Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

what_traffic

eastwest wrote: »

Sean Kyne this morning on Galway Bay FM came up with a new excuse for not building a greenway from Athenry to Tuam. He said that the embankment was too high for bikes. He had better get down to Kilmacthomas quick and get the cyclists off the viaduct on the Deise Greenway!

Ya that was good, but I thought Sean's best line in that interview was that if the Clifden Railway line was still in public ownersip today he would be calling for it to be re-instated as a railway line. (Its about 3/4 generations ago since it was sold off) The best part was Keith agreeing with him......

Harcourt Street

Deleted User wrote: »

Please outline the jobs created by the ennis to Athenry section. You can reference news sources, government press releases or census data, whatever you like, just please provide this information for the first section if this is the justification for building the next section.

You know posters can and do come on here and tell a pack of lies about the passenger numbers on the Limerick Galway route and get lots of thanks, anyone else on the other hand gets passive-aggressive posts like these demanding full on breakdowns of numbers of jobs generated etc.

And even if I was your monkey and went off and delivered a full breakdown of data etc. that you are "requiring" some other poster will go "yeah, yer ma" and "atari Jaguar". So, I'm wasting my time trying to persuade posters like you that I am right and you are wrong, you're wasting your time demanding full scale business plans etc. from me. At the end of the day this is just an internet discussion board. I'm free to put out my view and you are just as free to refute it.

Adds: It's because of exam questions like this from posters that the Irish Railway Developments blog was set up. In it there are a series of articles that discuss why investment in rail is a good idea. The blog is at https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wordpress.com/

Yeah, no. That's a cop out

If you're saying it should be built to create jobs, then you should be able to back that up.

There's been a mountain of evidence posted throughout this and the Greenways thread to show the proven benefits in terms of jobs and spend in the local community. This is one of the main points in terms of justifying the Greenway on this route.

There has been no evidence (outside of WOT makey-up stuff that's been shown to be blatant lies) provided to show what benefits there has been from the current, built section in order to justify the next section.

Got any?

serfboard

Harcourt Street wrote: »

And even if I was your monkey and went off and delivered a full breakdown of data etc. that you are "requiring" some other poster will go "yeah, yer ma" and "atari Jaguar".

You're mixing up this forum with After Hours.

Harcourt Street

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, no. That's a cop out

If you're saying it should be built to create jobs, then you should be able to back that up.

There's been a mountain of evidence posted throughout this and the Greenways thread to show the proven benefits in terms of jobs and spend in the local community. This is one of the main points in terms of justifying the Greenway on this route.

There has been no evidence (outside of WOT makey-up stuff that's been shown to be blatant lies) provided to show what benefits there has been from the current, built section in order to justify the next section.

Got any?

The so-called "evidence" you talk about that has been posted has in the most part been accusations of graft by councillors, and lies. Can you please state what "makey-up stuff" has been posted by WOT here? I haven't seen any evidence that they have posted anything here.

Muckyboots

what_traffic wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

Sean Kyne this morning on Galway Bay FM came up with a new excuse for not building a greenway from Athenry to Tuam. He said that the embankment was too high for bikes. He had better get down to Kilmacthomas quick and get the cyclists off the viaduct on the Deise Greenway!

Ya that was good, but I thought Sean's best line in that interview was that if the Clifden Railway line was still in public ownersip today he would be calling for it to be re-instated as a railway line. (Its about 3/4 generations ago since it was sold off) The best part was Keith agreeing with him......

The lucky land owners are doing very well with CPOs in Connemara and fair play to Sean he's looking after their interests well. Wouldn't want to be another lobby in Galway looking for the green gold and a bit of tourism.

Harcourt Street

Harcourt Street wrote: »

The so-called "evidence" you talk about that has been posted has in the most part been accusations of graft by councillors, and lies. Can you please state what "makey-up stuff" has been posted by WOT here? I haven't seen any evidence that they have posted anything here.

Never said WOT posted here

You stated "The reality of the railway campaign is actually about providing infrastructure to enable jobs in the West." Please provide some information on the jobs created by the Ennis to Athenry section in any of the locations where the train stops.

There have been trains running on it since March 2010. That's nearly 8 years. Has it provided any benefit to the towns and villages along its route in terms of jobs and spending in the local economy? If it closed in the morning would it impact those areas in any way?

eastwest

Deleted User wrote: »

Never said WOT posted here

You stated "The reality of the railway campaign is actually about providing infrastructure to enable jobs in the West." Please provide some information on the jobs created by the Ennis to Athenry section in any of the locations where the train stops.

There have been trains running on it since March 2010. That's nearly 8 years. Has it provided any benefit to the towns and villages along its route in terms of jobs and spending in the local economy? If it closed in the morning would it impact those areas in any way?

I heard that Irish rail provided a job in Gort. Apparently it's a handy number that involves a lot of leaning on a gate.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

It would also be nice to see the figures of freight in the existing network to Galway and Claremorris that would justify a 100m outlay for a line to provide expansion for this busy freight sector

There ya go!

http://www.wdc.ie/wp-content/uploads/WDC-Rail-Freight-Study-Final-Report-18-12-15.pdf

A report commissioned by the very pro-rail WDC failed to make a case for a second freight line. Their best case scenario predicted up to one extra train a day, but that a lot of ducks would have to be lined up for that to happen. Essentially, they found no case for the development of the WDC, although a few people halfheartedly tried to spin it as such.
There is a rumour going around that the consultants were told in no uncertain terms to take away the initial draft and do it again, or they wouldn't get paid. It appears they made the mistake of pointing out more suitable alternative uses for the line, and they used the dreaded 'tourism' word.
I'm sure an FOI could unearth both versions of the report!

ohographite

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Never said WOT posted here

You stated "The reality of the railway campaign is actually about providing infrastructure to enable jobs in the West." Please provide some information on the jobs created by the Ennis to Athenry section in any of the locations where the train stops.

There have been trains running on it since March 2010. That's nearly 8 years. Has it provided any benefit to the towns and villages along its route in terms of jobs and spending in the local economy? If it closed in the morning would it impact those areas in any way?

Does this mean that there is no value in maintaining Ennis to Athenry?

ohographite

ohographite wrote: »

Does this mean that there is no value in maintaining Ennis to Athenry?

That would be an ecumenical matter

Harcourt Street

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That would be an ecumenical matter

Or the dreams of some Greenway supporters of closing it down for a bike path compared with the reality of the far larger numbers using the line. Isn’t that right Ted?

eastwest

ohographite wrote: »

Does this mean that there is no value in maintaining Ennis to Athenry?

According to varadkar when he had the transport brief, the building of it was a mistake and wouldn't happen nowadays. However he also said that because it is there and because of the huge investment made in it, it makes more sense to run it and try to make it work to some extent than to close it.
So although the figures don't stack up and there is little value in it, it will probably be kept open even when when various reviews recommend closure.
Government would prefer to throw a few million in subsidies at the line every year compared to the embarrassment of having a relatively new line lying idle.

westtip

Harcourt Street wrote: »

Or the dreams of some Greenway supporters of closing it down for a bike path compared with the reality of the far larger numbers using the line. Isn’t that right Ted?

Nobody in this forum or in the greenway campaign has suggested closing this route, in fact it would be perfect for a parallel greenway in fact I am surprised WOT haven't suggested it. Cycle one way return by train, perfect synergy.

...If Irish Rail would allow the bike on the train, mind you there would be enough room with only about 10 people per train at the moment.

ohographite

westtip wrote: »

Nobody in this forum or in the greenway campaign has suggested closing this route, in fact it would be perfect for a parallel greenway in fact I am surprised WOT haven't suggested it. Cycle one way return by train, perfect synergy.

...If Irish Rail would allow the bike on the train, mind you there would be enough room with only about 10 people per train at the moment.

Interesting idea. Would that be an expensive project?

westtip

ohographite wrote: »

Interesting idea. Would that be an expensive project?

I wouldn't have thought so, see the photo posted up a few posts back, however as with most of these new greenway projects the increased tourism seems to be pointing at about a 4 to 5 year payback (VAT generated, jobs created etc). It wouldn't interfere with the railway and as suggeted it might actually bring the numbers up on the train. It has been suggested in numerous submissions to the department.

ohographite

westtip wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought so, see the photo posted up a few posts back, however as with most of these new greenway projects the increased tourism seems to be pointing at about a 4 to 5 year payback (VAT generated, jobs created etc). It wouldn't interfere with the railway and as suggeted it might actually bring the numbers up on the train. It has been suggested in numerous submissions to the department.

What would happen with bridges over and under the railway that aren't wide enough for the two? Would the greenway need a slope up to the road and back down to the railway in the case of the former, and a footbridge over the road in the case of the latter?

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

There ya go!

http://www.wdc.ie/wp-content/uploads/WDC-Rail-Freight-Study-Final-Report-18-12-15.pdf

A report commissioned by the very pro-rail WDC failed to make a case for a second freight line. Their best case scenario predicted up to one extra train a day, but that a lot of ducks would have to be lined up for that to happen. Essentially, they found no case for the development of the WDC, although a few people halfheartedly tried to spin it as such.
There is a rumour going around that the consultants were told in no uncertain terms to take away the initial draft and do it again, or they wouldn't get paid. It appears they made the mistake of pointing out more suitable alternative uses for the line, and they used the dreaded 'tourism' word.
I'm sure an FOI could unearth both versions of the report!

Yes I heard a draft report the consultant put into them was sent back with a flea in his ear saying take out all this talk of alternative uses fot the closed railway line. I heard some of the greenway campaigners submitted their ideas on the report as part of the consulration process. Must have been that bloke from Sligo.

Doltanian

I have a need to go from Killarney to Galway next week so decided I'd take the train, what an absolute shambles Iarnrod Eireann are, apparently the track between Ennis and Limerick is submerged under water and the line is closed. I was considering buses but the first bus from Killarney to Limerick doesn't leave until 10am so I'd arrive in Galway too late, hence my interest in the train. My only public transport alternative is drive to Mallow (80kms) and take the train to Limerick, changing at Limerick Junction and changing from Train to Bus at Limerick Station.

What absolute stupidity, I'll drive instead but with fuel, road tolls and parking costs I would have preferred to take a train and watch a few tv shows on the iPad and before I knew it I'd just be there. I can't undertand why Irish Rail don't run trains from Galway to Waterford connecting to Cork at Limerick Junction, just use a simple one or two car set and it might be successful. There is a great new Motorway now and I'll use that but Buses are a god damn miserable way to travel for students and people who are poor, you can't type or watch tv etc and they will invariably go to every two horse town off the motorway along the way.

Harcourt Street

Doltanian wrote: »

I have a need to go from Killarney to Galway next week so decided I'd take the train, what an absolute shambles Iarnrod Eireann are, apparently the track between Ennis and Limerick is submerged under water and the line is closed. I was considering buses but the first bus from Killarney to Limerick doesn't leave until 10am so I'd arrive in Galway too late, hence my interest in the train. My only public transport alternative is drive to Mallow (80kms) and take the train to Limerick, changing at Limerick Junction and changing from Train to Bus at Limerick Station.

What absolute stupidity, I'll drive instead but with fuel, road tolls and parking costs I would have preferred to take a train and watch a few tv shows on the iPad and before I knew it I'd just be there. I can't undertand why Irish Rail don't run trains from Galway to Waterford connecting to Cork at Limerick Junction, just use a simple one or two car set and it might be successful. There is a great new Motorway now and I'll use that but Buses are a god damn miserable way to travel for students and people who are poor, you can't type or watch tv etc and they will invariably go to every two horse town off the motorway along the way.

Irish Rail could do so much more with the Waterford Limerick line but they won’t. Decades of a culture of cuts cuts and more cuts means that senior IÉ management frankly don’t have the right attitude and coupled with the blatantly anti rail NTA you have a perfect storm for you trying to simply get from Killarney to Galway.

There needs to be a significant change to how railways are managed. I’ve advocated the abolition of CIE. The rail infrastructure should be handed to TII. The operational side needs to be split into four companies - InterCity, Dublin suburban, Regional (I.e. non Dublin) and Freight.

There is a view in official Ireland that somehow buses are just as good as a train. Frankly they aren’t and as someone who spent chunks of my youth travelling between Donegal and Dublin on buses I 100% agree with you there.

We need to get more investment in railways but to do that we have to tackle the sprawl merchants who want to tarmac everything and encourage ribbon development. We also have to challenge the prevailing anti rail propagandists who would love to close every scrap of rail and turn it into a cycle track.

eastwest

Doltanian wrote: »

I have a need to go from Killarney to Galway next week so decided I'd take the train, what an absolute shambles Iarnrod Eireann are, apparently the track between Ennis and Limerick is submerged under water and the line is closed. I was considering buses but the first bus from Killarney to Limerick doesn't leave until 10am so I'd arrive in Galway too late, hence my interest in the train. My only public transport alternative is drive to Mallow (80kms) and take the train to Limerick, changing at Limerick Junction and changing from Train to Bus at Limerick Station.

What absolute stupidity, I'll drive instead but with fuel, road tolls and parking costs I would have preferred to take a train and watch a few tv shows on the iPad and before I knew it I'd just be there. I can't undertand why Irish Rail don't run trains from Galway to Waterford connecting to Cork at Limerick Junction, just use a simple one or two car set and it might be successful. There is a great new Motorway now and I'll use that but Buses are a god damn miserable way to travel for students and people who are poor, you can't type or watch tv etc and they will invariably go to every two horse town off the motorway along the way.

Dublin coach leaves killarney 7.30 a.m and gets to Arthur's Quay in Limerick at 9.15.
City link leaves linerick at 9.35 and gets to Galway at 11.05.
Book on line ahead of time and it can cost very little. Buses are very comfortable and have WiFi etc.

Quackster

Doltanian wrote: »

I was considering buses but the first bus from Killarney to Limerick doesn't leave until 10am so I'd arrive in Galway too late, hence my interest in the train.

Dublin Coach's service from Killarney to Limerick has early morning departures at 4:30, 6:30 and 7:30. Between Bus Eireann and City Link, there are plenty of connecting options from Limerick to Galway so not that hard to get to Galway by bus at an early hour.

Muckyboots

eastwest wrote: »

Doltanian wrote: »

I have a need to go from Killarney to Galway next week so decided I'd take the train, what an absolute shambles Iarnrod Eireann are, apparently the track between Ennis and Limerick is submerged under water and the line is closed. I was considering buses but the first bus from Killarney to Limerick doesn't leave until 10am so I'd arrive in Galway too late, hence my interest in the train. My only public transport alternative is drive to Mallow (80kms) and take the train to Limerick, changing at Limerick Junction and changing from Train to Bus at Limerick Station.

What absolute stupidity, I'll drive instead but with fuel, road tolls and parking costs I would have preferred to take a train and watch a few tv shows on the iPad and before I knew it I'd just be there. I can't undertand why Irish Rail don't run trains from Galway to Waterford connecting to Cork at Limerick Junction, just use a simple one or two car set and it might be successful. There is a great new Motorway now and I'll use that but Buses are a god damn miserable way to travel for students and people who are poor, you can't type or watch tv etc and they will invariably go to every two horse town off the motorway along the way.

Dublin coach leaves killarney 7.30 a.m and gets to Arthur's Quay in Limerick at 9.15.
City link leaves linerick at 9.35 and gets to Galway at 11.05.
Book on line ahead of time and it can cost very little. Buses are very comfortable and have WiFi etc.

Quackster wrote: »

Doltanian wrote: »

I was considering buses but the first bus from Killarney to Limerick doesn't leave until 10am so I'd arrive in Galway too late, hence my interest in the train.

Dublin Coach's service from Killarney to Limerick has early morning departures at 4:30, 6:30 and 7:30. Between Bus Eireann and City Link, there are plenty of connecting options from Limerick to Galway so not that hard to get to Galway by bus at an early hour.

Plus there's good deals on 10' tablets in PC World with high spec graphics. Perfect for watching TV on buses.

Harcourt Street

Harcourt Street wrote: »

We also have to challenge the prevailing anti rail propagandists who would love to close every scrap of rail and turn it into a cycle track.

I'm a Greenway advocate for the closed section of the wrc but am also a regular rail user..... What label does that attract?

eastwest

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm a Greenway advocate for the closed section of the wrc but am also a regular rail user..... What label does that attract?

Whenever you get that label, pass it on to me. I am also a regular rail user both in Ireland and the UK, but I fail to see the sense in diverting massive slices of taxpayer funds to build railways for a tiny minority of users when there is no business case.
I use railways where they give a fast and frequent service, otherwise I use a car or a bus, but I am by no means anti rail. I am also in favour of using all disused and publicly owned assets for the common good.
And I don't ride a bike around my garden in Dublin 4.

Quackster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm a Greenway advocate for the closed section of the wrc but am also a regular rail user..... What label does that attract?

Join the club!

Muckyboots

Quackster wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm a Greenway advocate for the closed section of the wrc but am also a regular rail user..... What label does that attract?

Join the club!

#metoo

Harcourt Street

Have I wandered into a Hollywood awards ceremony?

dowlingm

westtip wrote: »

Nobody in this forum or in the greenway campaign has suggested closing this route, in fact it would be perfect for a parallel greenway in fact I am surprised WOT haven't suggested it. Cycle one way return by train, perfect synergy.

...If Irish Rail would allow the bike on the train, mind you there would be enough room with only about 10 people per train at the moment.

Parallel rail and trail happening in California at the moment:
http://sonomacounty.ca.gov/Parks/Planning/SMART-Trail/

dowlingm

Accidentally wrote: »

The only thing I can find there is about a freight hub in Claremorris. Is that it?

I don't remember seeing anything freight wise in Claremorris, and I'd go through there fairly often. I'm also a bit mystified as to what the demand would be and why it can't go via Athlone. It's not as if the line to Athlone is busy

The line from Athlone-Portarlington is pretty busy, I believe. Dublin freight, Waterford freight, Galway passenger, Westport passenger all going through that section.