it would be interesting to find out the answer of the recipients of the question.

And no different than the question asked in turn whether WRC supporters would take a modern alignment if it were gifted to them rather than the existing far-from-ideal alignment which would better suit a greenway.

end of the road

Quackster wrote: »

And no different than the question asked in turn whether WRC supporters would take a modern alignment if it were gifted to them rather than the existing far-from-ideal alignment which would better suit a greenway.

i agree.
if i was a supporter of the wrc (which i'm not) if a modern alignment was gifted to allow the line to be built, then i'd be saying yes definitely thank you very much.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

if other land became availible tomorrow for your greenway, all the way from galway to sligo. no obstructions, no bridges or such needing work, it could be availible tomorrow, would you take it?
or does it have to be the railway land?

Why spend that kind of money when we already own a flat route with all the bridges (well, most) intact and one that goes through the centre of the towns?
Why on earth would anyone propose reinventing the wheel to create an amenity that wouldn't be as good and would cost two to three times as much?

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

I can't understand whatsoever this notion that there will be freight trains using the railway to Tuam.

Galway is connected by rail to Limerick (onto Waterford and previously Rosslare) and Dublin by rail and services a sum total of 0 freight trains. If there is no freight going to Galway why will Tuam be a freight destination, especially given now that Tuam is connected to the motorway network?

Good to see Cannon understanding that the trackbed will deliver real benefits to Tuam as a greenway as opposed to Canney believing that a slow moving train full of pensioners is going to make Microsoft move to Tuam over Sandyford.

But when the sugar factory reopens........
Any day now.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

Why spend that kind of money when we already own a flat route with all the bridges (well, most) intact and one that goes through the centre of the towns?
Why on earth would anyone propose reinventing the wheel to create an amenity that wouldn't be as good and would cost two to three times as much?

none of that would be happening. the land for the new route is being gifted free of charge. no bridges, no obstructions, just lay the gravel and off you go. would you take it?

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

none of that would be happening. the land for the new route is being gifted free of charge. no bridges, no obstructions, just lay the gravel and off you go. would you take it?

Any chance you could be realistic here?

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

none of that would be happening. the land for the new route is being gifted free of charge. no bridges, no obstructions, just lay the gravel and off you go. would you take it?

Has anyone proposed such 'land gifting', or offered to do so? (From such ridiculously generous farmers, hundreds of such farmers, not exactly known for giving away their commodity for nothing).

If not then why propose or hypothesize something so unrealistic?

Muckyboots

marno21 wrote: »

I can't understand whatsoever this notion that there will be freight trains using the railway to Tuam.

There is a Tuam site, adjacent to the railway where plans for an anaerobic digester were pulled last minute, in the face of defeat, at An Board Pleanala oral hearings. Carriages of rotting plant material rolling through the centre of town ? The local representative that ties himself, or herself, to that idea would get the rotten tomatoes treatment.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree. it's a good question and it would be interesting to find out the answer of the recipients of the question.

Pointless exercise and a complete smokescreen by the one TD opposed to tourism in Galway East. The "alternative greenway route" has already been discredited by what is happening on the efforts to complete the Dublin Galway route and opposition there has been by landowners to the notion of CPOs and a greenway passing through farms etc. So tell me where would this free to use continuous route come from - using quiet country lanes as the greenway route is one I have heard. Yeh right whilst a 4 x 4 comes around a corner from a mansion built in the middle of nowhere and wipes out a bunch of kids with their parents on a family cycle day out.

The greenway route on the closed railway is the only viable option, and by the way is the best way of protecting the route in public ownership, I for one would have no problem with a railway being placed alongside the greenway route in future years, but could we just get on with using the route for a useful purpose now?

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

Any chance you could be realistic here?

being realistic doesn't come into it, i'm just asking a question which was asked to the greenway supporters by del.monty, a question asked out of general interest on the basis of what iffs. funny how you are all avoiding answering it though. not to worry, i all ready know the answer and my point has been proved so i will leave it there.

westtip wrote: »

So tell me where would this free to use continuous route come from - using quiet country lanes as the greenway route is one I have heard. Yeh right whilst a 4 x 4 comes around a corner from a mansion built in the middle of nowhere and wipes out a bunch of kids with their parents on a family cycle day out.

there won't be bunches of kids with their parents on a cycle day out. most modern children are into play stations and video games, not cycling. cycling really is a minority activity in ireland and is likely to remain so.
at least the quiet country lanes are quickly availible to get going today if you wanted.

end of the road

end of the road wrote:

so i will leave it there

YAY!

McAlban

I'd have reservations against investing in this route as a Greenway route even if the line had been pulled up 50 years ago. Pro-WRT Greenway users have always maintained it will be an economic injection into the towns along the route, but lets have a look here; 126km would (Currently) be the longest Greenway in the country. It would cost more to open and maintain than any other Greenway. The others either go from cities or well established tourist towns, of which Athenry, Tuam and Colloney are not. GWG, GST and Waterford Greenway all go through some of the most picturesque countryside in the World. No offence but East Galway and Mayo do not compare to the Clew Bay stretch between Mulranney and Newport or descending from Templeglantine into Abbeyfeale. However the GST is not used that much or even advertised well, that's one coup the GWG have pulled off is marketing and making it successful, and the bike hire service on this is excellent.

While it may be a local amenity for the towns and villages involved (I Personally would love to see two in my own locality opened and have actively campaigned for them) I just don't think the investment in a long distance tourist Greenway on this route will get the numbers Westtip, eastwest and others say (hope?) it will. I don't think there'll be a ROI on this route and to be honest they'd be better off pushing the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties Greenway (possibility of Cross Border investment, and also linking up to the Erne Blueway) and other routes such as Killala - Ballina; in fact in that part of the country (IMO) the Best probable tourist route for a Greenway would be Colloney to Enniskillen and possibly onwards to Irvinestown, Belleek, Ballyshannon, and Bundoran. Which does go through some spectacular countryside...

The Only Show in Mayo at the minute is extending beyond the GWG, i.e. the Eurovelo extension to Leenaune and Clifden. and maybe extending Lisa Chambers pet Greenway from Lough Lannagh to Newport. You can be guaranteed if the WRT try to get funding, the other vested interests in other Greenways will have their say.

serfboard

end of the road wrote: »

there won't be bunches of kids with their parents on a cycle day out.

You've obviously never been on the Great Western Greenway in Mayo where this is precisely what you'll see.

Isambard

serfboard wrote: »

You've obviously never been on the Great Western Greenway in Mayo where this is precisely what you'll see.

or the new one from Dungarvan...very popular with 4 cycle businesses opened in Dungarvan alone. I was amazed to see so many using it.

Taytosnax

westtip wrote: »

Pointless exercise and a complete smokescreen by the one TD opposed to tourism in Galway East.

Who is the one TD "opposed to tourism" in Galway East? I haven't seen any speeches or Dail reports from any TD opposing tourism. Now if by "opposing tourism" you mean any TD who opposes your campaign to kill railways then that is indeed a different matter. I would go further and say that anyone who may read these posts in national and local government circles will take you with all the seriousness you deserve.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

there won't be bunches of kids with their parents on a cycle day out. most modern children are into play stations and video games, not cycling. cycling really is a minority activity in ireland and is likely to remain so.
at least the quiet country lanes are quickly availible to get going today if you wanted.

Rail travel on the Nenagh & Galway/Limerick lines is also a minority activity if you look at the subsidy given.....

Anyways, I have been on a few greenways in Ireland and throughout Europe - and lone behold you get whole families taking the kids for a cycle. They can do this as there are bikes to rent and you don't face cars/trucks going past your 4 year old at 70mph.

I used cycle everywhere when younger (1990's), but now I could not let my niece/nephews out on the country lanes - traffic is going too fast with little consideration for other users, even I find it risky to cycle. That is where dedicated greenways come into play, take your kids for a day out on the bike, peddling through some nice countryside.

Taytosnax

rebel456 wrote: »

Rail travel on the Nenagh & Galway/Limerick lines is also a minority activity if you look at the subsidy given.....

Anyways, I have been on a few greenways in Ireland and throughout Europe - and lone behold you get whole families taking the kids for a cycle. They can do this as there are bikes to rent and you don't face cars/trucks going past your 4 year old at 70mph.

I used cycle everywhere when younger (1990's), but now I could not let my niece/nephews out on the country lanes - traffic is going too fast with little consideration for other users, even I find it risky to cycle. That is where dedicated greenways come into play, take your kids for a day out on the bike, peddling through some nice countryside.

I don't think you'll find many people who will disagree with you regardinig the amenity value of greenways. Sadly in the case of the WRC it has been hijacked by campaigners who are primarily motivated by their hatred of railways as a mode of transport.