Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Wagon360

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Growing numbers? The numbers at Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell were less in 2016 than in 2012 - 54 vs 59

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/NTA_Rail_Census_Report_2017_FINAL.pdf

Even skewing things to include Ennis and Sixmilebridge both of those together saw a decrease from 336 in 2012 to 210.

Granted Oranmore has seen an increase to a massive 70 or 2 bus loads.

Ah yes. The good old rail census, undertaken in a November midweek at which point statistically is always regarded as the lowest time of the year for pax numbers. This is pure Beeching-era stuff; laughable really.

Beeching era British Rail used their census data to justify closures and so too does the NTA IMHO.

I’ve always talked about potential for the future: we need to make provision for a larger population over the next 30 years, avoid climate change fines and regenerate the West.

Or we can do nothing, rely on Dublin growth and maintain the current policy of rural managed decline. Oh and spend billions on climate change fines. It doesn’t make sense to me to do that.

Hugh Jampton

Also, an interesting indication of the truth of the old saying, "Where there's muck, there's brass". Found this on my digging for information elsewhere, but it every bit applies to this ongoing saga.

It occurs to me that relaying a former railway can never make enough money for interested parties than a moveable red line on a map for a future road.

Link: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/railway-makes-more-sense-than-m3-1.932230

Night Falls

Wagon360 wrote: »

Ah yes. The good old rail census, undertaken in a November midweek at which point statistically is always regarded as the lowest time of the year for pax numbers. This is pure Beeching-era stuff; laughable really.

As a matter of interest, have you any sources for november being the quietest time of year? I'd be surprised if it's true.

Wagon360

Night Falls wrote: »

As a matter of interest, have you any sources for november being the quietest time of year? I'd be surprised if it's true.

Yes, I can google them.

schemingbohemia

You do understand how trends work?
No-one seems to have an issue with that week being used anywhere else in the country - it's used for all Dublin traffic, not just Rail, it's used for bus, car, tram , pedestrian and cycle movements in Dublin.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Canal_Cordon_Report_2016.pdf

Using November is a time when most people aren't on holidays, schools are all active so it gets a real picture of commuting transport patterns and can be reliably compared year on year because it's always done at the same time of year.

Wagon360

Wagon360 wrote: »

Yes, I can google them.

Visitor numbers in November to Ireland are at their lowest according to Dublin Airport’s own statistics.

I have read in the IRRS Journal comments that November is quietest for InterCity travel and busiest for Dublin Suburban Travel.

Running the survey midweek means that the weekend InterCity peaks aren’t counted or extrapolated into the overall stats either.

Wagon360

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You do understand how trends work?
No-one seems to have an issue with that week being used anywhere else in the country - it's used for all Dublin traffic, not just Rail, it's used for bus, car, tram , pedestrian and cycle movements in Dublin.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Canal_Cordon_Report_2016.pdf

Using November is a time when most people aren't on holidays, schools are all active so it gets a real picture of commuting transport patterns and can be reliably compared year on year because it's always done at the same time of year.

Yes I do understand how trends work thank you very much. I also understand how stats can be skewed to give the result wanted.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

well actually we don't know this for definite given that there are quite a lot of through passengers now from what i understand.

And you don't know for definite if you are right, unless you have facts, which you don't.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Growing numbers? The numbers at Gort, Ardrahan and Craughwell were less in 2016 than in 2012 - 54 vs 59

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/NTA_Rail_Census_Report_2017_FINAL.pdf

Even skewing things to include Ennis and Sixmilebridge both of those together saw a decrease from 336 in 2012 to 210.

Granted Oranmore has seen an increase to a massive 70 or 2 bus loads.

No matter how many times these figures are presented the WRC supporters call conspiracy.

Wagon360 wrote: »

Ah yes. The good old rail census, undertaken in a November midweek at which point statistically is always regarded as the lowest time of the year for pax numbers. This is pure Beeching-era stuff; laughable really.

Beeching era British Rail used their census data to justify closures and so too does the NTA IMHO.

I’ve always talked about potential for the future: we need to make provision for a larger population over the next 30 years, avoid climate change fines and regenerate the West.

Or we can do nothing, rely on Dublin growth and maintain the current policy of rural managed decline. Oh and spend billions on climate change fines. It doesn’t make sense to me to do that.

See. Conspiracy towards the whest and rural Ireland. The same old argument.

Wagon360 wrote: »

Visitor numbers in November to Ireland are at their lowest according to Dublin Airport’s own statistics.

I have read in the IRRS Journal comments that November is quietest for InterCity travel and busiest for Dublin Suburban Travel.

Running the survey midweek means that the weekend InterCity peaks aren’t counted or extrapolated into the overall stats either.

If the IRRS Journal is a reference in this debate then things have reached the bottom of the barrel in terms of offering up stats to defend the WRC.

Wagon360

Grandeeod wrote: »

And you don't know for definite if you are right, unless you have facts, which you don't.



No matter how many times these figures are presented the WRC supporters call conspiracy.



See. Conspiracy towards the whest and rural Ireland. The same old argument.



If the IRRS Journal is a reference in this debate then things have reached the bottom of the barrel in terms of offering up stats to defend the WRC.

The Whest. Where’s that.

Actually the IRRS Journal is well researched and is used as a historical reference in academia. But why let that stand in the way of a sloppy and aggressive post.

Grandeeod

Wagon360 wrote: »

The Whest. That good old patronising standby.

Actually no. It's how many from the west of Ireland pronounce it. It's not patronising at all. My west of Ireland friends use the term with aplomb. If you are from the "Whest" you should know that. So less of the deflection and back to the real issue.

Wagon360

Grandeeod wrote: »

Actually no. It's how many from the west of Ireland pronounce it. It's not patronising at all. My west of Ireland friends use the term with aplomb. If you are from the "Whest" you should know that. So less of the deflection and back to the real issue.

The real issue isn’t end of the road, or me or indeed what situation we have now. The real decision that we have to take is what response should we have to the next 30 years.

Business as Usual, or change?

Any time you are ready to actually debate and set out your vision for the future I’ll be ready.

Grandeeod

Wagon360 wrote: »

The Whest. Where’s that.

Actually the IRRS Journal is well researched and is used as a historical reference in academia. But why let that stand in the way of a sloppy and aggressive post.

Oh we are editing posts now.:rolleyes:

My post is not aggressive or sloppy. The IRRS Journal is indeed a historical reference. It has been well documented here by Mods, the IRRS and its members that they do not get involved in any debate about railways. They just "record" events etc etc. Oh they organise railtours aswell. They are also inherently pro all aspects of Irish Railways and very reluctant to offer any form of criticism towards the rail operator and have never presented any form of objection to the reopening of the WRC or the closure of any line in recent times. Therefore it is best if you leave the IRRS out of this debate.

If you would like to open a thread somewhere to debate the "accuracy" of the IRRS's recording of events since 2003, I'd be happy to point out their ignorance and bias. But lets get back to the WRC.

Grandeeod

Wagon360 wrote: »

The real issue isn’t end of the road, or me or indeed what situation we have now. The real decision that we have to take is what response should we have to the next 30 years.

Business as Usual, or change?

Any time you are ready to actually debate and set out your vision for the future I’ll be ready.

I've debated it for years on this thread. You are just reheating old soup with the same old arguments. My vision for the future re the WRC is simple. Its dead in the water. The alignment has no role in the 21st century. If you want a railway from Derry to Limerick, you need a new alignment. Go campaign for that and let someone use the original alignment for something worthwhile. Clinging to the original alignment is pointless. If the money fell out of the sky tomorrow and we decided to reopen the entire length of the WRC, it would be a joke. From an engineering perspective it would offer a sub standard form of rail transport due to its original build. You can't change that reality.

Wagon360

Wagon360 wrote: »

Visitor numbers in November to Ireland are at their lowest according to Dublin Airport’s own statistics.

I have read in the IRRS Journal comments that November is quietest for InterCity travel and busiest for Dublin Suburban Travel.

Running the survey midweek means that the weekend InterCity peaks aren’t counted or extrapolated into the overall stats either.

November being the busiest month for commuter travel doesn't really help your argument.

November is generally a busy time on the roads as mentioned above. Schools, colleges, factories, offices all open at the same time lead to busy roads - it should motivate people to switch.

Wagon360

Grandeeod wrote: »

I've debated it for years on this thread. You are just reheating old soup with the same old arguments. My vision for the future re the WRC is simple. Its dead in the water. The alignment has no role in the 21st century. If you want a railway from Derry to Limerick, you need a new alignment. Go campaign for that and let someone use the original alignment for something worthwhile. Clinging to the original alignment is pointless. If the money fell out of the sky tomorrow and we decided to reopen the entire length of the WRC, it would be a joke. From an engineering perspective it would offer a sub standard form of rail transport due to its original build. You can't change that reality.

At the risk of repeating myself; what is your vision for the next 30 years? How do we manage population expansion?

Business as usual;

Or Change? If change, what change?

Wagon360

Wagon360 wrote: »

The real issue isn’t end of the road, or me or indeed what situation we have now. The real decision that we have to take is what response should we have to the next 30 years.

Business as Usual, or change?

Any time you are ready to actually debate and set out your vision for the future I’ll be ready.

That was my question; no edits. Awaiting your answer.

Wagon360

Wagon360 wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself; what is your vision for the next 30 years? How do we manage population expansion?

Business as usual;

Or Change? If change, what change?

What on earth has population expansion to do with a 19th century closed railway line?

There will be no population expansion great enough to justify opening a rail link between Galway and Tuam for the foreseeable future and when it does occur this alignment won't be used.

Harping on about population growth is not going to change the fact this alignment is totally the wrong thing to use in a modern rail network (if that's what you want).

Wagon360

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What on earth has population expansion to do with a 19th century closed railway line?

There will be no population expansion great enough to justify opening a rail link between Galway and Tuam for the foreseeable future and when it does occur this alignment won't be used.

Harping on about population growth is not going to change the fact this alignment is totally the wrong thing to use in a modern rail network (if that's what you want).

Then I suggest you read the National Planning Framework. Familiarise yourself with John Moran’s presentations and articles on future population exapansion of Ireland and ask why are we facing massive climate change fines.

Wagon360

Wagon360 wrote: »

Then I suggest you read the National Planning Framework. Familiarise yourself with John Moran’s presentations and articles on future population exapansion of Ireland and ask why are we facing massive climate change fines.

Still not going to result in the opening of this line for rail no matter what way you want to spin it. There simply isn't the business case, funding stream, demand or justification for it. There just isn't.

First it was "there'll be loads of people on it, swear".... this has been shown to be a fallacy from the day it opened with it never meeting the projections. The only way the numbers finally started growing was to slash the ticket price to such an extent that its one of the most heavily subsidised routes in the country and is sucking up much needed funds from the IE budget.

Then it was "but sure think of all the freight".... of which there isn't any that needs a rail line taking this route. In addition, the opened section has shown zero growth in the demand for freight.

Next it was "but it'll bring loads of jobs because businesses need the railway"... but hasn't done so in any of the WRC towns along the opened section while blatantly ignoring the fact that the Greenways opened around the country have revitalised rural areas to an extent not seen in generations with cafés, shops, hotels, B&B's etc, all providing jobs and supporting the local communities.

Now its a mix of worrying about the environment and the national coffers with "but we need it to avoid the EU fines".... which it won't do anything to lessen and would probably make worse due to the fact that running near empty diesel trains is not efficient. The fact that bicycles don't produce any emissions seems to be ignored on a regular basis too.

Trains may end up running between Galway and Letterkenny in some future era, but they won't going on this track.

Hugh Jampton

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not going to result in the opening of this line for rail no matter what way you want to spin it. There simply isn't the business case, funding stream, demand or justification for it. There just isn't.

First it was "there'll be loads of people on it, swear".... this has been shown to be a fallacy from the day it opened with it never meeting the projections. The only way the numbers finally started growing was to slash the ticket price to such an extent that its one of the most heavily subsidised routes in the country and is sucking up much needed funds from the IE budget.

Then it was "but sure think of all the freight".... of which there isn't any that needs a rail line taking this route. In addition, the opened section has shown zero growth in the demand for freight.

Next it was "but it'll bring loads of jobs because businesses need the railway"... but hasn't done so in any of the WRC towns along the opened section while blatantly ignoring the fact that the Greenways opened around the country have revitalised rural areas to an extent not seen in generations with cafés, shops, hotels, B&B's etc, all providing jobs and supporting the local communities.

Now its a mix of worrying about the environment and the national coffers with "but we need it to avoid the EU fines".... which it won't do anything to lessen and would probably make worse due to the fact that running near empty diesel trains is not efficient. The fact that bicycles don't produce any emissions seems to be ignored on a regular basis too.

Trains may end up running between Galway and Letterkenny in some future era, but they won't going on this track.

Straw man versions. By the way, what route will be acceptable for rerouting just Galway to Tuam? I reckon the apparent champions of Greenways will still be having conniptions if there was a serious proposal to route a tramway or commuter railway along the N17..

Hugh Jampton

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Straw man versions.

By its very definition, a straw man argument means refuting an argument not made.

Every point I made above directly refutes posts made on this thread, many in recent pages.

So please, try again

schemingbohemia

Wagon360 wrote: »

Then I suggest you read the National Planning Framework. Familiarise yourself with John Moran’s presentations and articles on future population exapansion of Ireland and ask why are we facing massive climate change fines.

There's nothing in the NPF or John Moran's presentations that supports increasing the size of Tuam to merit a slow railway connection. The NPF is actually about supporting the increase of the cities that we have, Galway and Limerick included, nothing about Tuam. And certainly nothing about connecting Sligo or Westport to Limerick by a slow train service.

I'm all in favour of increasing rail where there is likely to be sufficient use to merit it, not where population is too low or spread out, and certainly not where using the train will take significantly longer than a bus or car.

Hugh Jampton

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There's nothing in the NPF or John Moran's presentations that supports increasing the size of Tuam to merit a slow railway connection. The NPF is actually about supporting the increase of the cities that we have, Galway and Limerick included, nothing about Tuam. And certainly nothing about connecting Sligo or Westport to Limerick by a slow train service.

I'm all in favour of increasing rail where there is likely to be sufficient use to merit it, not where population is too low or spread out, and certainly not where using the train will take significantly longer than a bus or car.

Who is advocating a ‘slow’ railway connection? Straw man stuff again.

Hugh Jampton

Deleted User wrote: »

By its very definition, a straw man argument means refuting an argument not made.

Every point I made above directly refutes posts made on this thread, many in recent pages.

So please, try again

No, you put up cartoon versions of some arguments.

Muckyboots

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Who is advocating a ‘slow’ railway connection? Straw man stuff again.

Paint a picture ( not a cartoon) of a fast rail connection utilising the WRC, please !! Promise I'll change my mind if it makes even an iota of sense.

schemingbohemia

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Who is advocating a ‘slow’ railway connection? Straw man stuff again.

So you're proposing a new direct route from Tuam to Galway rather than the one that West On Track are proposing that goes via Athenry?

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

Paint a picture ( not a cartoon) of a fast rail connection utilising the WRC, please !! Promise I'll change my mind if it makes even an iota of sense.

It doesn't have to make sense, that's the whole point. They have the DART and LUAS in Dublin, therefore....

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not going to result in the opening of this line for rail no matter what way you want to spin it. There simply isn't the business case, funding stream, demand or justification for it. There just isn't.

First it was "there'll be loads of people on it, swear".... this has been shown to be a fallacy from the day it opened with it never meeting the projections. The only way the numbers finally started growing was to slash the ticket price to such an extent that its one of the most heavily subsidised routes in the country and is sucking up much needed funds from the IE budget.

Then it was "but sure think of all the freight".... of which there isn't any that needs a rail line taking this route. In addition, the opened section has shown zero growth in the demand for freight.

Next it was "but it'll bring loads of jobs because businesses need the railway"... but hasn't done so in any of the WRC towns along the opened section while blatantly ignoring the fact that the Greenways opened around the country have revitalised rural areas to an extent not seen in generations with cafés, shops, hotels, B&B's etc, all providing jobs and supporting the local communities.

Now its a mix of worrying about the environment and the national coffers with "but we need it to avoid the EU fines".... which it won't do anything to lessen and would probably make worse due to the fact that running near empty diesel trains is not efficient. The fact that bicycles don't produce any emissions seems to be ignored on a regular basis too.

Trains may end up running between Galway and Letterkenny in some future era, but they won't going on this track.

running a diesel train even if empty is likely way more environmentally friendly then road transport will ever be, not that there are empty trains in ireland anymore.
bicycles may not produce emissions but how likely will it be that cycling will be anything more then a very niche activity? i personally can't see it but time will tell i guess.
galway is going to get more railway at some stage, i'd reccan it's a case of when and not if. because roads will never be able to be the solution, it's not sustainible or viable as no country has successfully road built their way out of traffic problems. you can like or dislike it all you like but the road centric ideals will be ended whether it be at the governments hand or by bankrupting carbon emissions fines which can't come soon enough.

eastwest

end of the road wrote: »

running a diesel train even if empty is likely way more environmentally friendly then road transport will ever be, not that there are empty trains in ireland anymore.

That's simply not factual.
If you want to see empty trains, sit alongside the line at Craughwell any day and you'll see plenty of them.
A diesel trail that is only carrying a fractional load is far more uneconomic to run than several other modes of transport. Other countries for instance are using methane-powered buses, or electric buses charged from renewables, and these have a far lower carbon footprint than diesel trains that are not being used efficiently. Even modern diesel buses that are correctly sized for the necessary load factor are more efficient than empty trains.

Grandeeod

Wagon360 wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself; what is your vision for the next 30 years? How do we manage population expansion?

Business as usual;

Or Change? If change, what change?

Repeat yourself all you want. I answered your question in relation to the WRC over the next 30 years. That's what I come here to talk about. You can add another 90 years to that if you want because the result will be the same.

Now as for you dragging in population expansion and its relevance to a poorly built piece of 19th century infrastructure, well I just see that as yet another silly attempt to justify it's existence based on talking points that are very very loosely connected to the WRC.

By the way you did edit posts.