Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

eastwest

Claude Wilton wrote: »

What is the bigger point then? Keeping trains from running from Tuam to Galway, or putting a greenway over it? Those of us with long memories remember how the original WRC thread took a very long time to put its focus onto the greenway option.

There are no trains running from Tuam to Galway
There will be no trains running from Tuam to Galway, unless they run on the N17, because the government will not build a railway for them to run on, because there is no money for a railway from any source and because the case for a railway doesn't stack up.
What's there at the moment isn't a railway, it's a lot of rusty rails on rotten sleepers on inadequate ballast, minus a bridge or two. The owners are happy to see a greenway there because it protects the asset or them, as long as rail has first call on it in the future.
That's why the greenway option makes such sense. It can use the existing ballast with the blessing of the owners, and there is funding. The greenway keeps the route open in perpetuity in case somebody in the future finds money for a railway.
It's so simple that Sean Kyanney could understand it, if they tried a little harder.

Dargan Bridge

eastwest wrote: »

There are no trains running from Tuam to Galway
There will be no trains running from Tuam to Galway, unless they run on the N17, because the government will not build a railway for them to run on, because there is no money for a railway from any source and because the case for a railway doesn't stack up.
What's there at the moment isn't a railway, it's a lot of rusty rails on rotten sleepers on inadequate ballast, minus a bridge or two. The owners are happy to see a greenway there because it protects the asset or them, as long as rail has first call on it in the future.
That's why the greenway option makes such sense. It can use the existing ballast with the blessing of the owners, and there is funding. The greenway keeps the route open in perpetuity in case somebody in the future finds money for a railway.
It's so simple that Sean Kyanney could understand it, if they tried a little harder.

There are a lot of options out there but there is the small matter of the need to deal with population expansion over the next 40 years. If we do as you are suggesting the chances of any railway being restored on a Greenway are nil. Experience shows that Greenway supporters will fight tooth and nail to stop any transport system taking back control of a Greenway route. Look at Belfast and the Comber Greenway. Local Greenway campaigners ensured that Translink’s proposed BRT route now will run on the already congested Newtownards Road. That’s the proof that Greenways don’t Save railways, they bury them.

It might be worth taking a look at what is being achieved in Kiltimagh, the velo rail being constructed there has a great chance of pulling in tourists and at the same time keeping the track intact.

rebel456

Claude Wilton wrote: »

Keeping trains from running from Tuam to Galway, or putting a greenway over it?

Trains run from Tuam to Galway?

rebel456

Dargan Bridge wrote: »

It might be worth taking a look at what is being achieved in Kiltimagh, the velo rail being constructed there has a great chance of pulling in tourists and at the same time keeping the track intact.

So that's the point then, 'keeping the track intact'. As opposed to being open to other alternatives such as a Greenway running through Tuam drawing in tourists... an option with now significant support locally and politically. Let them build their VeloRail in the Northern section but that should not bar other options explored for the Tuam section given the almost O% chance of trains running.

Muckyboots

Dargan Bridge wrote: »

Experience shows that Greenway supporters will fight tooth and nail to stop any transport system taking back control of a Greenway route.

The line is given to local councils under licence. Teeth and nails have nothing to do with this. Perhaps the Velo rail operators will "fight tooth and nail" to retain their enormously successful tourism enterprise too? If you are going to debate, keep it honest and wash your hands of all the red herring throwing.

Claude Wilton

rebel456 wrote: »

Trains run from Tuam to Galway?

Please reread the original post.

For those too lazy to do so, I'll quote myself and add emphasis.

Keeping trains from running from Tuam to Galway

eastwest

Dargan Bridge wrote: »

There are a lot of options out there but there is the small matter of the need to deal with population expansion over the next 40 years. If we do as you are suggesting the chances of any railway being restored on a Greenway are nil. Experience shows that Greenway supporters will fight tooth and nail to stop any transport system taking back control of a Greenway route. Look at Belfast and the Comber Greenway. Local Greenway campaigners ensured that Translink’s proposed BRT route now will run on the already congested Newtownards Road. That’s the proof that Greenways don’t Save railways, they bury them.

It might be worth taking a look at what is being achieved in Kiltimagh, the velo rail being constructed there has a great chance of pulling in tourists and at the same time keeping the track intact.

The Kiltimagh velorail isn't keeping the track intact,the track it's using isn't fit for trains and will have to be replaced if a railway is ever built. It does keep the route in public ownership but a greenway would do the same job over the entire route, not just the bit at Kiltimagh.
In the next 40 years it is possible that a railway might be built on some of the wrc, that's why the greenway makes sense.
The Comber issue is a deliberate red herring that is put out by the anti tourism element of WOT, but it is simply a pack of lies -- don't fall for it. The agreement on the Comber route didn't protect it for rail use, unlike the watertight lease used by Irish Rail.

eastwest

Dargan Bridge wrote: »

The real point is stop the railway at all costs.

I've never met anyone who wanted to stop the railway; I certainly don't.
However I do recognise that the railway won't be built in the next few decades, so a greenway is the only option on the table. The only ones stopping anything are the people stopping the greenway.

Claude Wilton

eastwest wrote: »

anti tourism element of WOT

What? Explain.

westtip

Claude Wilton wrote: »

What is the bigger point then? Keeping trains from running from Tuam to Galway, or putting a greenway over it? Those of us with long memories remember how the original WRC thread took a very long time to put its focus onto the greenway option.

The bigger point is plain to see, the WRC can't happen without partial EU funding, just as no major transport infrastructure project, road or rail can happen without partial EU funding. As the WRC is excluded from EU funding the big point is there is actually no point debating whether it is going to happen, in some ways there is no point having a thread on a something that will not happen, but it is here because he debate goes on. The greenway option is defacto the only realistic option and really took over the public mindset and debate several years ago, the railway option only exists in the minds of a deluded few.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

The greenway option ... really took over the public mindset and debate several years ago

I would put this shift down to people actually seeing Greenways for themselves (Great Western and Deise) and asking why can't we have this here on our unused railway line?

eastwest

Claude Wilton wrote: »

What? Explain.

If it walks like a duck etc.

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

I would put this shift down to people actually seeing Greenways for themselves (Great Western and Deise) and asking why can't we have this here on our unused railway line?

My first post on this subject was about 3 years before the GWG was even muted! Mind you I did use the Tissington Trail in Derbyshire in the early 1970s!

westtip

westtip wrote: »

My first post on this subject was about 3 years before the GWG was even muted! Mind you I did use the Tissington Trail in Derbyshire in the early 1970s!

Just in case you are wondering, Tissington Trail was one of the first rail trails created in the UK on the closed rural rail line network, sometime in the 1970s, my family lived about 30 minutes drive from it, the word greenway hadn't even been created. It has been a tourist attraction now for over 40 years, plenty of You tube hits. The dry stone walls of Derbyshire are not dissimilar to East Galway, it has bought millions of tourist pounds into the area over the years, Ah well, who knows the idea may catch on, even in Ireland (so folks, Mayo county council did not invent the idea although they might have you think they did) ......Hey ho on we go....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSSmPECjOQ

westtip

good news for greenways in the budget yesterday this is from the DTTAS budget press release:

Speaking today Minister Ross said;

“This year, as part of the Capital Plan I am delighted to be in a position to be able to announce ambitious projects which include: a spend of over €100 million on vital local and national sports infrastructure, investment of over €30 million in the development of Greenways to bring tourism benefits to regional locations and the provision of infrastructure to support safe and sustainable commuting by cycling or walking in urban areas to a value of €80 million over the period.”

Not a mention of other capital projects in this press release unfortunately, they might be covered today in another announcement

Both Ministers will outline in further detail the allocation of these funds and the increases across the Capital Plan out to 2021 in a dedicated public address on Wednesday 11 October.

At least Galway county councillors will know they made sure none of the £30 million there for greenways will be spent on the closed railway, that must be reassuring for them to have turned their noses up on this spend in the full knowledge the railway will not be built!

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2017/ministers-welcome-12-increase-dttas-budget-2018

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

good news for greenways in the budget yesterday this is from the DTTAS budget press release:



Not a mention of other capital projects in this press release unfortunately, they might be covered today in another announcement



At least Galway county councillors will know they made sure none of the £30 million there for greenways will be spent on the closed railway, that must be reassuring for them to have turned their noses up on this spend in the full knowledge the railway will not be built!

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2017/ministers-welcome-12-increase-dttas-budget-2018

Galway county councillors are just naive puppets of a tiny rail lobby that has effectively become a vitriolic anti tourism campaign. They abandoned their quest for empty passenger trains and became a freight lobby, but a WDC report showed that this was a load of nonsense too.
In a classic case of 'our way or no way' they have concentrated their attention on blocking greenways. Even north of Claremorris, where wot have long conceded to rail is unlikely, they have fought and continue to fight to block the sligo greenway.
Galway councillors will eventually begin to question this ill informed logic and the greenway will be built, long after more enlightened places have profited from the available funds.

jasper100

westtip wrote: »

good news for greenways in the budget yesterday this is from the DTTAS budget press release:



Not a mention of other capital projects in this press release unfortunately, they might be covered today in another announcement



At least Galway county councillors will know they made sure none of the £30 million there for greenways will be spent on the closed railway, that must be reassuring for them to have turned their noses up on this spend in the full knowledge the railway will not be built!

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2017/ministers-welcome-12-increase-dttas-budget-2018

If I was in Galway the greenway I would be focused on is a route from the city along the banks of the Corrib out to Clifden along that old railway line. Not somewhere that tourists have no interest in.

MayoForSam

jasper100 wrote: »

If I was in Galway the greenway I would be focused on is a route from the city along the banks of the Corrib out to Clifden along that old railway line. Not somewhere that tourists have no interest in.

And how about the local residents of places like Athenry, Tuam and Milltown who are crying out for a safe walking/cycling amenity for all the family to use? It might even tempt a few of the townies out into the local (and quite picturesque believe it or not) countryside. The tourists (who would almost definitely follow) would be a bonus.

hytrogen

MayoForSam wrote:

And how about the local residents of places like Athenry, Tuam and Milltown who are crying out for a safe walking/cycling amenity for all the family to use? It might even tempt a few of the townies out into the local (and quite picturesque believe it or not) countryside. The tourists (who would almost definitely follow) would be a bonus.

Probably now recognised as too septic and volitile an area to go near politically. I'd say f people eased their opinions and venom spitting there would be better progress made by now...

eastwest

jasper100 wrote: »

If I was in Galway the greenway I would be focused on is a route from the city along the banks of the Corrib out to Clifden along that old railway line. Not somewhere that tourists have no interest in.

That's pretty much what the nine blocking councillors were saying in waterford before the weight of common sense won the day.
They also used the 'rural crime' argument, you really should have thrown that in too.

eastwest

No mention of the wrc in this announcement that looks forward to 2027.
I suppose he just forgot to mention it.
http://m.independent.ie/business/budget/major-boost-for-dublin-as-construction-work-on-metro-north-to-get-underway-in-2021-36218162.html

TCDStudent1

eastwest wrote: »

That's pretty much what the nine blocking councillors were saying in waterford before the weight of common sense won the day.
They also used the 'rural crime' argument, you really should have thrown that in too.

Whats the rural crime argument?

eastwest

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Whats the rural crime argument?

A standard piece of scaremongering used by anti greenway groups everywhere, that greenways bring an increase in rural crime.
Not true, obviously, but people believe it.

TCDStudent1

eastwest wrote: »

A standard piece of scaremongering used by anti greenway groups everywhere, that greenways bring an increase in rural crime.
Not true, obviously, but people believe it.

I still dont get it. What is their logic of suggesting this? A greenway doesnt exactly offer a quicker get away than a normal road!

westtip

jasper100 wrote: »

If I was in Galway the greenway I would be focused on is a route from the city along the banks of the Corrib out to Clifden along that old railway line. Not somewhere that tourists have no interest in.

It's not about grand scenery around every corner, but the contribution to the long distance network a greenway from Athenry to Sligo will offer, in any event many tourists would find the simplicity of cycling through unspoilt countryside quite attractive, remember along these closed rail routes you are not cycling along a rural road of bungalow blitz ribbon development scenery. Of course then there is the simple issue that Corrib to Clifden closed railway route was closed and lost in the main because it was abandoned by Irish Rail, whereas Athenry to Sligo is owned by Irish Rail and they are fully supportive of greenways on closed railways to prevent what happened to the Clifden line. Mind you the idea of the clifden Greenway is a sound one and gets full support from the Western Rail Trail campaign, the two projects are complimentary.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

No mention of the wrc in this announcement that looks forward to 2027.
I suppose he just forgot to mention it.
http://m.independent.ie/business/budget/major-boost-for-dublin-as-construction-work-on-metro-north-to-get-underway-in-2021-36218162.html

Did you expect one! (mention of the WRC that is!)

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Did you expect one! (mention of the WRC that is!)

Are you suggesting that Sean Canney has it wrong?

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

That's pretty much what the nine blocking councillors were saying in waterford before the weight of common sense won the day.

maybe 1 or 2 but not most. the mallow to waterford line is rather a sceenic route. the wrc isn't.

eastwest wrote: »

They also used the 'rural crime' argument, you really should have thrown that in too.

the rural crime argument isn't an argument that can be simply dismissed. a greenway can be a perfect opportunity for criminals to commit crime on nearby farmers and other residents and then get away quite easily. now it's not a reason that greenways should never happen, but the argument is valid and it cannot and should not be dismissed.

westtip wrote: »

Of course then there is the simple issue that Corrib to Clifden closed railway route was closed and lost in the main because it was abandoned by Irish Rail

the line closed in 1937 i believe. so long before CIE and very long before irish rail. i believe the original company abandoned it rather then CIE but i'm open to correction.

westtip wrote: »

Athenry to Sligo is owned by Irish Rail and they are fully supportive of greenways on closed railways to prevent what happened to the Clifden line.

i find it hard to believe irish rail's reason for supporting greenways is to do with not wanting rail routes to be lost, given their treatment of much of the open network.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

maybe 1 or 2 but not most. the mallow to waterford line is rather a sceenic route. the wrc isn't.



the rural crime argument isn't an argument that can be simply dismissed. a greenway can be a perfect opportunity for criminals to commit crime on nearby farmers and other residents and then get away quite easily. now it's not a reason that greenways should never happen, but the argument is valid and it cannot and should not be dismissed.

.

I'm amused at the often repeated wot assertion that there is 'no scenery' along the western rail trail. This myth originated from people who have a naive view of what constitutes 'scenery' --- usually mountains and the sea with a few lakes thrown in.
On truth, most people derive pleasure from a view of unspoiled countryside, wild bogland, forests, streams and meadows, with the absence of ugly ribbon development that is seen along main roads. The 'no scenery' people need to get out of their cars more and open their eyes.
As for rural crime, most reasonable people would agree that it is usually car based, so your concerns would be better addressed to the councils and the NRA ..

eastwest

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I still dont get it. What is their logic of suggesting this? A greenway doesnt exactly offer a quicker get away than a normal road!

It doesn't have to have logic, as long as it gets people worried enough to oppose greenways.