Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Grandeeod

Harcourt Street wrote: »

The pushback against WOT and Western Development in general hasn't just started. It has been ongoing for many years. At times it's been very personal and vicious towards those of us who see the west as far more than just a tourist hinterland.

I'll bring you back to April 2004. A reasoned argument was released to the media advocating that the WRC should not proceed. Do your own research on who it was. I couldn't be bothered. This particular media release kick started the debate you are having here and the threads to do it in. The authors of the media release were subjected to personal abuse on these very forums, both in public and via PMs. Furthermore some of them had hate mail sent to them via email and actual post. Crank phonecalls to a known landline and a death threat to one particular persons wife also followed. All reported to the Gardai and nobody ever found responsible.

The official reps such as WOT got personal by making stupid comments in the media about the detractors being D4 people not caring about the west of Ireland. None of the detractors involved lived or had connections with D4. In fact all of them lived outside of Dublin county. The diatribe that was fired around by WOT reps and supporters was far more personal than anything you could claim has disgraced the Greenway campaign. I can only imagine if social media platforms were available back then, the utter chaos that would have ensued.

Harcourt Street

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'll bring you back to April 2004. A reasoned argument was released to the media advocating that the WRC should not proceed. Do your own research on who it was. I couldn't be bothered. This particular media release kick started the debate you are having here and the threads to do it in. The authors of the media release were subjected to personal abuse on these very forums, both in public and via PMs. Furthermore some of them had hate mail sent to them via email and actual post. Crank phonecalls to a known landline and a death threat to one particular persons wife also followed. All reported to the Gardai and nobody ever found responsible.

The official reps such as WOT got personal by making stupid comments in the media about the detractors being D4 people not caring about the west of Ireland. None of the detractors involved lived or had connections with D4. In fact all of them lived outside of Dublin county. The diatribe that was fired around by WOT reps and supporters was far more personal than anything you could claim has disgraced the Greenway campaign. I can only imagine if social media platforms were available back then, the utter chaos that would have ensued.

Googled that one a long time ago. Anyway I don’t have anything to do with WOT and certainly wasn’t discussing it at the time in 2004. Too busy bringing up small children as it happens. What I do know is the WRC opposition led to the ultimate emasculation of Platform 11. Key individuals left over that issue. Up to that point it was a strong and united team, making a positive impact.

Harcourt Street

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Which raises a valid question; if such a cyclepath can go anywhere then why must a cyclepath go via the old railway track bed? Why this one? Why not have one along the N17? What is the special interest in cycling from Athenry to Colloney?

Don't get me wrong, a cyclepath is a great community asset to have for any neighbourhood. However it is odd to expect that one such as this is going to hand back it's route to a railway should it be required, assuming that it's the goldmine that we are led to believe. The sceptical gricer inside of me wonders aloud.

This +1000.

It seems odd to me that it has to be the railway track or nothing in Tuam for the Greenway campaigners. Indeed they have invented the acronym ATM for Athenry Tuam Milltown Greenway. If anyone thinks after all the exaggerations of Athenry Ennis passenger numbers and Facebook pages with cross dressers Etc that the Greenway campaigners will quietly hand back the railway line if a train service gets introduced I would suggest googling Comber Greenway and BRT to see what happens next.

BowSideChamp

Harcourt Street wrote: »

This +1000.

It seems odd to me that it has to be the railway track or nothing in Tuam for the Greenway campaigners. Indeed they have invented the acronym ATM for Athenry Tuam Milltown Greenway. If anyone thinks after all the exaggerations of Athenry Ennis passenger numbers and Facebook pages with cross dressers Etc that the Greenway campaigners will quietly hand back the railway line if a train service gets introduced I would suggest googling Comber Greenway and BRT to see what happens next.

Google Comber Greenway - are you gonna get that on your headstone??

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

I would say that it would be far easier to achieve that on the Athlone Mullingar line which used to be double track than on the WRC which is single line, but having said that it would not be too expensive to implement as part of a rebuild if it was ever needed.

Why would it be too expensive? The current track and entire trackbed would have to come up if a railway was to be relaid, why would it be so expensive to put a tarmac track alongside what would be an entirely new railway.

The greenway "phase one" could be put down on the existing track bed, which as we all know is not fit for purpose as a railway, then in say 30 years time the kind of scene could be created if a railway is ever going to be laid. The route would still be owned by irish rail. the greenway phase one would have paid for itself many times over in the economic activity it had created (estimated payback time for a greenway is about four years). It is a net win/win for the State, the route remains protected when the railway is needed or can be justified - in say about 30 years time, the railway is relaid on an entirely new trackbed and a modest tarmac track and fence if deemed necessary is laid in alongside. What is not to like about this idea.

Grandeeod

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Googled that one a long time ago. Anyway I don’t have anything to do with WOT and certainly wasn’t discussing it at the time in 2004. Too busy bringing up small children as it happens. What I do know is the WRC opposition led to the ultimate emasculation of Platform 11. Key individuals left over that issue. Up to that point it was a strong and united team, making a positive impact.

Wrong. Totally wrong. So wide of the mark that its laughable. I genuinely thought I was engaging with an informed person.

Losty Dublin

Harcourt Street wrote: »

This +1000.

It seems odd to me that it has to be the railway track or nothing in Tuam for the Greenway campaigners. Indeed they have invented the acronym ATM for Athenry Tuam Milltown Greenway. If anyone thinks after all the exaggerations of Athenry Ennis passenger numbers and Facebook pages with cross dressers Etc that the Greenway campaigners will quietly hand back the railway line if a train service gets introduced I would suggest googling Comber Greenway and BRT to see what happens next.

ATM is somewhat apt given how this is viewed by a few to be some sort of a cash cow. Perhaps they are getting the words "Back" and "Way" mixed up?

monument

Warning to all;

The sniping on both sides need to stop.

— moderator

westtip

westtip wrote: »

Why would it be too expensive? The current track and entire trackbed would have to come up if a railway was to be relaid, why would it be so expensive to put a tarmac track alongside what would be an entirely new railway.

The greenway "phase one" could be put down on the existing track bed, which as we all know is not fit for purpose as a railway, then in say 30 years time the kind of scene could be created if a railway is ever going to be laid. The route would still be owned by irish rail. the greenway phase one would have paid for itself many times over in the economic activity it had created (estimated payback time for a greenway is about four years). It is a net win/win for the State, the route remains protected when the railway is needed or can be justified - in say about 30 years time, the railway is relaid on an entirely new trackbed and a modest tarmac track and fence if deemed necessary is laid in alongside. What is not to like about this idea.

Please read my post again.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

Please read my post again.

Just have! its getting late you know how it gets! see what you mean. WT

westtip

Harcourt Street wrote: »

This +1000.

Ithe Greenway campaigners will quietly hand back the railway line if a train service gets introduced

It won't be theirs to handback. it will remain in the ownership of Irish rail - what part of the legal arrangement Irish Rail intend having about this don't you quite understand, perhaps you should talk to the crowd in Kiltimagh who have signed a 12 year lease with irish Rail to have the line for the velorail project (supported may I add by West on Track) of course the line they are leasing is totally unfit for use by trains today but nevertheless the legal position of Irish Rail is quite clear. The rail company continues to own the route. If a greenway happens the route will actually be leased to the local authority ie in the case the ATM route Galway county council. Ergo: the only group that could block the route becoming a railway with potentially a parallel greenway put in when the railway is re-opened again is the county council. Is that what you fear?

What part of this legal arrangement do you have difficulty with or is it just a personal issue you have about what happened in NI. BTW it is precisely because of the case study you mentioned that Irish Rail have copper fastened legal arrangements for such eventualities.

It is of course impossible to impress the facts on people, nevertheless you ought to examine the irish rail agreement with Meath county council about the Navan railway, when you have got a copy of that. Do an FOI it is quite easy you may just understand the facts of the matter.

I know some people may have difficulty understanding the facts as they are laid out, but it helps if you acquaint yourself with them.

Hey ho

Harcourt Street

I think you mistake the term “don’t you understand” with “you don’t agree with me”.

Writing such patronising rubbish won’t work on me. Hey ho.

westtip

Harcourt Street wrote: »

I think you mistake the term “don’t you understand” with “you don’t agree with me”.

Writing such patronising rubbish won’t work on me. Hey ho.

Actually old chap I wasn't patronising anyone and don't seek to make anything personal, it is clear we don't agree. It is also clear I am right about the arrangements irish rail have with the local authorities through which the greenway will run because the documents are there for all to see, but if you insist on believing otherwise that is entirely up to you my dear boy.

Harcourt Street

westtip wrote: »

Actually old chap I wasn't patronising anyone and don't seek to make anything personal, it is clear we don't agree. It is also clear I am right about the arrangements irish rail have with the local authorities through which the greenway will run because the documents are there for all to see, but if you insist on believing otherwise that is entirely up to you my dear boy.

Let’s be clear; I don’t treat any of your posts as personal - never have - yes we don’t agree but life is too short.

There are one or two individuals here who have to go below the belt and seem always to get away with it but you aren’t one to attack me personally so there you go. Doubt we will ever agree on wrc but what I say to you on this matter is entirely without rancour.

westtip

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Let’s be clear; I don’t treat any of your posts as personal - never have - yes we don’t agree but life is too short.

There are one or two individuals here who have to go below the belt and seem always to get away with it but you aren’t one to attack me personally so there you go. Doubt we will ever agree on wrc but what I say to you on this matter is entirely without rancour.

here here!

Accidentally

Accidentally wrote: »

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense. The idea of big boys trainsets or trainspotters gets put about by anti rail propagandists. The reality of the railway campaign is actually about providing infrastructure to enable jobs in the West rather than wasting infrastructure on a cycle track that will never be given back for rail if taken. Google Comber Greenway and Sustrans for more detail.

Okay then. So what exactly is going to use a line from Tuam to Athenry, and when?

BTW, I'm not pushed on the cycle route one way or the other. I'd be much more interested in a Tesco to give O'Tooles a bit of competition

I would still like to know what exactly you see using the line from Tuam to Athenry and when.

I've no link with any cycling, road, rail or tourism groups, I'm just one of the people who crosses the line a few times each day .

Muckyboots

CrabRevolution wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

if a greenway would bring those communities together, then surely the building of it would also? surely then, they could have already got together and had a greenway up and running on a new route a long time ago, if a greenway would really bring them together?

I'm only a lurker in this thread, but have to say this is one of the most bizarre and nonsensical arguments I've ever seen on boards.

Monsignor Horan started it.

Muckyboots

CrabRevolution wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

if a greenway would bring those communities together, then surely the building of it would also? surely then, they could have already got together and had a greenway up and running on a new route a long time ago, if a greenway would really bring them together?

I'm only a lurker in this thread, but have to say this is one of the most bizarre and nonsensical arguments I've ever seen on boards.

Monsignor Horan started it.

eastwest

Muckyboots wrote: »

Monsignor Horan started it.

You may have just put your finger on the nub of the entire debate.
One clergyman, contrary to what anyone believed, brought an airport to the top.of a hill in mayo. The power of the collar conquered logic and government planning.
So when another clergyman got behind a small group of dreamers, the impossible suddenly seemed possible. It's the priests that solve our problems, you see.
Except that things aren't that simple nowadays, we can no longer print a few extra Punts to pay for grandiose plans.

Harcourt Street

eastwest wrote: »

You may have just put your finger on the nub of the entire debate.
One clergyman, contrary to what anyone believed, brought an airport to the top.of a hill in mayo. The power of the collar conquered logic and government planning.
So when another clergyman got behind a small group of dreamers, the impossible suddenly seemed possible. It's the priests that solve our problems, you see.
Except that things aren't that simple nowadays, we can no longer print a few extra Punts to pay for grandiose plans.

Actually we have a new religion in Ireland now. It's called the cult of the car.

Woe betide any heretic who dares to speak out in favour of non car or non bus transport for they will be condemned from the pulpit of populist opinion. Those heretics will be named and shamed. Those heretics will be cast out, like the lepers they are.

Harcourt Street

Accidentally wrote: »

I would still like to know what exactly you see using the line from Tuam to Athenry and when.

I've no link with any cycling, road, rail or tourism groups, I'm just one of the people who crosses the line a few times each day .

I've debated it at length here in the past. Search for Wagon360. Search also for the Irish Railway Developments blog on the web. I know the guy who writes it and he is very insightful (no it's not me) and is well regarded in the railway industry.

eastwest

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Actually we have a new religion in Ireland now. It's called the cult of the car.

The fact that the NDP didn't move to block one-off housing on the countryside shows that they see the future as electric car transport for rural Ireland.
Rail doesn't meet the needs of the scattered population in the towns along the western rail trail, and it is clear that government recognises that.
We might wish it were otherwise, but we have to deal with reality. We won't see rail use on this route unless there is major demographic change, so we have to decide whether to let an existing publicly owned asset decay or find an interim use for it that will benefit these communities and may even help to grow them.
One thing is sure, government won't build a railway until there is demand. They just don't put in the infrastructure until there is a need for it.

Harcourt Street

eastwest wrote: »

One thing is sure, government won't build a railway until there is demand. They just don't put in the infrastructure until there is a need for it.

And that precisely is where they go wrong. Planning ahead and setting out towns and suburbs needs to happen. Otherwise you have more of what we have had in Ireland since the mid 1950s of developer led schemes and unrestricted development of one off houses based around the assumption that people will simply drive to where they want to go.

The NDP goes some of the way towards fixing that mentality but sadly our politicians can't get away from good old Late Late Show economics, i.e. there's one for everyone in the audience.

eastwest

Harcourt Street wrote: »

And that precisely is where they go wrong. Planning ahead and setting out towns and suburbs needs to happen. Otherwise you have more of what we have had in Ireland since the mid 1950s of developer led schemes and unrestricted development of one off houses based around the assumption that people will simply drive to where they want to go.

The NDP goes some of the way towards fixing that mentality but sadly our politicians can't get away from good old Late Late Show economics, i.e. there's one for everyone in the audience.

Yes, but communities that thrive are the ones that understand this reality and work with it.
Others grumble that there is no vision, while letting progressive regions hoover up all the investment. Compare Waterford to Galway in this respect.
As long as I remember, there is talk about 'saving the west' but nothing has happened except a bundle of reports from rearward-looking bodies like the WDC. Nobody seems to be able to move forward, to use what we have to build on, and then to build further as one thing becomes successful.

Accidentally

Harcourt Street wrote: »

I've debated it at length here in the past. Search for Wagon360. Search also for the Irish Railway Developments blog on the web. I know the guy who writes it and he is very insightful (no it's not me) and is well regarded in the railway industry.

The only thing I can find there is about a freight hub in Claremorris. Is that it?

I don't remember seeing anything freight wise in Claremorris, and I'd go through there fairly often. I'm also a bit mystified as to what the demand would be and why it can't go via Athlone. It's not as if the line to Athlone is busy

Harcourt Street

Accidentally wrote: »

The only thing I can find there is about a freight hub in Claremorris. Is that it?

I don't remember seeing anything freight wise in Claremorris, and I'd go through there fairly often. I'm also a bit mystified as to what the demand would be and why it can't go via Athlone. It's not as if the line to Athlone is busy

I haven't time to go through the entire blog for your benefit, but there is a lot of stuff there if you look.

Quick look and there's this.

The Draft National Planning Framework highlights the strategic importance of the proposed Atlantic Economic Corridor for the West of Ireland but the document only speaks of the AEC as a motorway link. The motorway is only one component of the proposed Atlantic Economic Corridor which has the potential to completely transform how we do business and lead our lives.

The Atlantic Economic Corridor (AEC) was conceived as a joint project by several Chambers of Commerce in major towns in the west of Ireland. The AEC would link up Belfast to Cork along an arc running through Derry, Letterkenny, Sligo, Galway and Limerick. Along the way we have five major airports and major sea ports. Some may think it is merely a case of building a motorway between all of these cities and towns but the AEC is much more than that.

The Belfast to Derry railway, long neglected is now enjoying a renaissance thanks to a more frequent and faster train service and the prospect of a major new transport hub in Derry on the site of the old Victorian Waterside station. The railway line from Limerick to Galway re-opened to passenger traffic in 2010 and is now enjoying in excess of 250,000 passengers per year. Between these points lies the currently closed Athenry to Sligo railway line, and a closed railway link exists between Foynes deep sea port and Limerick. The AEC proposals include the re-opening of these railway lines to allow passengers and freight to travel along the west coast right up to Sligo. But these lines could go further and revolutionise transport across all of Ireland.

Key counties like Fermanagh and Donegal have been without railway connections for generations. The roads in these counties have not improved significantly since the mass railway closures. It is no accident that the British Government chose Enniskillen as the venue of the G8 summit. After all, if is already difficult to travel to a place then it follows that protests will be minimised! The AEC is specifically intended to link all of these places, but improved rail and road connections are not enough.

A clear plan to develop and expand towns served by the AEC road and rail links is vital if we are to avoid the sprawl of one off housing and shopping parks located away from our town and city centres. A rethink in the Republic in particular of one-off housing and developer-led town sprawl is necessary for the proposals to achieve all of their objectives.

A recent article in the Irish Independent by the writer Carlo Gebler highlighted the heavy use of the Sligo railway line by commuters to Dublin. Incredibly the article claims that Iarnród Éireann were only using ticket office and not including ticket machine data to measure passenger numbers and that passenger surveys appeared to be only undertaken mid week mornings in November. If these claims are true it would seem that passenger numbers are being deliberately under-estimated. Is this to justify closures?

Our airports could be better served by non-road transport. All of Northern Ireland’s main airports, Belfast City, Belfast International and City of Derry all have railway lines running next to them. Rail services should stop at the airports to allow faster onward connections. Knock Airport and Shannon have nearby rail connections. These airports must have rail connections also, as this will encourage more passengers to use them. The National Transport Authority’s assessment that only the proposed Metro North railway is sufficient to meet Dublin Airport’s transport needs in the future is flawed; their Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy does not take into account the wider national catchment of Dublin Airport. I welcome the words in the introduction to the NPF that a Heavy Rail option to Dublin Airport should also be considered. Bringing Heavy Rail as well as Metro North to Dublin Airport would transform Inter City rail services, as this would allow air passengers to take trains directly to and from Dublin Airport to any rail connected town or city in Ireland.

The NPF as it stands appears to deliberately avoid discussing railway connections between the major towns and cities apart from connections to Dublin. There are direct rail connections between Waterford, Limerick and Galway and an indirect route between Cork and Limerick. These connections are not mentioned at all in the NPF, instead we are told that there will be enhanced road connections. Ireland is already in breach of EU carbon emission targets. Eliminating non-Dublin railway links will make this situation far worse. It is frankly incredible that a policy document would ignore a whole method of transport. What is required for the Ireland of 2040 is a combination of both road and rail connections. This is the norm in other European countries, Ireland is not a special case that justifies the virtual elimination of our railway system.

We have to get out of the uniquely Irish mentality that railways are slow and no longer necessary. This is never the case but there are many voices out there who want to cannibalise our railways into greenways to ensure the railway lines will never come back. We need to fight back against this kind of groupthink and have the courage to re-engineer Ireland as a strong and vibrant place that can handle both population expansion in a methodical way and meet the inevitable challenge of Brexit.

Source: https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/2018/01/12/the-atlantic-economic-corridor-is-more-than-just-a-motorway/

eastwest

Accidentally wrote: »

The only thing I can find there is about a freight hub in Claremorris. Is that it?

I don't remember seeing anything freight wise in Claremorris, and I'd go through there fairly often. I'm also a bit mystified as to what the demand would be and why it can't go via Athlone. It's not as if the line to Athlone is busy

There is no extra freight business in Claremorris that would justify a second freight line to mayo. In fact, a report commissioned by the wdc a couple of years back said as much.

westtip

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Actually we have a new religion in Ireland now. It's called the cult of the car.

.

I think it is more the cult of the self, consumerism, and nihilism. Re the reliance on the car; if you live in the west of ireland a car is a necessity not a luxury. A train line from Athenry to Tuam won't change this. Try catching the train from Tuam to Lidl and if you live in the sticks try getting to the railway station without a car, and sure if you have a car why bother going to the railway station. This won't change even if you have a train every 15 minutes from Tuam to Galway.

You see this is the problem West on Track actually face. Despite their seemingly disproportionate political influence they have at the moment with the Claremorris TD Sean Canney in and out of the Transport Ministers office everyday and no doubt lunching in the canteen most weeks, there is simply no demand for the railway and despite trying to massage the figures the failure of Ennis Athenry is not going to help the cause, a report can say what it wants, it won't get the railway line built because in truth nobody is really that interested in it anymore.

Harcourt Street

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Complete and utter nonsense. The idea of big boys trainsets or trainspotters gets put about by anti rail propagandists. The reality of the railway campaign is actually about providing infrastructure to enable jobs in the West rather than wasting infrastructure on a cycle track that will never be given back for rail if taken. Google Comber Greenway and Sustrans for more detail.

Please outline the jobs created by the ennis to Athenry section. You can reference news sources, government press releases or census data, whatever you like, just please provide this information for the first section if this is the justification for building the next section.

marno21

It would also be nice to see the figures of freight in the existing network to Galway and Claremorris that would justify a 100m outlay for a line to provide expansion for this busy freight sector