Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Wagon360

Wagon360 wrote: »

There is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

Nobody that I know of is in anyway anti-tourism. That is a ridiculous statement to make. At the risk of repeating myself there is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

Muckyboots

Wagon360 wrote: »

Nobody that I know of is in anyway anti-tourism. That is a ridiculous statement to make. At the risk of repeating myself there is no such organisation as SF/WOT.

People "you know" are not anti-tourism - so what? Actions by WOT supporters are denying the people of south Mayo and east Galway a share of the tourism market. That's a fact
Businesses and communities all along WRC are the real losers, including Kiltimagh who are being sold a €300k pig in a poke for the sake of useless optics. At last the decision about what is best for the WRC is being discussed by its owners, TD's and Ministers and most importantly by the sensible majority in each of the population centres along the route. Certain people may have had to ruffle a few feathers and burst a few bubbles along the way, but they are what they are, some people need to grow a pair. Well paid execs and PA's know how to use an office shredder and how to press the delete button on their keyboards. Move on and fight against inaction. WOTs should stop focussing on the poster boys of what they perceive "the opposition". It's quite childish and definitely useless.

Hugh Jampton

Muckyboots wrote: »

People "you know" are not anti-tourism - so what? Actions by WOT supporters are denying the people of south Mayo and east Galway a share of the tourism market. That's a fact
Businesses and communities all along WRC are the real losers, including Kiltimagh who are being sold a €300k pig in a poke for the sake of useless optics. At last the decision about what is best for the WRC is being discussed by its owners, TD's and Ministers and most importantly by the sensible majority in each of the population centres along the route. Certain people may have had to ruffle a few feathers and burst a few bubbles along the way, but they are what they are, some people need to grow a pair. Well paid execs and PA's know how to use an office shredder and how to press the delete button on their keyboards. Move on and fight against inaction. WOTs should stop focussing on the poster boys of what they perceive "the opposition". It's quite childish and definitely useless.

Indeed. Saying nothing about our points of view would be the epitome of inaction. I fully agree we should all grow a pair and be grown up enough about criticism in the world outside the internet without wanting to squash alternative points of view by the back door.

Wagon360

Muckyboots wrote: »

People "you know" are not anti-tourism - so what? Actions by WOT supporters are denying the people of south Mayo and east Galway a share of the tourism market. That's a fact
Businesses and communities all along WRC are the real losers, including Kiltimagh who are being sold a €300k pig in a poke for the sake of useless optics. At last the decision about what is best for the WRC is being discussed by its owners, TD's and Ministers and most importantly by the sensible majority in each of the population centres along the route. Certain people may have had to ruffle a few feathers and burst a few bubbles along the way, but they are what they are, some people need to grow a pair. Well paid execs and PA's know how to use an office shredder and how to press the delete button on their keyboards. Move on and fight against inaction. WOTs should stop focussing on the poster boys of what they perceive "the opposition". It's quite childish and definitely useless.

Who here is WOT? I’m not a member, just an interested bystander. I’ll tell you what is childish, it’s inventing fake names for organisations and making ridiculous claims that people are anti tourism.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

People "you know" are not anti-tourism - so what? Actions by WOT supporters are denying the people of south Mayo and east Galway a share of the tourism market. That's a fact
Businesses and communities all along WRC are the real losers, including Kiltimagh who are being sold a €300k pig in a poke for the sake of useless optics. At last the decision about what is best for the WRC is being discussed by its owners, TD's and Ministers and most importantly by the sensible majority in each of the population centres along the route. Certain people may have had to ruffle a few feathers and burst a few bubbles along the way, but they are what they are, some people need to grow a pair. Well paid execs and PA's know how to use an office shredder and how to press the delete button on their keyboards. Move on and fight against inaction. WOTs should stop focussing on the poster boys of what they perceive "the opposition". It's quite childish and definitely useless.

If it walks like a duck, etc...
Members and supporters of WOT are largely well-intentioned, but their failure to recognise realities in recent years makes them de-facto anti-tourism; that is a fact.
The reality is that there won't be a train on this route for decades, if ever. This reality is all there to be seen in the rail review that is sitting on the Minister's desk, but that won't be released because it doesn't suit the personal political ambitions of a number of politicians.
I don't blame the ordinary supporters of WOT for this debacle, they are being fed a load of nonsense by a few manipulators who won't tell them the truth, that the trains ain't coming.
So, they might not intentionally be anti-tourism, but that is the end result of their actions.

Wagon360

eastwest wrote: »

If it walks like a duck, etc...
Members and supporters of WOT are largely well-intentioned, but their failure to recognise realities in recent years makes them de-facto anti-tourism; that is a fact.
The reality is that there won't be a train on this route for decades, if ever. This reality is all there to be seen in the rail review that is sitting on the Minister's desk, but that won't be released because it doesn't suit the personal political ambitions of a number of politicians.
I don't blame the ordinary supporters of WOT for this debacle, they are being fed a load of nonsense by a few manipulators who won't tell them the truth, that the trains ain't coming.
So, they might not intentionally be anti-tourism, but that is the end result of their actions.

You are entitled (as we all are) to your opinions but to present your opinion as fact is incorrect. And who are the manipulators you speak of? It could be argued that the constant drip drip of anti rail sentiment and vilification of individuals here on this thread is manipulation too.

eastwest

Wagon360 wrote: »

You are entitled (as we all are) to your opinions but to present your opinion as fact is incorrect. And who are the manipulators you speak of? It could be argued that the constant drip drip of anti rail sentiment and vilification of individuals here on this thread is manipulation too.

There are a few politicians who help perpetuate the railway myth for purely electoral reasons, even though they know the facts. One in particular has been known to describe wot as 'mad' while cosying up to them publicly.

Hugh Jampton

eastwest wrote: »

There are a few politicians who help perpetuate the railway myth for purely electoral reasons, even though they know the facts. One on particular has been known to describe wot as 'mad' while cosying up to them publicly.

Who?

Wagon360

eastwest wrote: »

There are a few politicians who help perpetuate the railway myth for purely electoral reasons, even though they know the facts. One on particular has been known to describe wot as 'mad' while cosying up to them publicly.

Funny enough I had an unrelated meeting with a senior politician a while back who described two of the Greenway campaigners as “the bully and the sleeveen”. A terrible thing to say - so I personally would not trust the word of politicians! Anyone who does so is a fool.

I see WOT are on their annual pilgrimage to this thread again

Sorry lads, nothing against the trains, have used them in the past, but there is no hope of a train on this line..... Ever.

1. The demand just isn't there, no matter what way you want to dress up that demand, human or freight

2. By the time demand is there, this alignment will be considered so ****e as to not be worth using and a new alignment will be drawn

Hugh Jampton

Deleted User wrote: »

I see WOT are on their annual pilgrimage to this thread again

Sorry lads, nothing against the trains, have used them in the past, but there is no hope of a train on this line..... Ever.

1. The demand just isn't there, no matter what way you want to dress up that demand, human or freight

2. By the time demand is there, this alignment will be considered so ****e as to not be worth using and a new alignment will be drawn

I’m not a member of West on Track. Your statement is, therefore, factually incorrect.

Wagon360

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see WOT are on their annual pilgrimage to this thread again

Sorry lads, nothing against the trains, have used them in the past, but there is no hope of a train on this line..... Ever.

1. The demand just isn't there, no matter what way you want to dress up that demand, human or freight

2. By the time demand is there, this alignment will be considered so ****e as to not be worth using and a new alignment will be drawn

I’m not a member of anything. As I said earlier. Your desire to “expose” anyone who does not conform to the groupthink on this thread does not help your argument.

Hugh Jampton

westtip wrote: »

Thought you were in the know. I guess Eastwest would say the same; go fish.

I’m not ‘in the know’. As I said, I’m an interested observer, not a player.

Well, you know the saying, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

Anyway, moving on. Please identify the business case for rail transport along this alignment. As far as anyone can see, WOT included, there is none.

eastwest

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, you know the saying, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

Anyway, moving on. Please identify the business case for rail transport along this alignment. As far as anyone can see, WOT included, there is none.

And there never was.
The rationale for opening Ennis Athenry was dubious, to say the least.
As Varadkar said, it was a mistake that won't be repeated.

Del.Monte

eastwest wrote: »

And there never was.
The rationale for opening Ennis Athenry was dubious, to say the least.
As Varadkar said, it was a mistake that won't be repeated.

And Varadkar is such a transport expert. Anyway he'll be gone soon enough.

Grandeeod

Any chance of a bit of Christmas cheer? You all seem so angry.:D

eastwest

Grandeeod wrote: »

Any chance of a bit of Christmas cheer? You all seem so angry.:D

Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle down the lane
You could freeze your pollocks off, waiting for a train

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

And Varadkar is such a transport expert. Anyway he'll be gone soon enough.

Hate to break the bad news, but "Plan B" thinks the cycleway on the WRC is also the way to go. You'll need to instigate an FF heave led by "Young Dev" followed by a shinner government alliance to have any chance of stopping the inevitable.

Del.Monte

What about a belt of the old crozier to knock the politicians into line? I bet Fr. Micheál MacGréil is working on a papal visit to the WRC when Pope Francis drops in next year.

monument

I’m drawing everybody’s attention to this:

devnull wrote: »

Final Warning.

Keep on the topic at hand rather than focusing on each other.

Bans will follow for those who do not tow the line and they will not be short ones.

- Moderator

...and I’m still thinking of a few 24 hour bans to make it clearer to BOTH sides this thread isn’t about you or who you are or who other posters are! Replying is nearly just as bad as the original offending posts!

Deleted User wrote: »

I see WOT are on their annual pilgrimage to this thread again

Sorry lads, nothing against the trains, have used them in the past, but there is no hope of a train on this line..... Ever.

1. The demand just isn't there, no matter what way you want to dress up that demand, human or freight

2. By the time demand is there, this alignment will be considered so ****e as to not be worth using and a new alignment will be drawn

Play the ball and not the man.

— moderator

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I’m not a member of West on Track. Your statement is, therefore, factually incorrect.

Your membership etc is not on topic— the poster wasn’t using any name but you can still use the report a post feature.

— moderator

Wagon360 wrote: »

I’m not a member of anything. As I said earlier. Your desire to “expose” anyone who does not conform to the groupthink on this thread does not help your argument.

Same as above.

— moderator

Hugh Jampton

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, you know the saying, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

Anyway, moving on. Please identify the business case for rail transport along this alignment. As far as anyone can see, WOT included, there is none.

I didn’t know that I had to provide a consultancy report in order to post a contrary opinion here. Have a look at my earlier posts. My points are there.

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

I didn’t know that I had to provide a consultancy report in order to post a contrary opinion here. Have a look at my earlier posts. My points are there.

You don't. But you do need to make reasoned arguments. The WRC and the towns on its route have become the victim of political grand standing and self-interested lobbying from niche groups for nearly 50 years. It's obvious from the movement in towns like Tuam and Tubbercurry that people are sick of promises, especially nonsensical ones from certain nostalgic minded sections of the rail lobby.

Wagon360

There's nothing "nostalgic" about wanting balanced regional development, getting Ireland ready for population expansion over the next 40 years and to avoid any possible fines from the EU for missing climate change targets. These are the reasons people campaign for rail connections. Those climate change fines will dwarf any costs involved in getting rail connections restored.

Muckyboots

Wagon360 wrote: »

There's nothing "nostalgic" about wanting balanced regional development, getting Ireland ready for population expansion over the next 40 years and to avoid any possible fines from the EU for missing climate change targets. These are the reasons people campaign for rail connections. Those climate change fines will dwarf any costs involved in getting rail connections restored.

Won't argue against balanced regional development but it needs some context. A commuter service for Mayo to Galway? Are there numbers to justify this? High speed Derry to Kerry ? Not a runner and definitely not suitable for the old WRC alignment. Biomass carts from Foynes to Killala or a new digester plant in Tuam? Someone better start painting a picture here for people living along the line.

marno21

Wagon360 wrote: »

There's nothing "nostalgic" about wanting balanced regional development, getting Ireland ready for population expansion over the next 40 years and to avoid any possible fines from the EU for missing climate change targets. These are the reasons people campaign for rail connections. Those climate change fines will dwarf any costs involved in getting rail connections restored.

Spoken like a grade A rail nostalgist.

This is a brilliant mentality from the 1930s. A slow moving train through very low density countryside does nothing for Ireland's climate change targets and will not be conducive to population expansion.

No matter how much you believe it. The world has moved on. It's time for you to do the same.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

Spoken like a grade A rail nostalgist.

This is a brilliant mentality from the 1930s. A slow moving train through very low density countryside does nothing for Ireland's climate change targets and will not be conducive to population expansion.

No matter how much you believe it. The world has moved on. It's time for you to do the same.

the world has not moved on from a good rail network. there is nothing to move on from. a good rail network is the backbone of most countries and will do huge things for Ireland's climate change targets and will be conducive to population expansion to some areas. our current policy is not sustainible and hugely costly, and we have to start somewhere in terms of growing the cities. good heavy and light rail is a huge key to that growth, among many other services.

eastwest

Wagon360 wrote: »

There's nothing "nostalgic" about wanting balanced regional development, getting Ireland ready for population expansion over the next 40 years and to avoid any possible fines from the EU for missing climate change targets. These are the reasons people campaign for rail connections. Those climate change fines will dwarf any costs involved in getting rail connections restored.

That viewpoint isn't based on reality. Like the reality that hauling empty trains around isn't green. Like the reality that you have factor in getting people to and from the train at either end -- the scattered population this line would serve isn't clustered around railheads. Like the reality that this alignment is a 19th century one that rambles everywhere and goes nowhere fast. Like electric cars. Etc.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

the world has not moved on from a good rail network. there is nothing to move on from. a good rail network is the backbone of most countries and will do huge things for Ireland's climate change targets and will be conducive to population expansion to some areas. our current policy is not sustainible and hugely costly, and we have to start somewhere in terms of growing the cities. good heavy and light rail is a huge key to that growth, among many other services.

If we have money to spend on heavy rail it should be used firstly to connect the rail lines into Dublin, and secondly to electrify the lines and increase capacity on these four lines. All four are several congested and/or don't have proper city centre access or onward connections. This will cost around €3.5bn so will take quite some funding.

It's immeasurable how much more beneficial that would be to the country compared to a 95% empty slow moving infrequent requiring vast per passenger operating subsidies between small towns in rural Ireland.

As for "growing the cities", you aren't going to grow any cities by connecting Tuam and Athenry with a rail link. If anything it'll do the opposite by encouraging more people to live in low density satellite towns in Co. Galway.

You'd have some argument here if you could display all the great things that the Western Rail Corridor Phase 1 has done for places like Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell.

westtip

Wagon360 wrote: »

There's nothing "nostalgic" about wanting balanced regional development, getting Ireland ready for population expansion over the next 40 years and to avoid any possible fines from the EU for missing climate change targets. These are the reasons people campaign for rail connections. Those climate change fines will dwarf any costs involved in getting rail connections restored.

If you want balanced regional development lets try this idea:

One of the areas that the Western Rail advocates are arguing for now is that the WRC should be part of the new concept called the Atlantic Economic Corridor.

So here is a balanced view on this idea:

Upgrade the road from Cork to Letterkenny so it is seamless and safe - as we will all be driving electric cars in probably less than ten years, this will have zero effect on emissions, providing our energy is sustainable and not from Carbon burning.

Take the Rail Corridor and use it for economic development. Using the gas from the Corrib run a gas pipeline along its entire length to bring natural gas to the towns along the way, not for domestic use but industrial food processing, natural gas is the preferred energy source of food processors and the arrival of natural gas in the 1960s and 70s in the UK revolutionised food processing there. This would allow our agribusinesses to add value to our fantastic raw materials

Put industrial strength fibre optic cabling along the route, with the transatlantic line landing in Killala this would make the West of Ireland a nanosecond with industrial strength conectivity with north America - think cloud computing opportunities data center opportunities etc. creating high technology skill opportunities

Create a linear wind farm along the route with a wind pylon every kilometre or mile or so all connected via underground cabling.

and of course add a greenway to help the tourist trade and create low impact and not very high technically skilled jobs but still jobs in the hospitality industry.

You see Wagon 360 the issue is not really about the railway, that is not going to happen it is about how we utilize the publicly owned strip of land. I am not anti rail, I don't reign supreme on this thread, I don't bully politicians but what I do do is try rather frustratingly to get this kind of message across.

This is my thinking about what the Atlantic Economic corridor should be and what could be achieved for the greater good of the greater number along the route of the Western Rail Trail.