Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

the point of that is that the buses became more competitive than a rail link ever could be on opening of that motorway. The cure to traffic problems is not opening a second rate rail link (as is the southern section which cost €103 million). The cure is to get as many drivers out of their cars and on to cheap frequent buses, running to diverse destinations around the City

and that isn't going to happen, because car will always be the best form of road transport compared to cheap frequent busses. if you want to get people out of the cars, a rail-based solution will be the only show in town. whether it is viable for galway or not i don't know, but wasting money on busses won't be the answer, as they are unlikely to attract people out of their car compared to something rail-based.

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Interesting observation. Weren’t the council promoting a greenway from Claremorris to Ballinrobe?

As an aside, this letter from one of the prominent greenway campaigners to the Irish Times two years ago hasn’t worn particularly well, given the lack of cure to traffic issues by the motorway.

To be fair to the author of that Times letter, the Tuam bypass motorway has made a huge difference to traffic flows; the claregalway bottleneck is now a thing of the past.
The traffic around Galway was never going to be addressed by the M17; that problem relates to the delay in building the Galway bypass.

marno21

For people going long distance up the west coast, the Claregalway bottleneck is gone. They won't be using a 3 hour train to travel what is 120km by road

For Galway commuters, no rail line is going to solve the issue which is the vast volume of people commuting from low density areas to places on the outskirts of Galway. How many people will get a Tuam-Athenry-Galway train and then a bus out to Parkmore/Ballybrit? A park and ride near Rathmorrissey would be more effective and make use of the M17. 15 minute drive to Rathmorrissey and bus in.

The Tuam-Athenry line is a solution looking for a problem unless we have €100m to burn on wasteful "infrastructure" or tourist attractions for trainspotters.

We can revisit this when someone decides to densify Galway city centre so that people can actually get to their place of work from the train station. Exact same situation at present in Limerikc

end of the road

if they are not going to ditch their car for a rail service, they definitely aren't going to do it for a park and ride to a bus.
if road transport is the only option for galway then the car will be the winner.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

For people going long distance up the west coast, the Claregalway bottleneck is gone. They won't be using a 3 hour train to travel what is 120km by road

For Galway commuters, no rail line is going to solve the issue which is the vast volume of people commuting from low density areas to places on the outskirts of Galway. How many people will get a Tuam-Athenry-Galway train and then a bus out to Parkmore/Ballybrit? A park and ride near Rathmorrissey would be more effective and make use of the M17. 15 minute drive to Rathmorrissey and bus in.

The Tuam-Athenry line is a solution looking for a problem unless we have €100m to burn on wasteful "infrastructure" or tourist attractions for trainspotters.

We can revisit this when someone decides to densify Galway city centre so that people can actually get to their place of work from the train station. Exact same situation at present in Limerikc

But they have the DART and the LUAS in Dublin!

Hugh Jampton

eastwest wrote: »

To be fair to the author of that Times letter, the Tuam bypass motorway has made a huge difference to traffic flows; the claregalway bottleneck is now a thing of the past.
The traffic around Galway was never going to be addressed by the M17; that problem relates to the delay in building the Galway bypass.

So first the M17,then the Galway Bypass. Given that commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway will there be a third tarmac project to solve the problems that were or are supposed to be cured by the first two?

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So first the M17,then the Galway Bypass. Given that commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway will there be a third tarmac project to solve the problems that were or are supposed to be cured by the first two?

They should run a train to every building in every estate, that would fix it and keep the rail lobby happy as well.
Maybe a DART from Tuam to athenry, a train to ceannt, and a luas to Ballybrit and the regional. That would even up.the score with the jackeens.

eastwest

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So first the M17,then the Galway Bypass. Given that commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway will there be a third tarmac project to solve the problems that were or are supposed to be cured by the first two?

They should run a train to every building in every estate, that would fix it and keep the rail lobby happy as well.
Maybe a DART from Tuam to athenry, a train to ceannt, and a luas to Ballybrit and the regional. That would even up.the score with the jackeens.

serfboard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway

Yes indeed it is. So tell us - how is a slow train service serving a massively dispersed population going to help with this?

Hugh Jampton

serfboard wrote: »

Yes indeed it is. So tell us - how is a slow train service serving a massively dispersed population going to help with this?

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Isambard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

the notion that it would be a slow roundabout service comes from the way that the southern section was rebuilt.
I'm at a loss to understand who you think would need a fast frequent service. Tuam is a very small place with not much likelihood of filling one train never mind a frequent service.

end of the road

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

this is the fundamental issue. we have to grow our cities. to do that, we have to start somewhere. that means building infrastructure, rail infrastructure of some sort, and then building and working around that. yes the infrastructure may be lowly used at first, but if it's there, there is more chance of us being able to grow around it. we will have a blueprint.
the reality is, while we all use roads and they are necessary, we cannot just keep pumping money into more and more of them to try and fail to reduce congestion issues in our cities. it's not going to work. no country that i can find has successfully reduced it's congestion problem by building more and more roads. if we are spending money on roads, spend it on new areas that need good roads, rather then spending more on the same areas, for the problems to continue.
if the m17 isn't going to reduce congestion, and then the galway by-pass isn't going to reduce congestion, then it seems reasonable to suggest that more road construction isn't going to do it either.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

this is the fundamental issue. we have to grow our cities. to do that, we have to start somewhere. that means building infrastructure, rail infrastructure of some sort, and then building and working around that. yes the infrastructure may be lowly used at first, but if it's there, there is more chance of us being able to grow around it. we will have a blueprint.
the reality is, while we all use roads and they are necessary, we cannot just keep pumping money into more and more of them to try and fail to reduce congestion issues in our cities. it's not going to work. no country that i can find has successfully reduced it's congestion problem by building more and more roads. if we are spending money on roads, spend it on new areas that need good roads, rather then spending more on the same areas, for the problems to continue.
if the m17 isn't going to reduce congestion, and then the galway by-pass isn't going to reduce congestion, then it seems reasonable to suggest that more road construction isn't going to do it either.

I agree, more/better roads simply attract more cars. However trains in rural Galway are not the answer. Effective park and ride luring drivers out of their cars into public transport and tolling the City Centre might be the answer.

rebel456

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would be one building block for a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward. Otherwise Galway’s hinterland replicates that of Dublin, but with none of the efficiency. You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Why do we have to be creating dormer towns just to make use of an old meandering train line?

Why not build up the density of Galway, make it a proper city, instead of wasting another €100m or so hoping a few folks a day will hop on the indirect train spend that money on a BRT system for Galway City. The higher the density, the greater the population, the more pull Galway has to attract larger companies thus more people.

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

The West on Track campaign has all but given up on passenger services, currently trying and failing to make the case for freight. A rebuild will be another WRC Phase 1 job - lay track on old route, change as little as possible, spend as little as possible, just to claim the line reopened.

serfboard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Running fast and frequent commuter rail services from Tuam to Athenry, Oranmore and Galway

If I want to go from Athenry to Galway tomorrow, there are 17 services, so tick that box for frequency.

There are only two before nine o clock, though.

The time taken varies between 17 minutes and 27 minutes, so not too bad on speed.

There are 13 services from Oranmore, with journey times between 7 and 11 minutes.

Given that you mention Tuam, would your service from Tuam stop at Ballyglunin (and if not get ready for a local backlash)? How long would it take from Tuam to Galway, including a stop at the station in Ballyglunin?

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

a fundamental rethink on land use and planning issues. Planning density that takes advantage of the existing neglected infrastructure and moving away from one house to an acre planning is the way forward.

Which is fine if you're proposing this as a model for Germany or Sweden or some other well-planned country. This is Ireland, and not only has the horse already bolted on that one, but your proposal would receive zero political support. It's all very well telling people what's best for them, but when they elect almost any non-Dublin politician you care to mention, their vote will reflect the fact that one-off housing in the country is what people want.

I know you don't agree with it. Either do I. But it's already happened and will keep happening and will ultimately doom any WRC north of Athenry to failure should it ever be built (which it won't).

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

You can throw all the cars and tarmac you like at the west but it will never be enough otherwise

Of course this is true, but in fact, there are no longer any major traffic problems in County Galway bar what happens in and around Galway City. (To the extent that Claregalway might still be a problem, this is because people tried the motorway, and then went back to using the old road because of the massive jams at Doughiska).

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Nobody is advocating one, just reflecting reality. The Limerick->Galway train takes two hours - the X51 bus takes an hour and 15 minutes. And without the big Intercity populations using it, the Ennis->Athenry line has been a failure. Numbers which include Athenry->Galway and Ennis->Limerick simply don't count because these lines existed before over 100 million Euros was spent.

So what's my solution? Bus Park n Ride mostly and especialy for the industrial estates of Galway. I would maintain the existing Train Park n Ride @ Oranmore (which is excellent) for the city centre.

And again I ask you the question - given that, as you said, "commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway", and given that we have a dispersed population, how is rail going to solve the problem?

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not sure who is advocating a slow train service anywhere.

Okay. Start a campaign to double track Athenry to Galway. Run a frequent Park & Ride shuttle service on the line. People could use the new M17 to access it from a wide area. Give up your auld fooling on the rest of the bendy bit until this is shown to be a success. We'll mind it for you in the meantime with a Greenway. See - not anti rail at all.

Del.Monte

Just saw this for sale over on Adverts - get in there first before westtip

https://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/back-on-track-ennis-athenry-railway/14434615

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just saw this for sale over on Adverts - get in there first before westtip

https://www.adverts.ie/other-antiques-collectables/back-on-track-ennis-athenry-railway/14434615

How much does it cost? Over 100 million Euro?

end of the road

serfboard wrote: »

So what's my solution? Bus Park n Ride mostly and especialy for the industrial estates of Galway.

for a bus park and ride to be effective, painted bus lanes aren't really going to cut it, it needs dedicated infrastructure, for which you may as well just get on and build a small light rail system.

Muckyboots wrote: »

Okay. Start a campaign to double track Athenry to Galway. Run a frequent Park & Ride shuttle service on the line. People could use the new M17 to access it from a wide area. Give up your auld fooling on the rest of the bendy bit until this is shown to be a success. We'll mind it for you in the meantime with a Greenway. See - not anti rail at all.

you won't be minding it, but keeping it. it's well known that we will never get it back once it's given over to a greenway.

Hugh Jampton

end of the road wrote: »

you won't be minding it, but keeping it. it's well known that we will never get it back once it's given over to a greenway.

Indeed. Wesley Johnston of the NI Roads blog, reviewing the debacle of the Comber Greenway preventing the reuse of the Belfast and County Down Railway for the Belfast BRT scheme says

Indeed. DFI [the North’s Department for Infrastructure] have learned their lesson. Never again will they give permission for land reserved for a future scheme to be used “in the meantime”.

So, nice try but No Dice.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

for a bus park and ride to be effective, painted bus lanes aren't really going to cut it, it needs dedicated infrastructure, for which you may as well just get on and build a small light rail system.

Brilliant Idea! More Light-Rail and less Meandering-Through-The-Countryside-Rail.

Hugh Jampton

serfboard wrote: »

If I want to go from Athenry to Galway tomorrow, there are 17 services, so tick that box for frequency.

There are only two before nine o clock, though.

The time taken varies between 17 minutes and 27 minutes, so not too bad on speed.

There are 13 services from Oranmore, with journey times between 7 and 11 minutes.

Given that you mention Tuam, would your service from Tuam stop at Ballyglunin (and if not get ready for a local backlash)? How long would it take from Tuam to Galway, including a stop at the station in Ballyglunin?

Which is fine if you're proposing this as a model for Germany or Sweden or some other well-planned country. This is Ireland, and not only has the horse already bolted on that one, but your proposal would receive zero political support. It's all very well telling people what's best for them, but when they elect almost any non-Dublin politician you care to mention, their vote will reflect the fact that one-off housing in the country is what people want.

I know you don't agree with it. Either do I. But it's already happened and will keep happening and will ultimately doom any WRC north of Athenry to failure should it ever be built (which it won't).

Of course this is true, but in fact, there are no longer any major traffic problems in County Galway bar what happens in and around Galway City. (To the extent that Claregalway might still be a problem, this is because people tried the motorway, and then went back to using the old road because of the massive jams at Doughiska).

Nobody is advocating one, just reflecting reality. The Limerick->Galway train takes two hours - the X51 bus takes an hour and 15 minutes. And without the big Intercity populations using it, the Ennis->Athenry line has been a failure. Numbers which include Athenry->Galway and Ennis->Limerick simply don't count because these lines existed before over 100 million Euros was spent.

So what's my solution? Bus Park n Ride mostly and especialy for the industrial estates of Galway. I would maintain the existing Train Park n Ride @ Oranmore (which is excellent) for the city centre.

And again I ask you the question - given that, as you said, "commuter traffic is going to estates in Galway", and given that we have a dispersed population, how is rail going to solve the problem?

Again, I refer you to the point that tackling land use and planning in the West is essential to solving the bigger problem of dispersed, sprawled development and the resultant traffic chaos in Galway.

Isambard

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Again, I refer you to the point that tackling land use and planning in the West is essential to solving the bigger problem of dispersed, sprawled development and the resultant traffic chaos in Galway.

A lightly used rail line from one point to the City is not the solution. A point or points on the fringe of the City where commuters from all points and directions can park up and use Public Transport is the way forward.

end of the road

rebel456 wrote: »

less Meandering-Through-The-Countryside-Rail.

all that went in the 1950s and 60s, so this part of your post isn't valid.

rebel456

end of the road wrote: »

all that went in the 1950s and 60s, so this part of your post isn't valid.

Then why do you wish to re-open such a line up along the West Coast?

Should note we also have the WRC Phase 1 and Limerick-Ballybrophy in existence. Both fit the meandering definition quite well.

devnull

Just a reminder all to attack the post and not the poster - There's been enough warnings in this thread.

If you have a problem with a post please report it.

- Moderator

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Indeed. Wesley Johnston of the NI Roads blog, reviewing the debacle of the Comber Greenway preventing the reuse of the Belfast and County Down Railway for the Belfast BRT scheme says

So, nice try but No Dice.

This is simply not true. Sustrans NI may have expressed issues with the Comber as a dedicated bus lane (never a reinstatement of rail) but it was Stormont that voted this idea down on economic grounds. I could post you a dozen links, but you'll find them easily with a bit of googling.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

This is simply not true. Sustrans NI may have expressed issues with the Comber as a dedicated bus lane (never a reinstatement of rail) but it was Stormont that voted this idea down on economic grounds. I could post you a dozen links, but you'll find them easily with a bit of googling.

The Comber issue is trotted out by West on track as a reason to oppose tourism projects in the west, but it is entirely irrelevant to the situation here. Apart from the bus route issue you mentioned, there is another fact that wot conveniently ignores. The access agreements under which Irish Rail allows the building of greenways on closed lines keeps railway use as paramount, unlike the situation in Comber.
Irish Rail's official position on the Athenry to Collooney route is that the alignment 'is required for future rail use'. However unlikely any such rail development might be, Irish Rail is wisely keeping these routes safe by the best possible method--allowing their use as greenways.

Muckyboots

end of the road wrote: »

you won't be minding it, but keeping it.

We won't be minding it. The local authority will though.

end of the road wrote: »

it's well known that we will never get it back once it's given over to a greenway.

Who exactly are the "we"? CIE property you mean, surely. Remember it doesn't leave public ownership when it's converted to a greenway.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

We won't be minding it. The local authority will though.



Who exactly are the "we"? CIE property you mean, surely. Remember it doesn't leave public ownership when it's converted to a greenway.

I think they don't get that.
There appears to be a view among the rail lobby that a handful of cyclists want to run a private operation using state-owned lands, which couldn't be further from the truth.
Which makes the west on track support for the Kiltimagh velorail project all the more bizarre. In that instance, a private company is being given a lease on a section of the line for ten years, effectively preventing the building of a railway during that time. This project also raises concerns that a private company may be entitled to renew that lease on an ongoing basis, having established their business on the line. Unlike a local authority who would be obliged to relinquish the property if a railway was an option, a private company could arguably dig in forever if they wanted to.
The logic of this, in so far as there is any logic in their position, is that wot has conceded that the railway north of Tuam or maybe Claremorris will never be built, but that they are so opposed to cycling and walking tourism that they are prepared to give away state assets before they will concede to the greenway lobby.