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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)
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There's been good growth in rail numbers in the Dublin area too. Rail works when moving people around or between areas of high population.
Not places like Tuam or Claremorris.
Such as Derry, Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Cork. Glad to see we agree on something. Claremorris has an active rail connection. Are you eyeing that up for a Greenway as well?0 -
Galway is already connected to Dublin by a rail link, albeit one that struggles to compete with the motorway.Such as Derry, Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Cork. Glad to see we agree on something. Claremorris has an active rail connection. Are you eyeing that up for a Greenway as well?
Claremorris, as you rightly point out, already has a rail connection. It's unlikely to get a second one!0 -
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end of the road wrote: »there is no Athenry-Collooney line. there are 2 separate lines which would eventually bring you to collooney, athenry claremorris and claremorris Collooney. there is no campaign to reopen claremorris Collooney now and tuam claremorris is also definitely not going to reopen. athenry to tuam however could be a possible candidate in the future but time will tell.
Ok I'll correct myself. Athenry-Claremorris and/or Claremorris-Colloney are not high quality public transport links. The M17 is one.Such as Derry, Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Cork. Glad to see we agree on something. Claremorris has an active rail connection. Are you eyeing that up for a Greenway as well?
Claremorris has a railway to a capital city, over long distance, in competition with a poor road. The railway has already been built. Vardakar, and many others, has stated in the past that many currently active railways in Ireland are open because they are built. If there was no rail link to Claremorris at present it would remain rail-less.
Claremorris and Galway are linked by a road that has improved year-on-year for some time. Now Galway-Tuam is motorway and the sections between the Mayo border and Tuam have been heavily realigned. There may be a case for Claremorris-Galway if there was an intact line but the capital investment required would render it unworkable.0 -
Ok I'll correct myself. Athenry-Claremorris and/or Claremorris-Colloney are not high quality public transport links. The M17 is one.
athenry-tuam was well built i believe. the m17 isn't a high quality public transport link as there are huge traffic problems i believe. to remove the traffic issues would cost more then a railway ever could.Claremorris has a railway to a capital city, over long distance, in competition with a poor road. The railway has already been built. Vardakar, and many others, has stated in the past that many currently active railways in Ireland are open because they are built. If there was no rail link to Claremorris at present it would remain rail-less.
Claremorris and Galway are linked by a road that has improved year-on-year for some time. Now Galway-Tuam is motorway and the sections between the Mayo border and Tuam have been heavily realigned. There may be a case for Claremorris-Galway if there was an intact line but the capital investment required would render it unworkable.
if public transport was desired along that corridor, then the capital investment for a railway would be small fry compared to a motor way which will never be able to solve the traffic problems and where the small few busses would get stuck in traffic at the other end. what varadkar says is just his opinion, in general it means nothing as he is only going to be in government for a short while.
for what it's worth if any more of the WRC was to open tuam would be as far as it would go.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »the m17 isn't a high quality public transport link as there are huge traffic problems i believe. to remove the traffic issues would cost more then a railway ever could.
Already underway for the N17 or whatever its called now, with a massive expansion of QBC's planned for all routes around in and around the city. Won't be cheap as they'll have to CPO some of the land, but it will be vastly cheaper, more efficient and have a higher capacity than any rail link between Tuam and Galway thar has to divert to Athenry.end of the road wrote: »what varadkar says is just his opinion, in general it means nothing as he is only going to be in government for a short while.
You are forgetting the opposition leader has a lower opinion of the WRC than Leo0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Already underway for the N17 or whatever its called now, with a massive expansion of QBC's planned for all routes around in and around the city. Won't be cheap as they'll have to CPO some of the land, but it will be vastly cheaper, more efficient and have a higher capacity than any rail link between Tuam and Galway thar has to divert to Athenry.
the reality is rather different i'm afraid. it will never get near the efficientsy that rail can offer, it will never have the capacity rail can offer, and if it's a proper qbc then it will be very debatible as to whether it could be cheaper then a rail link. if it's just painted lanes then sure, but the other 2 will still apply.
road transport can never offer the capacity rail can, it's not possible, even if every bit of land in the country was turned into a road. you cannot road build your way out of transport issues, road can only ever be a part solution. some sort of light rail system is going to have to be put in the cities, there is no getting away from it. by all means build the roads and qbcs as well, but a light rail system is going to have to be the backbone of the cities traffic needs.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Galway is already connected to Dublin by a rail link, albeit one that struggles to compete with the motorway.
Claremorris, as you rightly point out, already has a rail connection. It's unlikely to get a second one!
So if the railway to Galway "struggles to compete with the motorway" you are suggesting taking that out as well? Interesting to see the impact of forcing more cars down the road system in Galway, bypass or no bypass.0 -
Hugh Jampton wrote: »So if the railway to Galway "struggles to compete with the motorway" you are suggesting taking that out as well? Interesting to see the impact of forcing more cars down the road system in Galway, bypass or no bypass.
Not, I'm not suggesting that, just pointing out that even railways between significant centres of population in Ireland find it difficult to survive. Railways in areas of low population might be allowed to continue to operate because they are there, but new ones won't be built.0 -
Not, I'm not suggesting that, just pointing out that even railways between significant centres of population in Ireland find it difficult to survive. Railways in areas of low population might be allowed to continue to operate because they are there, but new ones won't be built.
Over the next 40 years the population of Ireland is expected to expand to nearly double the present size. At the same time we are facing massive climate change fines due to our current over reliance on road transport.
We have a choice as a nation; do we continue in business usual mode and expand road transport and stay Dublin-centric and at the same time pay those climate change fines (and they will be in the billions) or do we take the opportunity to re-imagine the country and plan properly for population expansion while eliminating the notion of a western hinterland fit only for tourism?
Tourism is vital and very welcome but we can’t sit around cap in hand waiting for those visitors to arrive. We need to eliminate forced emigration and redistribute the population to allow opportunities to develop all over Ireland.
Many of you judge what rail infrastructure we have in terms of current usage. We should plan for the future and think in terms of future usage. Of course we should think ahead and plan better alignments and make a commitment to develop those alignments along with a plan for road transport. The two modes - rail and road - must complement each other.
We need to look at our tourism strengths. We have a world class offering in the Wild Atlantic Way. We must develop a parallel off road offering for the Wild Atlantic Way. The beginnings of that offering are there in the shape of the Achill Greenway and the forthcoming Valentia Greenway. We need to join the dots. I’ve cycled extensively along the Donegal, Mayo and Galway coasts. We have World class scenery there. Get those off road routes linked up and there will be a real cycling bonanza.
We need to link up the West Coast cities directly both by road and rail. Eastwest says they are already linked to Dublin but that misses my point completely. These cities need to be linked to each other directly and not just to Dublin. It’s this simple idea that we should be pursuing and to show we are serious about western development for both business and tourism.
My vision is very simple; link what we have by road and rail. Build the off road routes for cyclists and walkers in the right places. Encourage non road travel to and from our airports. If we do get more direct western rail alignments in place then and only then release them for Greenways. Otherwise rail will never come back.0 -
It's all about where this expansion will take place. Worldwide experience would suggest that it will be mostly around the Dublin region. If governments get their act together, a fair bit of it might happen around secondary cities like Cork and Galway, but the reality is that populations won't expand in places like Claremorris or Kiltimagh just because the general population figures increase.Over the next 40 years the population of Ireland is expected to expand to nearly double the present size.
Young people will always migrate to cities where there is opportunity and scope for their skills, and industries will locate where the pool of skilled labour is deepest.
On the one hand we can have all the grand plans we like about repopulating the west or keeping people there, but on the other hand there is reality.0 -
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It's all about where this expansion will take place. Worldwide experience would suggest that it will be mostly around the Dublin region. If governments get their act together, a fair bit of it might happen around secondary cities like Cork and Galway, but the reality is that populations won't expand in places like Claremorris or Kiltimagh just because the general population figures increase.
Young people will always migrate to cities where there is opportunity and scope for their skills, and industries will locate where the pool of skilled labour is deepest.
On the one hand we can have all the grand plans we like about repopulating the west or keeping people there, but on the other hand there is reality.
And a perpetually snarled up Galway, bypass or not, unless we rethink land use and transportation.0 -
The M17 connects the north-west with the south. It was never designed to solve Galway city's commuter problems and never will. QBC's will go along way towards that and they are being actively discussed.end of the road wrote: »athenry-tuam was well built i believe. the m17 isn't a high quality public transport link as there are huge traffic problems i believe. to remove the traffic issues would cost more then a railway ever could.end of the road wrote: »for what it's worth if any more of the WRC was to open tuam would be as far as it would go.
Makes no commercial sense. As been said on this forum on numerous occasions, the WRC connects Tuam to Athenry not Tuam to Galway. Double track Athenry to Galway first, then there might be some potential to establish frequent shuttles into the city from both Athenry & Tuam, but this still doesn't get around the fact that the majority of commuters are travelling to employment destinations on the east and south of the city.0 -
Over the next 40 years the population of Ireland is expected to expand to nearly double the present size. At the same time we are facing massive climate change fines due to our current over reliance on road transport.
We have a choice as a nation; do we continue in business usual mode and expand road transport and stay Dublin-centric and at the same time pay those climate change fines (and they will be in the billions) or do we take the opportunity to re-imagine the country and plan properly for population expansion while eliminating the notion of a western hinterland fit only for tourism?
Tourism is vital and very welcome but we can’t sit around cap in hand waiting for those visitors to arrive. We need to eliminate forced emigration and redistribute the population to allow opportunities to develop all over Ireland.
Many of you judge what rail infrastructure we have in terms of current usage. We should plan for the future and think in terms of future usage. Of course we should think ahead and plan better alignments and make a commitment to develop those alignments along with a plan for road transport. The two modes - rail and road - must complement each other.
We need to look at our tourism strengths. We have a world class offering in the Wild Atlantic Way. We must develop a parallel off road offering for the Wild Atlantic Way. The beginnings of that offering are there in the shape of the Achill Greenway and the forthcoming Valentia Greenway. We need to join the dots. I’ve cycled extensively along the Donegal, Mayo and Galway coasts. We have World class scenery there. Get those off road routes linked up and there will be a real cycling bonanza.
We need to link up the West Coast cities directly both by road and rail. Eastwest says they are already linked to Dublin but that misses my point completely. These cities need to be linked to each other directly and not just to Dublin. It’s this simple idea that we should be pursuing and to show we are serious about western development for both business and tourism.
My vision is very simple; link what we have by road and rail. Build the off road routes for cyclists and walkers in the right places. Encourage non road travel to and from our airports. If we do get more direct western rail alignments in place then and only then release them for Greenways. Otherwise rail will never come back.
A great speech but what about reality? Dublin will continue to be the economic powerhouse of this one city state, it always has been and this is unlikely to change. You talk about connecting the cities of the west, lets get real folks, large towns at best. You talk about climate change fines - but don't mention the electric car.
What you don't really grasp is the so called Western Rail Corridor is a strip of publicly owned land that runs through all the small towns it connects. The economics of the future for exports will not need heavy rail connections, they will need superfast data connections, and a good road network. What has opening the Ennis Athenry line done for Gort. Very little is my guess economically, ok it has provided a few travellers with a little more choice. But really what has it done? How many jobs in the Gort area have actually been created.
I will come back to what I have posted before, use the strip of land in public ownership to really drive the west of Ireland economy.
Gas pipeline - cheaper more efficient energy for food processing and other manufacturing
Industrial strength internet high speed connectivity - creating jobs of the 21st not 19th century
Underground power cabling to connect with windfarms and to support data industry (and hopefully the Apples will come back
And yes a greenway on the surface - to create jobs in tourism
This would be a true economic corridor for the west. Grasp this opportunity for the west, it will do a great deal more than continuing to argue for a railway that simply is not going to happen, and it will help create that redistribution of population back to the West and indeed some growth. A railway will do very little in truth. Nice to have? Need to have? Get real.0 -
A great speech but what about reality? Dublin will continue to be the economic powerhouse of this one city state, it always has been and this is unlikely to change.
If we're going to debate; then we need to look at all of the options for the next 40 years on the table. Just because things have "always been that way" doesn't mean that things have to stay the same. Change, if managed properly, is good.You talk about connecting the cities of the west, lets get real folks, large towns at best. You talk about climate change fines - but don't mention the electric car.
Read the Government's own Ireland 2040 strategy - these large towns as you call them are earmarked for significant expansion over the next 30 years.
Electric car adoption will not in itself generate the step change we need to take for climate change. We need to look at how longer journeys are undertaken and how we manage arriving and leaving the country.What you don't really grasp is the so called Western Rail Corridor is a strip of publicly owned land that runs through all the small towns it connects.
Don't mistake my opposition to your policies as an "inability to grasp" your ideas.The economics of the future for exports will not need heavy rail connections, they will need superfast data connections, and a good road network.
They need both - after all rail is expanding everywhere else in the world.What has opening the Ennis Athenry line done for Gort. Very little is my guess economically, ok it has provided a few travellers with a little more choice. But really what has it done? How many jobs in the Gort area have actually been created.
An exam question. Google Gort's population. It has expanded since 2005. But there is a wider issue for the whole west, after all that is why the concept of the Atlantic Economic Corridor is out there. Getting the West Coast towns and cities connected by road and rail and decent interchanges with our airports is the future and that is what will drive real jobs, not McJobs.I will come back to what I have posted before, use the strip of land in public ownership to really drive the west of Ireland economy.
Gas pipeline - cheaper more efficient energy for food processing and other manufacturing
Industrial strength internet high speed connectivity - creating jobs of the 21st not 19th century
Underground power cabling to connect with windfarms and to support data industry (and hopefully the Apples will come back
Pipelines, power cables and Fibre optic lines can be run along roads, the railway from Athenry to Sligo isn't the only place these can run, I suspect you know that.And yes a greenway on the surface - to create jobs in tourism
More jobs in tourism would be created by providing good road and rail links. Otherwise you are only looking at one part of the market rather than all of it. I personally think a Wild Atlantic Way greenway would generate more tourism jobs and would be a massive boost to the west. Without the need to destroy the railway.This would be a true economic corridor for the west. Grasp this opportunity for the west, it will do a great deal more than continuing to argue for a railway that simply is not going to happen, and it will help create that redistribution of population back to the West and indeed some growth. A railway will do very little in truth.
Cycling alone will not regenerate the entire west.Nice to have? Need to have? Get real.
As always the insults. Carry on with them; you spur me on. No, more than that, your insults got me started on all of this campaigning in the first place.0 -
Cycling alone will not regenerate the entire west.
As always the insults. Carry on with them; you spur me on. No, more than that, your insults got me started on all of this campaigning in the first place.
Did I say getting on bikes will regenerate the west? Err no.
I am not sure why you made the final comment, but glad to hear my intelligent rational arguments are motivating you.0 -
Muckyboots wrote: »The M17 connects the north-west with the south. It was never designed to solve Galway city's commuter problems and never will. QBC's will go along way towards that and they are being actively discussed.
they will go some way to solving it, but it won't be a long way. people in galway know how dublin has had to struggle with bus being the main form of transport in the capital and aren't going to flock to QBCS. QBCS will always be the minority transport. if you want to attract real patronage then planning a light rail system is the only option. it's going to have to happen eventually, so planning should start now. or we can just do a dublin and have bus as the main form of transport and keep spending trying to sort out the traffic problems to make it some bit effective.
you cannot road build your way out of traffic congestion.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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A great speech but what about reality? Dublin will continue to be the economic powerhouse of this one city state, it always has been and this is unlikely to change. You talk about connecting the cities of the west, lets get real folks, large towns at best. You talk about climate change fines - but don't mention the electric car.
the electric car will not be able to solve the climate change issue for a long time if ever. it will have to be powered by something, electricity, powered by power stations burning something. so, while they will help some bit, they are not going to be the solution alone.What you don't really grasp is the so called Western Rail Corridor is a strip of publicly owned land that runs through all the small towns it connects. The economics of the future for exports will not need heavy rail connections, they will need superfast data connections, and a good road network.
and a good rail network also. relying on a good road network for everything is not viable or sustainible and is very very costly. which is why encouraging greater usage of the rail network brings us better results in terms of trying to cut them emissions before we start getting those almost bankrupting fines. and believe me, when the fines start coming we will know about it.Gas pipeline - cheaper more efficient energy for food processing and other manufacturing
such a pipe would be taken a different route. it won't be going along that particular route. + there is no chance in hell that it will provide "cheaper energy" . for the provider it will but not to the customer.Industrial strength internet high speed connectivity - creating jobs of the 21st not 19th century
Underground power cabling to connect with windfarms and to support data industry (and hopefully the Apples will come back
again those will all go easier routes.And yes a greenway on the surface - to create jobs in tourism
there is nothing to say that jobs would be created or even tourism will come. the waterford greenway isn't proof of it as it's a different area and has some bit of sceenery. the wrc has none of thatThis would be a true economic corridor for the west. Grasp this opportunity for the west, it will do a great deal more than continuing to argue for a railway that simply is not going to happen, and it will help create that redistribution of population back to the West and indeed some growth.
nobody is going to come back to the west because of a greenway along a closed route that has no sceenery or nothing to cycle to see.A railway will do very little in truth. Nice to have? Need to have? Get real.
need to have in the future, who knows. need to have now and need to have in the future are very very different.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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No scenery in the west of Ireland? What those cyclists would come for is peace and quiet, no traffic, fresh air and exercise. There's plenty to see from the saddle or walking too, it doesn't have to be herds of Wildebeest sweeping majestically (etc)0
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No scenery in the west of Ireland? What those cyclists would come for is peace and quiet, no traffic, fresh air and exercise. There's plenty to see from the saddle or walking too, it doesn't have to be herds of Wildebeest sweeping majestically (etc)
Not all the West of Ireland has scenery.0 -
everywhere has scenery....0
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I love the "no scenery" argument as I have so often told you our erstwhile friends in West on Track actually used the "no scenery" argument in a submission to Mayo county council on the last county plan when having a tirade against a greenway, the same good folk in West on Track when making a presentation to Sligo county council about their wrong and incorrect choice to back a greenway tried to tell Sligo coco that idea of a velo rail for tourists to use on the fabulous (sic) scenery such as the one on the bogs of Kiltimagh would be a better choice for sligo - thankfully sent away with a flea in their ear, At the same time West on Track also argued that the Western Rail Corridor would bring tourists flocking in to see err......no scenery I presume. Hilarious stuff, mind you Mayo county council obviously listened to West on Track as they advocated a velo rail through the "no scenery" area of the bogs of Kiltimagh, with by the way no safety track alongside .....more to come on that little thorny subject we hope.
I think for tourists there are two kinds of scenery: Destination Scenery or signature scenery (eg the cliffs of Moher) and just plain old countryside. Nice open countryside that has no particular landmark but is nevertheless just nice to be out in enjoying the birds bees and fresh air. sometimes you have to "suffer" the latter before arriving at the destination scenery.0 -
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I love the "no scenery" argument as I have so often told you our erstwhile friends in West on Track actually used the "no scenery" argument in a submission to Mayo county council on the last county plan when having a tirade against a greenway, the same good folk in West on Track when making a presentation to Sligo county council about their wrong and incorrect choice to back a greenway tried to tell Sligo coco that idea of a velo rail for tourists to use on the fabulous (sic) scenery such as the one on the bogs of Kiltimagh would be a better choice for sligo - thankfully sent away with a flea in their ear, At the same time West on Track also argued that the Western Rail Corridor would bring tourists flocking in to see err......no scenery I presume. Hilarious stuff, mind you Mayo county council obviously listened to West on Track as they advocated a velo rail through the "no scenery" area of the bogs of Kiltimagh, with by the way no safety track alongside .....more to come on that little thorny subject we hope.
I think for tourists there are two kinds of scenery: Destination Scenery or signature scenery (eg the cliffs of Moher) and just plain old countryside. Nice open countryside that has no particular landmark but is nevertheless just nice to be out in enjoying the birds bees and fresh air. sometimes you have to "suffer" the latter before arriving at the destination scenery.
I've used velo rail in France, it's a lot of fun. I certainly think the Kiltimagh scheme is to be applauded, not attacked.0 -
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Young Dev thinks the Government have given up the ghost on "Fades 2" of the WRC
http://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-td-claims-government-reneging-western-rail-corridor-commitments/
"A Galway TD claims the Government is reneging on its commitments to the Western Rail Corridor. Deputy Eamon O’ Cuiv says the programme for Government included a pledge to examine the viability of the line between Athenry and Claremorris. However, he says Minister Shane Ross has revealed no work has been undertaken thus far – and he believes there is no appetite to get the review underway. The Fianna Fail deputy says the commitment to examine Phase 2 of the Western Rail Corridor appears to be little more than an empty promise"0 -
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Without quoting posts, I have a few points.
1. The M17 doesn't solve Galway's traffic problems. But half the talk here is of either a freight hub in Claremorris or of reopening the Western Rail Corridor for freight, especially routing to Waterford and Rosslare. The M17 is a high quality link for freight as very little freight going up the west coast originates in Galway, and the M17 connects Galway to Foynes and Rosslare, and also Dublin.
2. Climate change fines. When someone can explain how the emissions from the construction work on Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor and the money spent on the half empty trains is environmentally friendly then I would love to hear the answer. Having diesel trains carry a car load of people is not environmentally friendly.
3. Galway's congestion. The Tuam line will do little for Galway's congestion. How many N17 commuters work or have business anywhere near the train station? If there's money available for investing in rail to solve Galway's congestion issues then it would be much more beneficial building a station in Renmore and double tracking Athenry-Galway and providing a decent service in it. Build a decent P&R at Athenry and Oranmore and use that to get people into the city centre if that's where they need to go.0 -
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Muckyboots wrote: »In fairness, Voz, it is a bit -"Greenway ruined my lovely quiet walk" " Greenway brings D4 types and takes all the nice seats in my local pub" "Greenway ruined by life sized train set", " Greenway money better spent on social housing ", " Campaigners say. give the disused railway back to the landowners", "Cyclists bring their own flask and sandwiches" etc etc....most of the battered veterans here have read these articles before. It's a sign of impending success for a Greenway campaign when these begin to circulate. Happy Christmas BTW.
I assure you I am very pro Greenway, and if you had read my previous posts you would see I am only against this particular one.
Just to note you will have no issue at all getting seats in the local pubs of my local towns many of them have nosedived along with many other businesses as a result of the lack of infrastructure and job opportunities resulting in the upcoming generations leaving to find work and settling.0
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