Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

Rail travel on the Nenagh & Galway/Limerick lines is also a minority activity if you look at the subsidy given.....

Anyways, I have been on a few greenways in Ireland and throughout Europe - and lone behold you get whole families taking the kids for a cycle. They can do this as there are bikes to rent and you don't face cars/trucks going past your 4 year old at 70mph.

I used cycle everywhere when younger (1990's), but now I could not let my niece/nephews out on the country lanes - traffic is going too fast with little consideration for other users, even I find it risky to cycle. That is where dedicated greenways come into play, take your kids for a day out on the bike, peddling through some nice countryside.

the country lanes shouldn't be a problem if you are watching your children.
if anything cycling along them will teach the 4 year olds to be more road aware.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

the country lanes shouldn't be a problem if you are watching your children.
if anything cycling along them will teach the 4 year olds to be more road aware.

Have you tried to walk/cycle on some of these lanes? Any tiny bit of a 'straight' and cars have the foot down. Including the 16 year olds driving tractors. And that's even discarding the more 'main' roads, those deemed a little busier than a country lane. Often you'll have to walk/cycle down a more main road to get to a quieter lane - the greater road quality gives even greater rise to the rally-driver wannabes.

Kids will stop and stand in, but when riding a bike you often don't see/hear a fast moving vehicle until it's sped around the corner to you. I'd happily take the kids to a greenway where I can cycle along with them side-by-side at a leisurely pace, as opposed to single file along a country road - hoping I get home safe.

rebel456

Taytosnax wrote: »

I don't think you'll find many people who will disagree with you regardinig the amenity value of greenways. Sadly in the case of the WRC it has been hijacked by campaigners who are primarily motivated by their hatred of railways as a mode of transport.

And I could say that the greenway is being opposed by rail enthusiasts with rose tinted glasses. We are all entitled to our opinion without labels and presumption.

Muckyboots

rebel456 wrote: »

And I could say that the greenway is being opposed by rail enthusiasts with rose tinted glasses. We are all entitled to our opinion without labels and presumption.

I like greenways and railways and country roads and boreens- but not with a four year old on a bike. I think the train from Galway to Dublin is too expensive and the Express bus more comfortable. I love the Luas and all that goes with it. I wear lycra and a helmet on Sunday but cycle to the shop in civies on a Tuesday. I love all the old railway buildings and I still get a buzz when a train passes at speed. I think the GWG and Waterford are great but marketed to the point of exhaustion. The country-side, culture and points of interest in middle Ireland deserve the same exposure as the salty air and jaggedy rocks around the coast and every Irish town should have a fair crack at the tourist market and not be over dependent on subsidised foreign investment. If you are left or right, or on or off on this debate then that's your problem. We are all high viz wearing merchants in the end and as someone rightly pointed out earlier in the thread the vast majority of people couldn't give a flying feck if the WRC was opened, closed or carried out and dumped at sea.

rebel456

Muckyboots wrote: »

I like greenways and railways and country roads and boreens- but not with a four year old on a bike. I think the train from Galway to Dublin is too expensive and the Express bus more comfortable. I love the Luas and all that goes with it. I wear lycra and a helmet on Sunday but cycle to the shop in civies on a Tuesday. I love all the old railway buildings and I still get a buzz when a train passes at speed. I think the GWG and Waterford are great but marketed to the point of exhaustion. The country-side, culture and points of interest in middle Ireland deserve the same exposure as the salty air and jaggedy rocks around the coast and every Irish town should have a fair crack at the tourist market and not be over dependent on subsidised foreign investment. If you are left or right, or on or off on this debate then that's your problem. We are all high viz wearing merchants in the end and as someone rightly pointed out earlier in the thread the vast majority of people couldn't give a flying feck if the WRC was opened, closed or carried out and dumped at sea.

You quoted my contribution because?...

Muckyboots

rebel456 wrote: »

You quoted my contribution because?...

Because I agree with you ...and one shouldn't assume every "pro" or "anti" agree with each others views on everything else.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

the country lanes shouldn't be a problem if you are watching your children.
if anything cycling along them will teach the 4 year olds to be more road aware.

No, I have to agree with rebel456 on this. I go hiking alomst every weekend and the bit I absolutely hate about it and dread are parts of hikes where you have to walk on a rural lane, even for a few minutes. Cars just blast along at insane speeds. No way would I leave my kids walk/cycle country lanes.

BTW Ireland has absolutely stunning countryside that most foreigners are simply blown away by IME. We Irish are spoilt and take it for granted. IMO we have an absolute tourist goldmine here for more active outdoor sports, if only we could develop more dedicated infrastructure for it. More dedicated, quality hiking trails and more cycleways.

rebel456

Muckyboots wrote: »

Because I agree with you ...and one shouldn't assume every "pro" or "anti" agree with each others views on everything else.

Ah my apologies, read that wrong. Very right though, I hate being typecast based on one opinion I give. I too am pro-rail, and pro-greenway. The two opinions can happily co-exist... despite what some believe.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

being realistic doesn't come into it

About time you admitted it.

I'm not anti railway or pro greenway but there is a tracked from Athenry to Collooney with weeds growing up through it, that has plenty of segregation and is intact bar a few infringements north of Claremorris. It would be wholly unfeasible to open a railway along it for empty trains with disgraceful operating subsidies to run at 30-50mph with a brand new motorway beside it. This shouldn't happen only for the absolute drivel that Sean Canney and his like come out with and eventually ends up happening for "political reasons".

Ask Tuam whether they would like a very useful revenue generating greenway through and around their town or a slow train filled with OAPs on free travel passes that goes nowhere near where a large proportion of them are employed and see what they say.

The Phase 1 was supposed to be a roaring success and even more so given that it linked Galway to Limerick, Cork and Waterford.

* It has completely failed to draw passengers to a significant level and requires a large operating subsidy with very low fares required to attract ridership
* Contrary to claims by West on Track, there isn't large volumes of freight being transported on the line.
* The piece of "critical infrastructure" which was meant to rejuvenate places such as Ardrahan and Craughwell has led to empty car parks and trains stopping without the need to open doors.

What makes people think that these trends will reverse if the railway is carried on through open countryside with no population to a town of 8,000 people which is serviced by a motorway to its nearest three cities?

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

About time you admitted it.

I'm not anti railway or pro greenway but there is a tracked from Athenry to Collooney with weeds growing up through it, that has plenty of segregation and is intact bar a few infringements north of Claremorris. It would be wholly unfeasible to open a railway along it for empty trains with disgraceful operating subsidies to run at 30-50mph with a brand new motorway beside it. This shouldn't happen only for the absolute drivel that Sean Canney and his like come out with and eventually ends up happening for "political reasons".

Ask Tuam whether they would like a very useful revenue generating greenway through and around their town or a slow train filled with OAPs on free travel passes that goes nowhere near where a large proportion of them are employed and see what they say.

The Phase 1 was supposed to be a roaring success and even more so given that it linked Galway to Limerick, Cork and Waterford.

* It has completely failed to draw passengers to a significant level and requires a large operating subsidy with very low fares required to attract ridership
* Contrary to claims by West on Track, there isn't large volumes of freight being transported on the line.
* The piece of "critical infrastructure" which was meant to rejuvenate places such as Ardrahan and Craughwell has led to empty car parks and trains stopping without the need to open doors.

What makes people think that these trends will reverse if the railway is carried on through open countryside with no population to a town of 8,000 people which is serviced by a motorway to its nearest three cities?

Athenry/Claremorris rather than Tuam has to be the target and then a whole range of journeys not currently available become possible, but not with CIE doing the driving.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

About time you admitted it.

I'm not anti railway or pro greenway but there is a tracked from Athenry to Collooney with weeds growing up through it, that has plenty of segregation and is intact bar a few infringements north of Claremorris. It would be wholly unfeasible to open a railway along it for empty trains with disgraceful operating subsidies to run at 30-50mph with a brand new motorway beside it. This shouldn't happen only for the absolute drivel that Sean Canney and his like come out with and eventually ends up happening for "political reasons".

Ask Tuam whether they would like a very useful revenue generating greenway through and around their town or a slow train filled with OAPs on free travel passes that goes nowhere near where a large proportion of them are employed and see what they say.

The Phase 1 was supposed to be a roaring success and even more so given that it linked Galway to Limerick, Cork and Waterford.

* It has completely failed to draw passengers to a significant level and requires a large operating subsidy with very low fares required to attract ridership
* Contrary to claims by West on Track, there isn't large volumes of freight being transported on the line.
* The piece of "critical infrastructure" which was meant to rejuvenate places such as Ardrahan and Craughwell has led to empty car parks and trains stopping without the need to open doors.

What makes people think that these trends will reverse if the railway is carried on through open countryside with no population to a town of 8,000 people which is serviced by a motorway to its nearest three cities?

the motor way is no reason for the line not to reopen. expensive motor ways should have no baring on reopening or closing railways, the railway should be opened or not on it's own merrits.
there is nothing to say the trains would or wouldn't be empty and that there would be "disgraceful operating subsidies" it's speculation either way which may or may not be accurate as we don't know what would be what as the line isn't up for reopening.
most in tuam seem to have bigger priorities then greenways or railways thankfully hence only 600 people marched, hardly much support really.
west on track never stated freight was being carried on galway-limerick that i can find, all though if you can i'd like to see it. the towns in question actually shouldn't be serviced by a motor way, it's not needed or warrented as the traffic is unlikely to ever justify a motorway in that area.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

the motor way is no reason for the line not to reopen. expensive motor ways should have no baring on reopening or closing railways, the railway should be opened or not on it's own merrits.
there is nothing to say the trains would or wouldn't be empty and that there would be "disgraceful operating subsidies" it's speculation either way which may or may not be accurate as we don't know what would be what as the line isn't up for reopening.
most in tuam seem to have bigger priorities then greenways or railways thankfully hence only 600 people marched, hardly much support really.
west on track never stated freight was being carried on galway-limerick that i can find, all though if you can i'd like to see it. the towns in question actually shouldn't be serviced by a motor way, it's not needed or warrented as the traffic is unlikely to ever justify a motorway in that area.

600 people marching is 7.5% of Tuam. If 7.5% of Dublin marched for Metro North they would exceed the capacity of Croke Park. How many people are marching for the railway may I ask?

If a place isn't deserving of motorway access due to low population I don't get why they should be serviced by a railway to be honest either. It goes against the entire concept of rail transport being used to transport large volumes of people between population centres.

Disgraceful operating subsidies - the taxpayer already having to fork out ~€40 per passenger journey on Limerick-Galway. Money that could be far better spent.

Maybe it wasn't west on Track but there was definately claims that the WRC would have freight benefits. It doesn't and won't.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

600 people marching is 7.5% of Tuam. If 7.5% of Dublin marched for Metro North they would exceed the capacity of Croke Park. How many people are marching for the railway may I ask?

7.5% is not over 50% or 100%. seems there is little support for either the greenway or the railway in tuam at least.

marno21 wrote: »

If a place isn't deserving of motorway access due to low population I don't get why they should be serviced by a railway to be honest either. It goes against the entire concept of rail transport being used to transport large volumes of people between population centres.

you will have to put those questions to those campaigning for the extension of the western railway corridor. i'm not part of that campaign nor do i agree with the extension of it.

marno21 wrote: »

Disgraceful operating subsidies - the taxpayer already having to fork out ~€40 per passenger journey on Limerick-Galway. Money that could be far better spent.

Maybe it wasn't west on Track but there was definately claims that the WRC would have freight benefits. It doesn't and won't.

we don't know that it doesn't and won't, as there is no line, no business case has been set out, there won't be a line thankfully.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

the motor way is no reason for the line not to reopen. expensive motor ways should have no baring on reopening or closing railways, the railway should be opened or not on it's own merrits.
there is nothing to say the trains would or wouldn't be empty and that there would be "disgraceful operating subsidies" it's speculation either way which may or may not be accurate as we don't know what would be what as the line isn't up for reopening.
most in tuam seem to have bigger priorities then greenways or railways thankfully hence only 600 people marched, hardly much support really.
west on track never stated freight was being carried on galway-limerick that i can find, all though if you can i'd like to see it. the towns in question actually shouldn't be serviced by a motor way, it's not needed or warrented as the traffic is unlikely to ever justify a motorway in that area.

Your ignorance continues to astound me so I'll try to bring you back to your UK roots.

During the 1960s motorways were built the length and breath of the UK, a well populated island from north to south and east to west. Railways were under threat. So a well funded state decided to develop the HST/APT and before that the Pullman train, to compete with the oncoming motorway. They did that because they had a population density and money to justify it. Ireland doesn't. Once we built motorways in Ireland, it became smaller and blew the rail network out of the water. We can choose to subsidise the major rail routes or not, but your see sawing attitude to the WRC makes you look daft, foolish, ill informed and just looking for an argument that you will never finish.

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

Your ignorance continues to astound me so I'll try to bring you back to your UK roots.

During the 1960s motorways were built the length and breath of the UK, a well populated island from north to south and east to west. Railways were under threat. So a well funded state decided to develop the HST/APT and before that the Pullman train, to compete with the oncoming motorway. They did that because they had a population density and money to justify it. Ireland doesn't. Once we built motorways in Ireland, it became smaller and blew the rail network out of the water. We can choose to subsidise the major rail routes or not, but your see sawing attitude to the WRC makes you look daft, foolish, ill informed and just looking for an argument that you will never finish.

it doesn't no . ignorance, daft, foolish, ill informed don't even register with me as i'm so far away from them for any of them to ever be possible.. i'm also not from the uk. there is also no see sawing attitude to the WRC on my part, i have made my feelings on it clear all ready.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

7.5% is not over 50% or 100%. seems there is little support for either the greenway or the railway in tuam at least.

7.5% of a population to march for anything is a significant number. 600 folks out is not to be miffed at. On the wider issue, no-one in Tuam really puts greenways, railways, etc as their 'priority'. Indeed if you asked anyone on any street in Ireland what their priorities are you'd get back answers usually related to health, money, whatever.

The benefits of schemes like a Greenway are felt by folks afterwards, when they see local jobs in supporting the tourists and begin using the amenity for themselves. A local walking route at home has worked wonders and is a great spot to bring kids on the weekend - but it certainly would have been no-ones 'priority' before it opened.

end of the road wrote: »

we don't know that it doesn't and won't, as there is no line, no business case has been set out, there won't be a line thankfully.

Interesting... if you do not want a rail line, then do you support using the wasted state asset as a Greenway?

devnull

Just a reminder - keep it civil and not personal.

Moderator

westtip

Taytosnax wrote: »

I don't think you'll find many people who will disagree with you regardinig the amenity value of greenways. Sadly in the case of the WRC it has been hijacked by campaigners who are primarily motivated by their hatred of railways as a mode of transport.

I personally love railways as a mode of transport but hate to see wasted public money. some of which can be just a bridge too far.

whisky_galore

end of the road wrote: »

most in tuam seem to have bigger priorities then greenways or railways thankfully hence only 600 people marched, hardly much support really.

How many in Tuam supported Westrail back in the day? Not bloody many I'll bet.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

most in tuam seem to have bigger priorities then greenways or railways thankfully hence only 600 people marched, hardly much support really.

.

You really do a need to learn more about marketing, customer behaviour and the importance of numbers.

600 people actually bothering to get off their backsides and march in a town the size of Tuam is huge, your dismissal of this number as hardly much support is simply a denial of the overwhelming support this idea now has in Tuam and Athenry area. It really doesn't matter you are in denial, West on Track ban people from their facebook page if they mention the G word, and continue to live in a vacuum of denial of public opinion and how it has changed.

Consider this on numbers which are fairly standard learning for anyone involved in consumer goods marketing, its all about what people think and how many are actually prepared to take action:

For every customer complaint there are 26 other unhappy customers who have remained silent –Lee Resource.

96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back – 1Financial Training services.

To find the source of these you can google them.

Now consider this:

As you know from this long thread. Nearly 300 submissions on the Mayo county plan asked for a greenway (84%) of all submissions, In 2012 in Mayo a public consultation in Swinford showed overwhelming support for a greenway.

On the internet, over 3,500 people have signed petitions on change.org asking for a greenway.

Look at the number of likes etc on the various greenway FB pages.

In Sligo over 500 people have coughed up real money to become members of the Sligo Greenway Co-op.

These are all big numbers in the context of the West of Ireland. Denial is not going to change these numbers.

The Anti-tourism TD who is opposed to the Greenway got over 8,000 first preferences at the last election. Who knows maybe he will again at the next election. But imagine if people knowing he is the only candidate positively opposed to this tourism creating jobs opportunity for Athenry and Tuam think twice about this, his anti-tourism stance might (and I am only saying might) cost him his seat.

What would you say about numbers then?

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

You really do a need to learn more about marketing, customer behaviour and the importance of numbers.

600 people actually bothering to get off their backsides and march in a town the size of Tuam is huge, your dismissal of this number as hardly much support is simply a denial of the overwhelming support this idea now has in Tuam and Athenry area. It really doesn't matter you are in denial, West on Track ban people from their facebook page if they mention the G word, and continue to live in a vacuum of denial of public opinion and how it has changed.

Consider this on numbers which are fairly standard learning for anyone involved in consumer goods marketing, its all about what people think and how many are actually prepared to take action:



To find the source of these you can google them.

Now consider this:

As you know from this long thread. Nearly 300 submissions on the Mayo county plan asked for a greenway (84%) of all submissions, In 2012 in Mayo a public consultation in Swinford showed overwhelming support for a greenway.

On the internet, over 3,500 people have signed petitions on change.org asking for a greenway.

Look at the number of likes etc on the various greenway FB pages.

In Sligo over 500 people have coughed up real money to become members of the Sligo Greenway Co-op.

These are all big numbers in the context of the West of Ireland. Denial is not going to change these numbers.

The Anti-tourism TD who is opposed to the Greenway got over 8,000 first preferences at the last election. Who knows maybe he will again at the next election. But imagine if people knowing he is the only candidate positively opposed to this tourism creating jobs opportunity for Athenry and Tuam think twice about this, his anti-tourism stance might (and I am only saying might) cost him his seat.

What would you say about numbers then?

i still say the same thing. over all the numbers and support for the greenway is quite small. people have bigger priorities such as protecting their public services. there are no "anti-tourism" tds and there is no "anti-tourism" stance by any of the local tds in the areas along the alinement.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

i still say the same thing. over all the numbers and support for the greenway is quite small. people have bigger priorities such as protecting their public services. there are no "anti-tourism" tds and there is no "anti-tourism" stance by any of the local tds in the areas along the alinement.

How many folks have marched to 'protect their public services'?, more or less than 600?

And indeed, what public services are you talking about? Surely an overgrown old railway alignment isn't regarded as such.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

i still say the same thing. over all the numbers and support for the greenway is quite small. people have bigger priorities such as protecting their public services. there are no "anti-tourism" tds and there is no "anti-tourism" stance by any of the local tds in the areas along the alinement.

It is the perception that one of the TDs is anti-tourism due to his stance on the closed railway becoming a tourism amenity that should be a concern for this particular TD.

For this he is increasingly becoming known as the Anti Greenway anti-tourism TD. Labels stick have a habit of sticking.

For a single issue, the numbers are actually quite large for a town and area of its size.

We can agree to differ on views, that's life. From a statistics point of view though getting 600 people onto the streets of Tuam to protest in favour of the Western Rail Trail greenway is huge, it shows motivation and support and for everyone on the streets there are probably another 20 who agree with them.

Numbers are powerful. As is the local media on local issues:

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/08/31/4145233-greenway-would-be-economic-lifeline/

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

It is the perception that one of the TDs is anti-tourism due to his stance on the closed railway becoming a tourism amenity that should be a concern for this particular TD.

For this he is increasingly becoming known as the Anti Greenway anti-tourism TD. Labels stick have a habit of sticking.

For a single issue, the numbers are actually quite large for a town and area of its size.

We can agree to differ on views, that's life. From a statistics point of view though getting 600 people onto the streets of Tuam to protest in favour of the Western Rail Trail greenway is huge, it shows motivation and support and for everyone on the streets there are probably another 20 who agree with them.

Numbers are powerful. As is the local media on local issues:

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/08/31/4145233-greenway-would-be-economic-lifeline/

600 people is a very significant number for any politician, national or local. Elections are won and lost on a lot less than that.

Hotblack Desiato

Grandeeod wrote: »

The motorway building programme ... While not as busy as they are built for

Within reason, and silly toll operator subsidy contracts aside, this is a good thing - future proofing. Unlike every single piece of transport infrastructure in the Greater Dublin Area which, when it's finally delivered, is decades late, cheap-outed upon (M50 non-freeflow junctions, 'short' red line Luas trams, etc.) and fails to meet the Day 1 demand.

How the hell the M17/18 got prioritised over the M20 is a mystery to me, but West of Ireland politics no doubt has a lot to do with it.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Ardrahan I would definitely flag for closure, could knock 3-4 minutes off the service if done right.

Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.

bk wrote: »

But rail is not dying!

Luas is rail

Trams, even calling them light rail is a bit grandiose for what they are, and in terms of capacity and speed they're grossly inadequate but they're all we have.

What the poster you are replying to surely meant is that heavy Irish gauge rail is dying.

What we are seeing is the dying of Victorian lines meandering through rural Ireland, where it just can't compete with roads and instead a refocusing on what rail does best at in the modern world, urban mass transit.

I spent a few days in Clifden last week - at the old Station House as it happens. Despite the obvious inadequacies of the N59 nobody is calling for the rail line to be reopened. Is it only post-war closures which are still in play? Or perhaps the facts that government subsidy was required for the construction of this line in an era when rail was a private venture, and even before the invention of the horseless carriage it couldn't wash its face might have injected some reality.

Incidentally going over the LC near Craughwell the rust on the WRC rails told its own story... I thought at first it was a closed line.

Consonata

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Within reason, and silly toll operator subsidy contracts aside, this is a good thing - future proofing. Unlike every single piece of transport infrastructure in the Greater Dublin Area which, when it's finally delivered, is decades late, cheap-outed upon (M50 non-freeflow junctions, 'short' red line Luas trams, etc.) and fails to meet the Day 1 demand.

How the hell the M17/18 got prioritised over the M20 is a mystery to me, but West of Ireland politics no doubt has a lot to do with it.



Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.



Trams, even calling them light rail is a bit grandiose for what they are, and in terms of capacity and speed they're grossly inadequate but they're all we have.

What the poster you are replying to surely meant is that heavy Irish gauge rail is dying.



I spent a few days in Clifden last week - at the old Station House as it happens. Despite the obvious inadequacies of the N59 nobody is calling for the rail line to be reopened. Is it only post-war closures which are still in play? Or perhaps the facts that government subsidy was required for the construction of this line in an era when rail was a private venture, and even before the invention of the horseless carriage it couldn't wash its face might have injected some reality.

Incidentally going over the LC near Craughwell the rust on the WRC rails told its own story... I thought at first it was a closed line.

If Heavy Rail was dying, you wouldn't still have profitable lines such as Cork,Sligo and Belfast.

WRC was a bad idea, implemented at a horrible time, but it is not indicative of how well rail is doing elsewhere.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How the hell the M17/18 got prioritised over the M20 is a mystery to me, but West of Ireland politics no doubt has a lot to do with it.

It wasn't prioritised, it was just closer to being ready to start. Nothing more or less to it than that. If the situation were reversed, we'd be sitting, waiting for the M17/18 to be built. They could afford to invest in one.

Now that the M17/18 is near done, the M20 project has started back up

Del.Monte

Consonata wrote: »

If Heavy Rail was dying, you wouldn't still have profitable lines such as Cork,Sligo and Belfast.

WRC was a bad idea, implemented at a horrible time, but it is not indicative of how well rail is doing elsewhere.

CorK, Sligo and Belfast lines are profitable ? Link please?

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

CorK, Sligo and Belfast lines are profitable ? Link please?

Busy, yes. Profitable? No, no matter what yardstick you use.
These lines are worth keeping though, connecting the capital to regional centres. It's the branch lines that have no future, and building more of them is simply not an option.

Isambard

if they were in control wouldn't they be doing something about the land-grabbers who have appropriated the track bed in several places.?