Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

I'd be surprised if we're surprised.

Surprise!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-s-capital-plan-to-include-a-new-hospital-in-cork-1.3383883

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Surprise!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-s-capital-plan-to-include-a-new-hospital-in-cork-1.3383883

It was never going to be any different, particularly if people listened to the hints coming from Irish rail and leaks coming from government and DOT circles on recent months.
Realistically, capital spending will focus on areas of greatest need in the first instance, and then on areas that will give the most return. The wrc isn't even at the races in any of that.
This being Ireland though, the spin that we'll get from Minister Ring and deputy Canney will be hilarious. I also wouldn't rule out them adding a form of words to the plan that will block the greenway project, even though they will concede that the railway is dead.

westtip

Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign
February 8th 2018 for immediate release

• Western Rail Corridor extension excluded from National Development Plan
• Greenway now a clear option to protect route in public ownership
• Greenway campaign calls on Minister to openly support the Western Rail Trail
• On line petitions for greenway on closed railway exceed 5,000

A spokesman for the Western Rail Trail Campaign – a collection of community-based groups campaigning to preserve the alignment of the closed rail line from Athenry to Collooney by utilising the route for tourism and leisure as a greenway until such time as a railway may be possible, has stated that the report in the Irish Times today (February 8th) that an extension of the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry will not be included in the soon to be published National Development Plan has opened the way for the closed railway route to be utilised as a greenway.

“It now has to be accepted that the railway north of Athenry and onwards to Sligo is not going to be built, but in line with comments made by Irish Rail closed routes must be protected” said a campaign spokesperson.

The Western Rail Trail campaign say there is huge support for the Western Rail Trail greenway with local campaign groups in operation in Galway, Mayo and Sligo. “We know people support this idea based on the response to on line petitions we have running and the local support for groups in Sligo Mayo and Galway” said the spokesperson. “One of our petitions asking for greenway from Athenry to Sligo on the closed railway has hit nearly 4,000 signatures, with other petitions focussed on local sections of the line also having heavy local support. In total over 5,000 on line petitioners have signed our petitions.” People can still sign our petitions by going to change.org and search “Western Rail Trail campaign”

The campaign says it has the support of 2 out of the 3 Galway East TDs, Ciaran Cannon FG and Anne Rabbitte FF who are both publically in favour of the Western Rail Trail Greenway being built on the closed railway. Quinn said we hope both TDs who support the greenway in Galway East will ensure that no last minute changes are made in the National Development Plan to try and stop the route being used as a public utility which will create tourism jobs. The railway is not going to be built so let’s see some use made of the facility and protect the route until such time as a railway might be possible.

Ends: Main body text 372 words
contacts via facebook page of sligo mayo greenway page.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-s-capital-plan-to-include-a-new-hospital-in-cork-1.3383883

From that Irish Times report:

The Irish Times wrote:

The Government’s National Development Plan ... will not include an extension to the Western Rail Corridor.
...
While it was certain the Western Rail Corridor expansion would not be included
...
The programme for government committed to assessing the viability of the Western Rail Corridor on the insistance of a number of Independent TDs and the failure to include it may cause significant political difficulties.

Western Rail Corridor/West-On-Track? Game Over.

Now, let's get on with building the Greenway.

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

From that Irish Times report:
Western Rail Corridor/West-On-Track? Game Over.

Now, let's get on with building the Greenway.

Indeed although I am not counting any chickens yet, the ability of some of the politicians that support WOT to put a touch of spin on this and to block the greenway out of sheer spite with some form of wording in the National Development Plan is still a distinct possibility. However I would say the writing has been on the wall for this type of news for a very long time, let's just hope it doesn't get hijacked with a touch of spin. It's not over yet, you can be sure that even this evening the best efforts are being made to spin this one.

westtip

As predicted the attempt to fudge the issue started yesterday, Canney is applying pressure on his mate in Transport.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/galway-cork-west-dublin-hospitals-to-come-under-capital-plan-1.3385852

marno21

westtip wrote: »

As predicted the attempt to fudge the issue started yesterday, Canney is applying pressure on his mate in Transport.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/galway-cork-west-dublin-hospitals-to-come-under-capital-plan-1.3385852

It will be interesting to see how this works out given that the Minister himself is also part of the Dinosaur Alliance that are backing Canney for this circus.

westtip

marno21 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how this works out given that the Minister himself is also part of the Dinosaur Alliance that are backing Canney for this circus.

As likely or not the fudge will consist of a commitment to complete the study into the Western Rail Corridor, with a caveat that nothing can be done with the line until that is completed. The famous report Canney said he was going to get within 6 months of being in government. Although it is difficult to see how any report could justify the WRC after all the negative views that have come out of the NTA and Irish Rail about the WRC, this report will take us to the next general election. Canney will have done the job his masters told him to do, to keep the greenway off the closed railway at all costs and we will all have to suffer this endless debate and arguments about the WRC. Nothing happening is always the best option for politicians then no one gets the blame. There is a half chance Canneys handling of this might actually do him some harm in his chances to get re-elected and who knows a credible local candidate in East Galway might challenge his position, there appears to be a lot of negativity towards Canney about this issue in the Tuam area if someone could come through the local ranks to challenge him at the polls this might just be his undoing, although I doubt it.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

As likely or not the fudge will consist of a commitment to complete the study into the Western Rail Corridor, with a caveat that nothing can be done with the line until that is completed. The famous report Canney said he was going to get within 6 months of being in government. Although it is difficult to see how any report could justify the WRC after all the negative views that have come out of the NTA and Irish Rail about the WRC, this report will take us to the next general election. Canney will have done the job his masters told him to do, to keep the greenway off the closed railway at all costs and we will all have to suffer this endless debate and arguments about the WRC. Nothing happening is always the best option for politicians then no one gets the blame. There is a half chance Canneys handling of this might actually do him some harm in his chances to get re-elected and who knows a credible local candidate in East Galway might challenge his position, there appears to be a lot of negativity towards Canney about this issue in the Tuam area if someone could come through the local ranks to challenge him at the polls this might just be his undoing, although I doubt it.

It's all very interesting from a political perspective. Canney has only one weapon, to threaten to pull the rug from under government if they don't kick the can down the road past the next election to give him a chance to get back on his gravy train. Will Varadkar eyeball him and tell him to f off, or will he allow a sentence in the NDP that gives Canney something to bring back to WOT? My guess is the latter, but there is another scenario.
A lot of speculation now suggests an election in June or thereabouts, or even earlier if it was to get some conservative FG deputies off the hook on the 8th referendum. Canney had his chance when this government was starting out, but that lever is an awful lot shorter now. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Varadkar will refuse to back down and will just let Canney bring down the government, bringing an election that nobody wants but that can be blamed entirely on the electorate voting for IA members.
If this game of poker plays out Canney will have to decide whether he can go back to Tuam with nothing. He must surely now be regretting that he blew it so completely during the formation of government. He would have got almost anything he asked for Tuam, but he chose instead to look for a report on a railway that nobody gives a damn about, and in the end he didn't even get that. From a position where he held the balance of power in the country, all he got was half a junior ministry for himself, and nothing for the people who elected him. A great hand badly played.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

It's all very interesting from a political perspective. Canney has only one weapon, to threaten to pull the rug from under government if they don't kick the can down the road past the next election to give him a chance to get back on his gravy train. Will Varadkar eyeball him and tell him to f off, or will he allow a sentence in the NDP that gives Canney something to bring back to WOT? My guess is the latter, but there is another scenario.
A lot of speculation now suggests an election in June or thereabouts, or even earlier if it was to get some conservative FG deputies off the hook on the 8th referendum. Canney had his chance when this government was starting out, but that lever is an awful lot shorter now. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Varadkar will refuse to back down and will just let Canney bring down the government, bringing an election that nobody wants but that can be blamed entirely on the electorate voting for IA members.
If this game of poker plays out Canney will have to decide whether he can go back to Tuam with nothing. He must surely now be regretting that he blew it so completely during the formation of government. He would have got almost anything he asked for Tuam, but he chose instead to look for a report on a railway that nobody gives a damn about, and in the end he didn't even get that. From a position where he held the balance of power in the country, all he got was half a junior ministry for himself, and nothing for the people who elected him. A great hand badly played.

Interesting analysis EASTWEST, it also points to the great opportunity missed not only by the IA but the lobby group West on Track, well meaning folk who really missed the boat in terms of what could have been achieved. Re-opening closed rural railways is simply not on the agenda, never has been, and never will be. Here is a front page extract from the Sunday Times (can't post a link as ST is on a pay per view basis only)

Sunday Times front page article February 11th In response to lobbying by rural TDs, the government will announce on Friday that Athlone a and Sligo are to be regional capitals for the midlands and North West and it will promise to upgrade the N4 road from Mullingar to Longford to dual carriageway standard....However, there will be no funding to extend the western rail corridor from Athenry to Claremorris or to lay a dual carriageway from Tuam to Letterkenny

That last piece about a dc from Tuam to Letterkenny is the thing the likes of Canney and Sean Kyne (an FG dinosaur from the west) should be up in arms about. The west of Ireland is a car dependent region, for public transport it is becoming bus dependent, and as we will all be driving electric cars within 10 years please spare me the carbon emissions argument. The N17 north of Tuam and the N16 north or Sligo is little more than a death trap. Now yes the traffic counts may not justify a full motorway, but a seamless smooth road would save lives and would contribute to the economy of the West and north west hugely.

The great pity is that so many of the west TDs and councillors have had this fixation for years about the closed railway as if it will be some panacea, it won't and what's more it is not going to happen. Get over it and think about it. Had the likes of Canney demanded the N17 be upgraded all the way from Tuam to Letterkenny on the very first day he took office and got that written into the programme for government, the liklihood is that such a committment would then have transferred to the new national development plan; that would have been a huge result.

What did Canney do instead? He asked for a study into the Western Rail Corridor, he didn't even insist it should be re-opened he asked for another report about it! Great stuff Sean go back to your electorate waving your piece of paper "I have secured a report into the Western Rail Corridor, I have stopped the Athenry Tuam Milltown greenway being built and I never even asked for what people actually wanted in the west, a good road all the way from Letterkenny to Tuam and onto Cork, if you want another report vote for me!"

Remember the piece of paper waved by Neville Chamberlain in 1938. "Peace in our time" Pieces of paper and reports do nothing for peoples lives.

Nice one Sean Canney you well and truly F****ed up your chance of achievement, go read the life and times of Tony Gregory and see what he did when he held the balance of power, he may not have saved the Dublin Inner city but he did a lot for it, and got re-elected in every election afterwards for what he did for his constituents.

Muckyboots

When you strip away all the heated rhetoric and pedantic nonsense from both sides of the debate, myself included, and it boils down to a hospital in Cork, a dual carriageways from Tuam to Sligo or rural rail from Claremorris to Athenry - it fairly puts the options into focus. These press leaks have a purpose, me thinks.

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

When you strip away all the heated rhetoric and pedantic nonsense from both sides of the debate, myself included, and it boils down to a hospital in Cork, a dual carriageways from Tuam to Sligo or rural rail from Claremorris to Athenry - it fairly puts the options into focus. These press leaks have a purpose, me thinks.

Yep count me among the rhetoric and pedantic nonsense! And yes these press leaks may well have a purpose, hopefully it is to cushion the "disappointment" about the WRC. Somehow I reckon there will be a last minute fudge, I can see another report on the horizon, but I sincerely hope that two immediate past Transport Ministers now in the most important offices of state have the balls to stand up and be counted on this one, but this is politics and re-election is the most important thing. I wonder how the people of Tuam will treat the Claremorris TD when he stands at the hustings to say "I demanded a report and I got a report, I am the man for ye, I promise all of you here in Tuam who support this greenway I will stop it for you"

westtip

Nice coverage about the level of support for the greenway in the Con Telegraph today

http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/02/12/4152086-greenway-petition-hits-over-4000-signatures/

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Nice coverage about the level of support for the greenway in the Con Telegraph today

http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/02/12/4152086-greenway-petition-hits-over-4000-signatures/

In a sense, what the public wants is irrelevant. This is all about politics; eamon o'cuiv is promising trains everywhere so Sean Kyne had to promise more trains to more places. Sean Canney is a one trick pony who built his reputation on trains and can't afford to tell the truth at this stage. Michael Ring will fund anything as long as it is in westport, so promising a train is easy for him -- he knows it will never happen so it won't ever be a drain on his budget. And all of them have assorted councilors who are sticking with the west on track bandwagon because it works as a vote getter. There is even a bit of crossover, with Sean Kyne's parliamentary assistant being a WOT councillor.
Mad stuff, but don't be fooled into thinking that the interests of the population has anything to do with it.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

In a sense, what the public wants is irrelevant. This is all about politics; eamon o'cuiv is promising trains everywhere so Sean Kyne had to promise more trains to more places. Sean Canney is a one trick pony who built his reputation on trains and can't afford to tell the truth at this stage. Michael Ring will fund anything as long as it is in westport, so promising a train is easy for him -- he knows it will never happen so it won't ever be a drain on his budget. And all of them have assorted councilors who are sticking with the west on track bandwagon because it works as a vote getter. There is even a bit of crossover, with Sean Kyne's parliamentary assistant being a WOT councillor.
Mad stuff, but don't be fooled into thinking that the interests of the population has anything to do with it.

Yep but somehow I feel the game is up, there has just been so much negative talk about the Western Rail Corridor and so many leaks that it will not happen I just think (hope) that finally we are about to hear that most strange thing in irish politics - a decision.

westtip

Pressure on Canney to step up to the plate on the greenway, his local paper putting pressure on him

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/02/14/4152137-greenway-campaigners-urge-canney-to-back-plans-as-rail-investment-set-to-vanish/#comments

marno21

Leo Varadkar, Taoiseach wrote:

On rail services, I am not in a position to make announcements today. Decisions will be made on Friday and then announced. Speaking as a former transport Minister and somebody who is interested in the issue, especially railways, heavy railways, in particular, are very expensive to build and once they are built, if they do not carry significant passenger numbers, they are very expensive to operate. When one is prioritising spending on rail services, the first thing one needs to prioritise is safety. A lot of the investment needs to go into existing rail lines to improve safety. The second thing one needs to do is deal with congestion. Some train lines are very heavily used, while others are not. We need to reduce congestion and increase frequency and line speeds on the heavily congested lines. If one is to build new additional train lines, they need to be subjected to a proper appraisal. I refer to such things as a net present value and a benefit to cost ratio. The commitment on the western rail corridor in the programme for Government is not to build or complete it but to carry out such an appraisal of such a benefit to cost ratio. The last time it was done it came out negatively at a cost of 100 against six - 100 being the cost and six the benefit.

Most rail projects come out around 100 to 80. It did not come out of that well and had a negative net present value over 30 years. Indeed, that turned out to be optimistic. Passenger numbers are now half what they were projected to be at this point. They were supposed to be 200,000 after five years. Moreover, the cost of building came in higher.

However, that is not to say that we cannot examine it again or examine doing further sections of it, but we would of course have to do full and proper appraisal and cost-benefit analysis. It would not be justifiable to proceed with a project in full knowledge of how the assessment came out. I imagine Deputies will agree that is the right approach to proper planning and use of taxpayers' money.

Fairly black and white that.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Pressure on Canney to step up to the plate on the greenway, his local paper putting pressure on him

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2018/02/14/4152137-greenway-campaigners-urge-canney-to-back-plans-as-rail-investment-set-to-vanish/#comments

He might be under pressure, but my guess is he'll try to come up with some excuse to keep fudging until after the election.
The organisation he supports is something of a cult at this stage, and won't allow him to change his stance all that readily.

westtip

marno21 wrote: »

Fairly black and white that.

From what you say it looks like he will get his report promised in the NDP on Friday and that will be the end of it, where did you pick up that quote from Varadkar.....

found it in the dail reports very interesting, definitely sounds like a Canney fudge coming

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2018021400020?opendocument

marno21

Dail debate on NBP from Wednesday

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-02-14a.349

westtip

marno21 wrote: »

Dail debate on NBP from Wednesday

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-02-14a.349

Yep see my revision to post, looks like there will be a fudge on this with the infamous report to come.

Muckyboots

marno21 wrote: »

Dail debate on NBP from Wednesday

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-02-14a.349

A pyrrhic victory of sorts for Sean, but given Varadkar's expansive Dail reply and his voters well informed viewpoint, one he might end up regretting. Ringer will have a billion in his back pocket for North Mayo. Sean will have a useless, face saving, predetermined report for South Mayo and North Galway.

marno21

Muckyboots wrote: »

A pyrrhic victory of sorts for Sean, but given Varadkar's expansive Dail reply and his voters well informed viewpoint, one he might end up regretting. Ringer will have a billion in his back pocket for North Mayo. Sean will have a useless, face saving, predetermined report for South Mayo and North Galway.

He could have gone back to his constituents with a greenway and N17 dualling project. But no.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

He could have gone back to his constituents with a greenway and N17 dualling project. But no.

One of the worst examples I can ever remember of a politician dropping the ball. Sean Canney coukd have put east Galway front and centre of the NDP but instead he delivers a useless piece of paper to placate a few elderly pipe dreamers. I reckon the electorate will crucify him in June.

westtip

marno21 wrote: »

He could have gone back to his constituents with a greenway and N17 dualling project. But no.

Yep if he had asked for dc to sligo for the N17 in the programme for Govt, it would have transferred to the NDP, the greenway was a shoe in of an idea with the support of all three Galway East TDs and the fact the govt want West on Track consigned to history. He will have his piece of paper in his hand but it won't be "peace in our tuam" I reckon he could get slaughtered for his pathetic performance. Probably won't be he has the touch of the Jacky healys/Michael Lowrys about him, although at least they do represent their constituencies and don't fight for the interests of the chambers of commerce in Claremorris.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

Yep if he had asked for dc to sligo for the N17 in the programme for Govt, it would have transferred to the NDP, the greenway was a shoe in of an idea with the support of all three Galway East TDs and the fact the govt want West on Track consigned to history. He will have his piece of paper in his hand but it won't be "peace in our tuam" I reckon he could get slaughtered for his pathetic performance. Probably won't be he has the touch of the Jacky healys/Michael Lowrys about him, although at least they do represent their constituencies and don't fight for the interests of the chambers of commerce in Claremorris.

Galway east has a history of being unforgiving when it comes to not delivering for constituents. I reckon we will see the last of Sean Canney next time around.
Still, he won't starve; I'm sure they'll look after him in Claremorris.

eastwest

So it looks like this thread will soon be redundant.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/varadkars-116bn-masterplan-revealed-four-new-luas-lines-an-atlantic-corridor-and-500000-new-homes-36609590.html

Isambard

hmm, light rail for Cork....

Muckyboots

eastwest wrote: »

So it looks like this thread will soon be redundant.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/varadkars-116bn-masterplan-revealed-four-new-luas-lines-an-atlantic-corridor-and-500000-new-homes-36609590.html

The cronyism is always in the detail. " Case by case" on "smaller capital spends" and the promise of an appraisal of the WRC will give WOT something to crow about.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

So it looks like this thread will soon be redundant.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/varadkars-116bn-masterplan-revealed-four-new-luas-lines-an-atlantic-corridor-and-500000-new-homes-36609590.html

Under the Transport section in that Indo article see WOT's not there:

ROADS, trains and planes all feature in the plan, with the M20 motorway and Atlantic Corridor linking Donegal to Sligo and Tuam among the priority projects.

Investment in regional and local roads will rise substantially over the next decade, with a spend totalling €4.5bn.

Dublin Bus will get money for new routes while the long-delayed Metro North will finally ensure a direct rail service from the city centre to the airport.

While works are unlikely to begin within the 10-year timeframe, advanced planning will take place for Luas extensions to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg.

Cork is to get its own light rail system, while Dublin Airport will get a second runway.

Mind you this is all conjecture, Sean Canney may still have his promise of a report!!!!!