Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Quackster

eastwest wrote: »

The bigger risk to the alignment is the road sections of County Councils. A lot of lost railway alignments around Ireland are as a result of road widening or the removal of bends on roadways. There is a view that it is easier to use this land than to negotiate with private owners.

This. Much of the Tralee/Dingle line, for instance, has been cannibalised over the years by improvement works on the adjacent road. Similarly with the Kenmare line.

Elsewhere old lines have been severed where bridges etc have been taken out to facilitate road widening and it would add significantly to the cost of reopening such lines.

As the concept of greenways didn't exist when these works were carried out, the old lines were considered to have no future value and were therefore considered easy pickings.

Lord Glentoran

Quackster wrote: »

This. Much of the Tralee/Dingle line, for instance, has been cannibalised over the years by improvement works on the adjacent road. Similarly with the Kenmare line.

Elsewhere old lines have been severed where bridges etc have been taken out to facilitate road widening and it would add significantly to the cost of reopening such lines.

As the concept of greenways didn't exist when these works were carried out, the old lines were considered to have no future value and were therefore considered easy pickings.

These were formally abandoned lines in law. You are comparing apples and bananas.

Isambard

Quackster wrote: »

This. Much of the Tralee/Dingle line, for instance, has been cannibalised over the years by improvement works on the adjacent road. Similarly with the Kenmare line.

Elsewhere old lines have been severed where bridges etc have been taken out to facilitate road widening and it would add significantly to the cost of reopening such lines.

As the concept of greenways didn't exist when these works were carried out, the old lines were considered to have no future value and were therefore considered easy pickings.

In fairness much of the T&D was a roadside tramway rather than having it's own alignment. Road widening has taken it's toll, but also access to the many new houses built would make it impractical to re-open anyway.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

These were formally abandoned lines in law. You are comparing apples and bananas.

the line from claremorris to Collooney is officially closed and not abandonned, how do you explain the inactivity from the railway lobby when it comes to encroachment on that line? Forget Irish Rail they have no real interest in the line as a railway line in the future, the only group that actively had an interest in it becoming a railway was west on track and they did nothing to stop the encroachment, nothing. Why? perhaps someone could let us know.

eastwest

westtip wrote: »

the line from claremorris to Collooney is officially closed and not abandonned, how do you explain the inactivity from the railway lobby when it comes to encroachment on that line? Forget Irish Rail they have no real interest in the line as a railway line in the future, the only group that actively had an interest in it becoming a railway was west on track and they did nothing to stop the encroachment, nothing. Why? perhaps someone could let us know.

Because they know it will never be a railway?

devnull

Thread Cleaned up

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Irish Steve

I am going to live dangerously, but it's reached that point where someone outside of "the system" has to say something, and it will be better for someone that's not a moderator of this forum to put up a post of this nature.

For technical reasons, this thread has almost reached it's size limit, so it will end up being closed in the relatively near future. Given that it seems to have become the playground of a very small minority, and has almost no connection with commuting, or transport, could I please ask that this thread and the replacement for it gets moved to somewhere more appropriate like maybe the regional West forum.

The blunt reality is that even if the tracks being talked about were still active, which is very much not the case, they would be of very little use for commuting, as a meandering single track low speed line that wanders around some of the lowest population density in the country is unlikely to be of much real use for commuting, and if the usage and income figures being reported for the Ennis to Athenry section of the southern section are anything to go by, there won't be a significant number of people ever likely to use it for transport either, and it will never be able to make any sort of contribution to the massive cost of reinstating it to usability.

Yes, the verbal machinations of some of the combatants in this thread are at times more than mildly amusing, but the harsh reality is that there are a host of other areas of the rail network crying out for additional investment ahead of this anachronistic relic of a former time that has very little relevance to modern requirements.

Some of the flights of fantasy about the potential future usage are even more nebulous, and what's even more concerning is that some of the participants really believe in their vision for it. If we were still living in the Ireland of 1918, then it might have some potential, but the Ireland of 2018 is a very different place to the Ireland of a century ago.

There is a very real possibility that with the advent of improved electric power vehicles, and the requirement to reduce carbon emissions, the rail networks will have to change dramatically. A much more appropriate use of limited resources would be to look at plans to build electric high speed tracks on the alignment of some of the motorways, so that longer distance travel could be done at higher speeds and with appropriate links along the route to traditional road vehicles, albeit electric powered, but for both passenger and freight services. The new rail links could very easily be used for both, using the intermediate points as drop off points for things like supermarket deliveries and the like that use diesel powered trucks at present.

Yes, that sort of advanced thinking will for sure upset the traditional rail only supporters, who seem to be unable to recognise that things have to change massively going forward if any form of heavy rail is going to survive. Ireland does not have enough heavy industry to justify the sort of freight systems that operate in other places, but we do send massive numbers of 40Ft trucks over very long distances to distribute everything that's needed for modern living. There's no good reason why a significant part of that distribution could not be done using updated freight handling systems that would use rail for substantial portions of the journey.

That however is not a subject for commuting and transport, some of it is very much infrastructure, so the more I look at it, the more I realise that this thread in this forum has served it's purpose, and really needs to be given a dignified send off as it reaches the natural end of life.

Well there is a dedicated rail sub-forum that it should probably be placed, or put out of its misery.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1499

Lord Glentoran

Irish Steve wrote: »

I am going to live dangerously, but it's reached that point where someone outside of "the system" has to say something, and it will be better for someone that's not a moderator of this forum to put up a post of this nature.

For technical reasons, this thread has almost reached it's size limit, so it will end up being closed in the relatively near future. Given that it seems to have become the playground of a very small minority, and has almost no connection with commuting, or transport, could I please ask that this thread and the replacement for it gets moved to somewhere more appropriate like maybe the regional West forum.

The blunt reality is that even if the tracks being talked about were still active, which is very much not the case, they would be of very little use for commuting, as a meandering single track low speed line that wanders around some of the lowest population density in the country is unlikely to be of much real use for commuting, and if the usage and income figures being reported for the Ennis to Athenry section of the southern section are anything to go by, there won't be a significant number of people ever likely to use it for transport either, and it will never be able to make any sort of contribution to the massive cost of reinstating it to usability.

Yes, the verbal machinations of some of the combatants in this thread are at times more than mildly amusing, but the harsh reality is that there are a host of other areas of the rail network crying out for additional investment ahead of this anachronistic relic of a former time that has very little relevance to modern requirements.

Some of the flights of fantasy about the potential future usage are even more nebulous, and what's even more concerning is that some of the participants really believe in their vision for it. If we were still living in the Ireland of 1918, then it might have some potential, but the Ireland of 2018 is a very different place to the Ireland of a century ago.

There is a very real possibility that with the advent of improved electric power vehicles, and the requirement to reduce carbon emissions, the rail networks will have to change dramatically. A much more appropriate use of limited resources would be to look at plans to build electric high speed tracks on the alignment of some of the motorways, so that longer distance travel could be done at higher speeds and with appropriate links along the route to traditional road vehicles, albeit electric powered, but for both passenger and freight services. The new rail links could very easily be used for both, using the intermediate points as drop off points for things like supermarket deliveries and the like that use diesel powered trucks at present.

Yes, that sort of advanced thinking will for sure upset the traditional rail only supporters, who seem to be unable to recognise that things have to change massively going forward if any form of heavy rail is going to survive. Ireland does not have enough heavy industry to justify the sort of freight systems that operate in other places, but we do send massive numbers of 40Ft trucks over very long distances to distribute everything that's needed for modern living. There's no good reason why a significant part of that distribution could not be done using updated freight handling systems that would use rail for substantial portions of the journey.

That however is not a subject for commuting and transport, some of it is very much infrastructure, so the more I look at it, the more I realise that this thread in this forum has served it's purpose, and really needs to be given a dignified send off as it reaches the natural end of life.

A few years back a thread on the proposal by some to provide a rail connection between Derry and Letterkenny had some interesting comments about electric self-driving cars making rail unnecessary within a relatively short period of time. Some years later we aren’t really that closer to that, but you make some interesting suggestions. I’m not really certain that we will see what you suggest, but it needs a fair wind for a hearing. As a supporter of rail I have always been open to suggestions about moving away from our near exclusive dependence on road transport - given the issues with diesel emissions we will have to fundamentally rethink our dependence on road transport over the next few years.

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

Well there is a dedicated rail sub-forum that it should probably be placed, or put out of its misery.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1499

The rail subforum is a friendly and informative place. With respect, this thread isn’t suitable for that.

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The rail subforum is a friendly and informative place. With respect, this thread isn’t suitable for that.

If you put it that way, then you're correct.

There's a greenway thread on the infrastructure forum, may as well put it there because there will never be a train on it

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a greenway thread on the infrastructure forum, may as well put it there because there will never be a train on it

Never is a long time. Perhaps ‘Never’ will be shorter than you think. Perhaps not.

eastwest

Irish Steve wrote: »

I am going to live dangerously, but it's reached that point where someone outside of "the system" has to say something, and it will be better for someone that's not a moderator of this forum to put up a post of this nature.

For technical reasons, this thread has almost reached it's size limit, so it will end up being closed in the relatively near future. Given that it seems to have become the playground of a very small minority, and has almost no connection with commuting, or transport, could I please ask that this thread and the replacement for it gets moved to somewhere more appropriate like maybe the regional West forum.

The blunt reality is that even if the tracks being talked about were still active, which is very much not the case, they would be of very little use for commuting, as a meandering single track low speed line that wanders around some of the lowest population density in the country is unlikely to be of much real use for commuting, and if the usage and income figures being reported for the Ennis to Athenry section of the southern section are anything to go by, there won't be a significant number of people ever likely to use it for transport either, and it will never be able to make any sort of contribution to the massive cost of reinstating it to usability.

Yes, the verbal machinations of some of the combatants in this thread are at times more than mildly amusing, but the harsh reality is that there are a host of other areas of the rail network crying out for additional investment ahead of this anachronistic relic of a former time that has very little relevance to modern requirements.

Some of the flights of fantasy about the potential future usage are even more nebulous, and what's even more concerning is that some of the participants really believe in their vision for it. If we were still living in the Ireland of 1918, then it might have some potential, but the Ireland of 2018 is a very different place to the Ireland of a century ago.

There is a very real possibility that with the advent of improved electric power vehicles, and the requirement to reduce carbon emissions, the rail networks will have to change dramatically. A much more appropriate use of limited resources would be to look at plans to build electric high speed tracks on the alignment of some of the motorways, so that longer distance travel could be done at higher speeds and with appropriate links along the route to traditional road vehicles, albeit electric powered, but for both passenger and freight services. The new rail links could very easily be used for both, using the intermediate points as drop off points for things like supermarket deliveries and the like that use diesel powered trucks at present.

Yes, that sort of advanced thinking will for sure upset the traditional rail only supporters, who seem to be unable to recognise that things have to change massively going forward if any form of heavy rail is going to survive. Ireland does not have enough heavy industry to justify the sort of freight systems that operate in other places, but we do send massive numbers of 40Ft trucks over very long distances to distribute everything that's needed for modern living. There's no good reason why a significant part of that distribution could not be done using updated freight handling systems that would use rail for substantial portions of the journey.

That however is not a subject for commuting and transport, some of it is very much infrastructure, so the more I look at it, the more I realise that this thread in this forum has served it's purpose, and really needs to be given a dignified send off as it reaches the natural end of life.

That's a good summary of this topic, but there are just a few things to be added, if I may.
First, the concept of railways for slow routes probably has a limited life. Already, virtual railways are being mooted in Asia, where ruibber tyred trains will run on virtual tracks on existing roads, with the 'tracks' created by a combination of signalling and some dedicated paths.
With regards to politicians who support the rail lobby on this route, and the lobbyist's themselves, I often wonder why they don't look at existing examples inn other countries before locking themselves into entrenched positions. The best example I can think of is the old Athens-Corinth line, which eventually died a death because it was so slow that nobody was using it. I recall missing a train once, and running down the track and catching it and being hauled aboard by passengers who were well used to such shenanigans. That's how slow it was in places where crossings occurred as frequently as they do on the Burma Road. I often wonder why the rail lobby hasn't sought a more viable route, using parts of the old alignment but mostly following the N17.
When Greece, like Ireland, lost the run of itself with borrowed money they decided to reopen the route, just as we did with Ennis Athenry. Like us, they were also building a motorway parallel to the route, and they stuck the new railway into the motorway alignment, meaning that a high speed commuter train could service the route. The old route is now abandoned, but there is now talk locally of a cycleway.
The other lesson that is to be learned from Athens Corinth though is that the shining new trains on the route are losing a fortune, priced out of business by bus companies on the new motorway, but that's another story.

Lord Glentoran

eastwest wrote: »

That's a good summary of this topic, but there are just a few things to be added, if I may.
First, the concept of railways for slow routes probably has a limited life. Already, virtual railways are being mooted in Asia, where ruibber tyred trains will run on virtual tracks on existing roads, with the 'tracks' created by a combination of signalling and some dedicated paths.
With regards to politicians who support the rail lobby on this route, and the lobbyist's themselves, I often wonder why they don't look at existing examples inn other countries before locking themselves into entrenched positions. The best example I can think of is the old Athens-Corinth line, which eventually died a death because it was so slow that nobody was using it. I recall missing a train once, and running down the track and catching it and being hauled aboard by passengers who were well used to such shenanigans. That's how slow it was in places where crossings occurred as frequently as they do on the Burma Road. I often wonder why the rail lobby hasn't sought a more viable route, using parts of the old alignment but mostly following the N17.
When Greece, like Ireland, lost the run of itself with borrowed money they decided to reopen the route, just as we did with Ennis Athenry. Like us, they were also building a motorway parallel to the route, and they stuck the new railway into the motorway alignment, meaning that a high speed commuter train could service the route. The old route is now abandoned, but there is now talk locally of a cycleway.
The other lesson that is to be learned from Athens Corinth though is that the shining new trains on the route are losing a fortune, priced out of business by bus companies on the new motorway, but that's another story.

Bit of a circular argument then. Like the thread.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Bit of a circular argument then. Like the thread.

Indeedie, what I cannot take serious though is takng this thread serious, I mean for all of ye, isn't it just a bit of a giggle, like banter down the pub, now and again engaging seriously. I mean come on, are there really people out there who give a fiddlers puck what happens or what is said on this thread?

Lord Glentoran

westtip wrote: »

Indeedie, what I cannot take serious though is takng this thread serious, I mean for all of ye, isn't it just a bit of a giggle, like banter down the pub, now and again engaging seriously. I mean come on, are there really people out there who give a fiddlers puck what happens or what is said on this thread?

It’s the interweb

Rawr

westtip wrote: »

Indeedie, what I cannot take serious though is takng this thread serious, I mean for all of ye, isn't it just a bit of a giggle, like banter down the pub, now and again engaging seriously. I mean come on, are there really people out there who give a fiddlers puck what happens or what is said on this thread?

I sometimes got the impression that WOT cared a bit about the discussion here. The frequency of newly registered posters arriving to counter the greenway argument always made me wonder if these individuals were here on the behest of WOT, or that they were merely ambitious supporters of WOT who wished to do their bit to support their cause.

That is just an impression I had and regardless of why they were here, these individuals did indeed inject in interesting dimension of energy or drama into the discussion...even if it did bring up repeated points.

I have long been a follower of this thread (and the earlier mega thread). I haven't posted often but I have always been interested in following the progress of the old "WRC Question". Should the thread end (since 9999 posts must be the software's upper limit), it will be missed, and I do hope that there will be future thread regarding the progress and fate of this old alignment.

This case has been a fascinating microcosm of infrastructure planning, the legacy of Victorian-era Ireland, the die-hard affection people can have for rail, and of course the incredible effects of local politics in Ireland. I bet this saga may have a book or two worth of material for someone to write one day.

As this might be might my last chance to post on this megalith of a thread, I would like to leave my final words to be; that at the end of this saga I hope that the WRC remains protected in public hands and is ultimately used in a way that benefits people the most.

Zubeneschamali

eastwest wrote: »

Even after the greenway is built, I'd say there will still be talk about a railway.

On the Athlone-Mullingar greenway, the rail enthusiasts forced proponents to leave the old rails in place to maintain the fiction that it might reopen as a railway someday.

Even though the first thing they'd have to do to reopen a railway on the route is pull up the crappy old track and lay a new one.

eastwest

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

On the Athlone-Mullingar greenway, the rail enthusiasts forced proponents to leave the old rails in place to maintain the fiction that it might reopen as a railway someday.

Even though the first thing they'd have to do to reopen a railway on the route is pull up the crappy old track and lay a new one.

That's the thing that has often puzzled me, the obsession with a long pile of scrap iron that has no role or value in the construction of any future railway. Although the rails and sleepers have to be taken up anyway, regardless of what use the route is put to, the rail enthusiasts have made this a red line issue, if you'll excuse the term.
There is zero logic in their position, but their view is so entrenched that in the case of mullingar athlone it was felt that leaving half the old tracks in place would minimise opposition to the greenway, and so it proved.

JCX BXC

Although I have to say it has added to the character of the route.

Zubeneschamali

eastwest wrote: »

in the case of mullingar athlone it was felt that leaving half the old tracks in place would minimise opposition to the greenway, and so it proved.

Half?

The route was single-tracked back in the 1920s sometime.

westtip

eastwest wrote: »

Even after the greenway is built, I'd say there will still be talk about a railway.

Of course we should because the greenway will be protecting the route until such time as a railway is needed and can be afforded, also by the time the greenway opens I will probably have a free travel pass; and will need the parallel railway to take me and my probably electric bike back in the direction I came from.

Build the greenway and then I join west on track for a parallel railway campaign.

westtip

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

On the Athlone-Mullingar greenway, the rail enthusiasts forced proponents to leave the old rails in place to maintain the fiction that it might reopen as a railway someday.

Even though the first thing they'd have to do to reopen a railway on the route is pull up the crappy old track and lay a new one.

funny thing is that this is one rail route I have always been a supporter of to re-open as a railway line, in particular to allow Galway - Dublin trains to come into Dublin via the Sligo line into Connolly, and there may be an argument for a decent commuter service connecting Athlone, Mullingar into Connolly. This kind of service would be of benefit, and the parallel greenway now along the closed railway would prove the two can live side by side. I think the problem is the junction for this route is on the wrong side of the new Athlone railway station, I think it is west of the new town station and sits between the new station and the old Athlone Town station on the Roscommon side which served the Barracks. This route would have been far greater service to the West of Ireland giving greater connectivity to Dublin, had West on Track focussed on this kind of project, or double tracking Dublin Galway, and double tracking Mullingar - Dublin, they would have got the full support of many more people, concentrating on a branch line from Athenry to Claremorris did the West a huge disservice.

Lord Glentoran

I must remember to screenshot posts before they get deleted. #9566

JCX BXC

westtip wrote: »

Of course we should because the greenway will be protecting the route until such time as a railway is needed and can be afforded, also by the time the greenway opens I will probably have a free travel pass; and will need the parallel railway to take me and my probably electric bike back in the direction I came from.

Build the greenway and then I join west on track for a parallel railway campaign.

Disagree, have always said while I support the Greenway, the protecting the alignment stuff is a moot point. A Greenway will never be allow become a railway.

marno21

JCX BXC wrote: »

Disagree, have always said while I support the Greenway, the protecting the alignment stuff is a moot point. A Greenway will never be allow become a railway.

Mostly because they are old abandoned alignments that have little use as railways. If we ever reach the stage where a railway is required between Claremorris and Collooney then it'll be built on a new alignment. The existing alignment is useless.

The only recently closed railway with a greenway proposal is the South Wexford line. The viability of the South Wexford line will be totally killed off when the N25 New Ross bypass opens in 2019.

Lord Glentoran

marno21 wrote: »

Mostly because they are old abandoned alignments that have little use as railways. If we ever reach the stage where a railway is required between Claremorris and Collooney then it'll be built on a new alignment. The existing alignment is useless.

The only recently closed railway with a greenway proposal is the South Wexford line. The viability of the South Wexford line will be totally killed off when the N25 New Ross bypass opens in 2019.

So, what other railways will be

totally killed off

?
Is it surprising then that some of us have fought that particular dismal consensus - and got posts deleted for our trouble?

marno21

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

So, what other railways will be ?
Is it surprising then that some of us have fought that particular dismal consensus - and got posts deleted for our trouble?

Not sure what you're saying here - what I meant is the viability of the South Wexford line will be finally killed when the N25 opens. The journey times to the region the line serves will be drastically improved. One of the main reasons the South Wexford line was supposedly viable was poor road access to the area it served.

It's sad to see lines closing but a certain amount of pragmatism is required too - lines requiring massive subsidy for no real benefit should be rightfully closed. Lines requiring large operating subventions are just placing excess costs on the rest of the economy and the money could be better spent elsewhere (and before anyone says it I'm not saying that railways are the main cause of money being wasted - this applies to the entire Government expenditure)

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

The only recently closed railway with a greenway proposal is the South Wexford line. The viability of the South Wexford line will be totally killed off when the N25 New Ross bypass opens in 2019.

i have saw nothing to prove this. i suspect it will be proven to be wishful thinking.

marno21 wrote: »

Not sure what you're saying here - what I meant is the viability of the South Wexford line will be finally killed when the N25 opens. The journey times to the region the line serves will be drastically improved. One of the main reasons the South Wexford line was supposedly viable was poor road access to the area it served.

which will remain poor. the motor way does not serve the areas.

marno21 wrote: »

It's sad to see lines closing but a certain amount of pragmatism is required too - lines requiring massive subsidy for no real benefit should be rightfully closed. Lines requiring large operating subventions are just placing excess costs on the rest of the economy and the money could be better spent elsewhere (and before anyone says it I'm not saying that railways are the main cause of money being wasted - this applies to the entire Government expenditure)

any money spent on anything could be better spent. the money the railway gets is quite low so the rest of the economy isn't effected and isn't losing much if anything. lines being closed in the 21st century in a modern country are closed due to long term failure to run them properly. closing them is rewarding such behaviour.