Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

rebel456

Deleted User wrote: »

Hard core is material used in the construction of roads

Fair enough.

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

Exactly!
Save it from people.

no, save it for people who want a fantastic amenity away from the hustle and bustle. and from what i can gather it's a very popular amenity as it stands.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

no, save it for people who want a fantastic amenity away from the hustle and bustle. and from what i can gather it's a very popular amenity as it stands.

Very popular and soon to become extremely popular to the extent it may create a few jobs in the area.....no doubt about it someone will jump on the gravy train (sic).

Boards.ie: Mark

Hi all, we have been contacted by Save the Barrow Line and posting the below on their behalf to summarise their position. Please bear in mind that this is a once-off post.

Save the Barrow Line wrote:

Save the Barrow Line, www.savethebarrowline.com, believe that the Waterways Ireland Barrow Blueway plan is fundamentally flawed on multiple grounds which include the following:

• The Waterways Ireland proposal does not have the support of the local community. The Save the Barrow Line petition to save the grassy sod surface has approximately 5000 signatures. In addition, when Waterways Ireland submitted their Blueway planning application to three local authorities earlier this year it was met with unprecedented levels of objection. Of the 440+ submissions received by Carlow County Council, less than 3 per cent wrote in support of the application. The vast majority do not share Waterways Ireland’s opinion that the towpath and its tourism potential would benefit from being urbanised in the manner proposed.
  
  
• The path width of 2.5m proposed is, according to TII Publication DN-GEO-0347 (Rural Cycle Scheme Design specification, less than “the minimum width which should be implemented to provide a reasonable quality of service”
  
  
• A “Designers Safety Audit of the Proposed Route” included with the planning application confirms that the route cannot even achieve these less than acceptable standards along its entire route. In particular the Audit:
  o Identifies sections where the provision of a 2.5m path is not achievable.
  
  o Identifies at least one point where the path narrows to 1.0m wide and proposes dealing with this issue by providing edge protection.
  
  o Indicates 41 points where Cyclists are required to dismount – signage is included to communicate this requirement
  
  
• A planning submission from Cyclist.ie, the Irish Cycling Advocacy Network, indicated that "the proposed low standards are such that, in our opinion, the development will fall short of achieving its stated objectives of economic regeneration and of attracting significant numbers of domestic and international cyclists" and that the "proposal falls far short of the vision for the National Cycle Network."
  
  
• The development (which will likely cost somewhere between 8-12 million euro) is unmaintainable, situated as it is on the bank of a river which floods almost every year.
  
  
• Multiple tourism research studies have shown that the reasons tourists find Ireland unique is the green landscape and the unspoilt nature. Removing the grassy surface of the towpath is actually removing its unique selling point and risks alienating the very tourists it seeks to attract. We believe developing and promoting the towpath as an Irish Camino has much greater potential to attract tourists (Santiago de Compostela attracts millions of visitors each year) and can be done without compromising the areas’ natural beauty.
  
  
• The Barrow towpath is a candidate Special Area of Conservation and as such is protected under the EU Habitats Directive. Many environmental and sustainability experts such as Eanna Ni Lamhna, the late Dick Warner and Mary White have indicated that they are against the proposal. Specifically, Ms Ni Lamhna has said that “introducing a composite surface with limestone dust will have a negative impact on the environment both of the bank and the river, and on the wildlife there.”

JCX BXC

Hilarious when one considers the success that the nearby Greenway to Dungarvan has been.

Del.Monte

JCX BXC wrote: »

Hilarious when one considers the success that the nearby Greenway to Dungarvan has been.

There's no comparison between the two. One is an existing route long used by walkers and others - the other was an abandoned rail route used by nobody.

Hugh Jampton

Del.Monte wrote: »

There's no comparison between the two. One is an existing route long used by walkers and others - the other was an abandoned rail route used by nobody.

It doesn't look good when Greenway campaigners take a scorched earth attitude to every possible outlet, other than the massive amount of quiet rural roads which is nearly unique to Ireland, and which has always been available to them. Indeed, one of the posters earlier cited German tourism in the past looking to go off the beaten track in and around Tuam.

If the legacy of the present is going to be industrial estates, underused motorways and every remaining green path in the country covered in hard core or tarmac, don't be surprised if the vast hordes of Tired Hungry Bike Tourists give Ireland's new brutalism a wide swerve.

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

If the legacy of the present is going to be industrial estates, underused motorways and every remaining green path in the country covered in hard core or tarmac, don't be surprised if the vast hordes of Tired Hungry Bike Tourists give Ireland's new brutalism a wide swerve.

Fair enough points but Greenways are not targeted at the German tourism market, yet. In fact, the big successes in Greenways haven't dented this market at all. Although they will, no doubt, at some point, they don't need to right now. The change in holidaying habits for Irish families looking for healthy, activity based short breaks, Airbnb options, better value and better quality dining and, ironically, a better urban to rural rail and motorway network make Greenway destinations the most attractive. Hop on the train at Hueston - hop off at Athenry with a Greenway package deal in your pocket including bike-hire, accommodation and food. That's where it's at now- unless you have a better idea to best invest in both the open and disused rail alignments. Traditional mountain boot trails have a right to argue that they should retain their traditional grassy routes. Rail nostalgics have no such argument with the WRC as it lies rotting into the ground.

schemingbohemia

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

It doesn't look good when Greenway campaigners take a scorched earth attitude to every possible outlet, other than the massive amount of quiet rural roads which is nearly unique to Ireland, and which has always been available to them. Indeed, one of the posters earlier cited German tourism in the past looking to go off the beaten track in and around Tuam.

If the legacy of the present is going to be industrial estates, underused motorways and every remaining green path in the country covered in hard core or tarmac, don't be surprised if the vast hordes of Tired Hungry Bike Tourists give Ireland's new brutalism a wide swerve.

11 of the 15 people killed whilst cycling in 2017 were on rural roads, this idea that rural roads are, in an of themselves, safe for cycling is patently untrue.
Greenways are designed for families to use. Would you allow an 8 year-old family member to cycle alone on these rural roads? Would you even cycle with them?

Hugh Jampton

schemingbohemia wrote: »

11 of the 15 people killed whilst cycling in 2017 were on rural roads, this idea that rural roads are, in an of themselves, safe for cycling is patently untrue.
Greenways are designed for families to use. Would you allow an 8 year-old family member to cycle alone on these rural roads? Would you even cycle with them?

Do you advocate everything to be reduced down to the safety level for an eight year old? I prefer responsible parenting.

end of the road

Muckyboots wrote: »

Fair enough points but Greenways are not targeted at the German tourism market, yet. In fact, the big successes in Greenways haven't dented this market at all. Although they will, no doubt, at some point, they don't need to right now. The change in holidaying habits for Irish families looking for healthy, activity based short breaks, Airbnb options, better value and better quality dining and, ironically, a better urban to rural rail and motorway network make Greenway destinations the most attractive. Hop on the train at Hueston - hop off at Athenry with a Greenway package deal in your pocket including bike-hire, accommodation and food. That's where it's at now- unless you have a better idea to best invest in both the open and disused rail alignments. Traditional mountain boot trails have a right to argue that they should retain their traditional grassy routes. Rail nostalgics have no such argument with the WRC as it lies rotting into the ground.

the amount of families taking such holidays are and always will be a small minority. foreign holidays will always be the main stay of holidaying. the supporters have very much an argument to support the WRC if they wish to do so. it's no smaller an argument then the argument to turn it into a greenway, which is still a minority argument for a minority activity.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

11 of the 15 people killed whilst cycling in 2017 were on rural roads, this idea that rural roads are, in an of themselves, safe for cycling is patently untrue.
Greenways are designed for families to use. Would you allow an 8 year-old family member to cycle alone on these rural roads? Would you even cycle with them?

i cycled rural roads as an 8 year old and a lot younger. not a bother to me either. i was always told "you hear anything, up on the ditch until you are sure it's safe to continue"
you see, my parents brought me up to believe in responsibility from a young age. they recognised that one can only do so much to make things safe and no matter what is done you can't prevent accidents altogether. realistically, there are better things to spend what limited funding we have on then greenways.

MayoForSam

end of the road wrote: »

realistically, there are better things to spend what limited funding we have on then greenways extending the WRC north of Athenry.

Fixed that for you there

Topgear on Dave

end of the road wrote: »

i cycled rural roads as an 8 year old and a lot younger. not a bother to me either. i was always told "you hear anything, up on the ditch until you are sure it's safe to continue"
you see, my parents brought me up to believe in responsibility from a young age. they recognised that one can only do so much to make things safe and no matter what is done you can't prevent accidents altogether. realistically, there are better things to spend what limited funding we have on then greenways.

I pedalled about all the local highways and byways as a kid, over and back to the next town, in and out of the country side. Miles and miles and miles....

The most regular traffic i might meet would be the grannys oul neighbour Jimmy out on his MF135.

But its not the 1980's anymore. The traffic has increased hugely. I know country lanes that had 3 houses on them with (maybe) 2 cars between them in the 80's that now have 10 houses with 2 cars each.

Its not a realistic comparison.

devnull

MayoForSam wrote: »

Fixed that for you there

None of this fixed your post stuff please

- Moderator

end of the road

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I pedalled about all the local highways and byways as a kid, over and back to the next town, in and out of the country side. Miles and miles and miles....

The most regular traffic i might meet would be the grannys oul neighbour Jimmy out on his MF135.

But its not the 1980's anymore. The traffic has increased hugely. I know country lanes that had 3 houses on them with (maybe) 2 cars between them in the 80's that now have 10 houses with 2 cars each.

Its not a realistic comparison.

while traffic may have increased slightly, one can still have the responsibility to work around it and be safe. local roads are as safe in 2018 as 1988 if you are careful. if you have your headphones in or are yapping away well then you aren't concentrating to the full IMO. when we have our public transport system up to scratch which would benefit a lot more people, then we can think about greenways in the west for a minority activity.

Corca Baiscinn

end of the road wrote: »

while traffic may have increased slightly, one can still have the responsibility to work around it and be safe. local roads are as safe in 2018 as 1988 if you are careful. if you have your headphones in or are yapping away well then you aren't concentrating to the full IMO. when we have our public transport system up to scratch which would benefit a lot more people, then we can think about greenways in the west for a minority activity.

That is verifiably nonesensical with respect to many L roads with speed limits of 80 kph. In the intervening 30 years since 1988 cars have got bigger, faster and more numerous .A huge % are now SUV's. One-off houses have also got bigger and more numerous. Inhabitants of aforesaid houses commute long distances to work in aforesaid cars Plus, Local Roads have milk-lorries, bin- trucks, oil-delivery trucks, massive farm machinery etc, etc, etc. The notion that walking/cycling on such roads is in any way safe pleasant or enjoyable is daft.

Quackster

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

It doesn't look good when Greenway campaigners take a scorched earth attitude to every possible outlet, other than the massive amount of quiet rural roads which is nearly unique to Ireland, and which has always been available to them. Indeed, one of the posters earlier cited German tourism in the past looking to go off the beaten track in and around Tuam.

Wow, what a sweeping generalisation!

As a greenway supporter, I certainly don't support the forced upgrading of the Barrow tow-path against the will of the local community. Both sides need to sit down, talk and work out a compromise that best meets the needs of everyone.

Muckyboots

end of the road wrote: »

the amount of families taking such holidays are and always will be a small minority. foreign holidays will always be the main stay of holidaying. the supporters have very much an argument to support the WRC if they wish to do so. it's no smaller an argument then the argument to turn it into a greenway, which is still a minority argument for a minority activity.

Every single sentence of this is totally false. It just is, sorry.

Hugh Jampton

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

That is verifiably nonesensical with respect to many L roads with speed limits of 80 kph. In the intervening 30 years since 1988 cars have got bigger, faster and more numerous .A huge % are now SUV's. One-off houses have also got bigger and more numerous. Inhabitants of aforesaid houses commute long distances to work in aforesaid cars Plus, Local Roads have milk-lorries, bin- trucks, oil-delivery trucks, massive farm machinery etc, etc, etc. The notion that walking/cycling on such roads is in any way safe pleasant or enjoyable is daft.

So all this was a waste of money, then?

Corca Baiscinn

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

So all this was a waste of money, then?

Well the painted lines along busy roads bits certainly were, in particular former or existing N roads , the disused railway lines and canal towpaths bits no. I didnt claim that no road in the country could accommodate cycling, just disputed the poster's view that what worked for him in 1988 would work for people now 30 years later.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

while traffic may have increased slightly, one can still have the responsibility to work around it and be safe. local roads are as safe in 2018 as 1988 if you are careful. if you have your headphones in or are yapping away well then you aren't concentrating to the full IMO. when we have our public transport system up to scratch which would benefit a lot more people, then we can think about greenways in the west for a minority activity.

Would you take your family, including small children, on a cycle touring holiday on Irish roads? Or would you take them on one of the long trails in Europe instead?
I know which option I'd chose.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

no, save it for people who want a fantastic amenity away from the hustle and bustle. and from what i can gather it's a very popular amenity as it stands.

Only a short section, mostly south of Graiguenamanagh, is popular. Most of the rest is quiet and some of it is impassible after rain.
The popular bit has the best surface, which is probably a coincidence. ;-)

Stephen15

eastwest wrote: »

Would you take your family, including small children, on a cycle touring holiday on Irish roads? Or would you take them on one of the long trails in Europe instead?
I know which option I'd chose.

Even if there was a network of Greenways in Ireland people from here will still look to go abroad for cycling hoildays. Anyway most people families particularly don't look to go cycling they are no where near as popular as sun holidays, presently they are a niche market.

monument

Grandeeod wrote: »

I would consider myself a very educated person based on a third level education and a lot of life experience, self education and travel. Your post is ignorant, lazy and like many of your posts opinionated, without any substance to back it up.

Banned for a day. No personal attacks -- please try to keep it to the thread in question and the topic in question, not the poster's genral posting record.

-- moderator

Grandeeod wrote: »

You say traffic has increased slightly on local roads in the last 30 years and one is as safe in 2018 as one was in 1988. Where have you been? Have you considered the massive increase in car ownership nationwide? The increase in one off housing in all parts of rural Ireland? Even current R roads that I cycled/walked in the 80s, would be a bloody deathtrap these days.

To be clear: You are not getting sanctioned for this part of your post.

-- moderator

JCX BXC

To be honest, advocating that Greenways are a waste of money, while opening a very expensive Railway from Athenry to Sligo which will lose more money each year than the greenway would cost - is not a waste of money, is quite frankly absurd!

What has ever happened to logical debates?

monument

Stephen15 wrote: »

Even if there was a network of Greenways in Ireland people from here will still look to go abroad for cycling hoildays. Anyway most people families particularly don't look to go cycling they are no where near as popular as sun holidays, presently they are a niche market.

247,545 people walking and cycling on one route in less than 10 months.

A niche? Really?

devnull

Kristopherus wrote: »

Have a look at the Ibrahim Halawa thread to get an idea of the rubbish he spouts:rolleyes:.

Attack the post and not the poster and keep it on topic - read the charter before posting again.

- Moderator

eastwest

Stephen15 wrote: »

Even if there was a network of Greenways in Ireland people from here will still look to go abroad for cycling hoildays. Anyway most people families particularly don't look to go cycling they are no where near as popular as sun holidays, presently they are a niche market.

Somewhat at odds with the facts. Every greenway built in Ireland has exceeded projections for usage. In addition, research by failte Ireland showed a potential market of 20 million Europeans who take cycling holidays and who would potentially come here if we had a linked trails network such as exists in many European countries. Germany has more than 70,000 km of linked trails, including many long trails on closed rail lines.
Cycling and cycle touring are huge business sectors with the potential to transform rural Ireland, but we don't have the mileage to exploit this opportunity. Other countries do, and are prospering on it.
If in doubt, take your bike to Germany for a week or two; you'll come back converted. Or try the Istrian region, where they are turning all the disused rail lines into a trail network and building a food business on the back of it.
We are so far behind this trend that is makes you wonder what our politicians are at, or if they are capable of anything other than an inward looking group think mentality. There is no better example of this backward focus than this obsession with rusty rails belonging to another era.

Wagon360

eastwest wrote: »

Somewhat at odds with the facts. Every greenway built in Ireland has exceeded projections for usage. In addition, research by failte Ireland showed a potential market of 20 million Europeans who take cycling holidays and who would potentially come here if we had a linked trails network such as exists in many European countries. Germany has more than 70,000 km of linked trails, including many long trails on closed rail lines.
Cycling and cycle touring are huge business sectors with the potential to transform rural Ireland, but we don't have the mileage to exploit this opportunity. Other countries do, and are prospering on it.
If in doubt, take your bike to Germany for a week or two; you'll come back converted. Or try the Istrian region, where they are turning all the disused rail lines into a trail network and building a food business on the back of it.
We are so far behind this trend that is makes you wonder what our politicians are at, or if they are capable of anything other than an inward looking group think mentality. There is no better example of this backward focus than this obsession with rusty rails belonging to another era.

I agree with everything you’ve written up to the point you took a crack at railways again. The problem for most people with the greenway campaign is that it’s all really about stopping the railway at all costs. At a time when nearly all European countries are actively expanding their railways and tackling climate change targets the greenway campaigners just want to grab the railway and make sure it is never fit to run trains on again. Ireland faces massive climate change fines because we have become too reliant on road transport. If we rip up our remaining railways to satisfy three Greenway campaigners dotted around the country we are really going to face billions in fines in the future. Instead we need to plan ahead to reduce our reliance on Dublin as an economic engine and look to the rejuvenation of towns like Tuam.

JCX BXC

However in the case of the remaining part of the WRC, there's absolutely no grounds for its reopening, so it's either rot or become a Greenway!

If eventually there was a demand, it's probably better if it's built along a new alignment anyway.