Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Niles

I'm not necessarily "anti-WRC" (although I think advocating reopening Claremorris-Sligo is a bit, eh, fanciful!) but would it not be more accurate to give a figure based on (i) through journeys over the Athenry-Ennis section and (ii) journeys originating and/or ending in stations between Athenry and Ennis. Otherwise figures for the already successful Ennis-Limerick section are being lumped in. I presume this figure wouldn't include people using Dublin-Galway trains between Athenry and Galway; at least it shouldn't if it is to give an idea on the success or otherwise of the Athenry-Ennis section.

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

???

Predictive text sorry meant to say every child in both cities on a day outing celebrating school holidays starting.

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

Predictive text sorry meant to say every child in both cities on a day outing celebrating school holidays starting.

:pac:

nicely put

Zoney

dowlingm wrote: »

The reality is that if the current rostered equipment and crews existed between Galway-Athenry and Ennis-Limerick they'd get the same number of journeys if not more, Oranmore might be open WITH A PASSING LOOP and Sixmilebridge WITH A PASSING LOOP and Platform 3 at Galway might exist.

Except that the alternative would likely have been nothing, at least in the West/Midwest.

westtip

Neon-Circles wrote: »

That is utterly farsical juvenile behaviour- dressing up the figures by using Limk-Ennis and Athenry-Galway, thus accounts for 95% of their mystical 250,000 figure

Yes but it is this farce that West on Track will now go bleating to the papers with - with just look quarter of a million users on the Western Rail corridor, c'est tres bizarre.

dowlingm

Zoney wrote: »

Except that the alternative would likely have been nothing, at least in the West/Midwest.

That's a pretty dogmatic statement. All that Galway-Athenry and Limerick-Ennis would be getting is essentially what Cork got with Glounthaune-Midleton - single track with modern signalling/LCs and a passing loop, and less than the now over-specced Dunboyne alignment with its full double track, now god help us all reduced to a shuttle to a bay platform.

But the real problem is the dog in the manger attitude of West on Track which is "give us what we want (Ennis-Athenry), only what we want (Ardrahan and Craughwell tumbleweed infested carparks, not better Galway-Dublin operations) and screw the national interest and that of the system operator". The Government instructed IE to give them the bare minimum and now here we are with limited ability to grow ridership on the busiest parts of the "Corridor" or increase line speeds on the Limerick-Ennis section.

Of course, IE (in their role as infrastructure manager) would help their own case in respect of public confidence in how they are allocating capital spend if they published a multi-year plan for system maintenance and expansion as NRA does. That way, funny business with moving projects up or down would be easily spotted and it would be harder to put projects like Blarney on the indefinite backburner.

dowlingm

Niles wrote: »

would it not be more accurate to give a figure based on (i) through journeys over the Athenry-Ennis section and (ii) journeys originating and/or ending in stations between Athenry and Ennis.

Yes. Welcome to IE corporate communications.

westtip

dowlingm wrote: »

Yes. Welcome to IE corporate communications.

To get the true figures on Ennis Athenry, the Irish Times had to do an FOI on the Department of Transport as IE would not release them for "reasons of commercial sensitivity", I know cos I have asked for them and been told the same, why they won't release them is because they are so f***king embarrassed about the lack of usage, However they file regular reports with the DOT and I have no doubt an updated FOI request has gone into DOT.

The new Quarter of a million is so pie in the sky it is almost laughable - however little doubt the lemmings in the local Western regional press will lap it up and wait for verbatim use of the press release in Western People and Mazo News tomorrow such is the pull of West on Track on the editorial of these two western bastions of truth, Friends of sligomayogreenwaycampaign on facebook is growing....:-)

note added: Well have to admit nothing in the Western People today about the fabled Quarter of a million WRC passengers - which did surprise, perhaps even the Western People is baulking at this one as a credible story. Note added - and even the Mayo News ignored the press release, the national press didn't touch it - I can only hazard at a guess that the intercounty railway board AKA West on Track used the press release to influence councillors to think this is a great success lets press on and support the rest of the WRC, its all about mind control.

rainbowdash

Its raining a lot the last while. Never underestimate the elephant in the room.

D'Peoples Voice

dowlingm wrote: »

IE are saying 250K journeys made Galway-Limerick since opening of WRC.

great news, now can we reduce their subvention accordingly?

westtip

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

great news, now can we reduce their subvention accordingly?

Yes I see the trainspotters are getting very excited over on IRN, and West on Track are taking the campaign on the offensive and trying desperately to fudge the figures. Leo knows the truth though; Press releases from West on Track and Irish Rail do seem to have a canny resemblance don't you think, I wonder if Leo has ever put 2 and 2 together on this one? The figures are as ridiculous as they are contemptible, I have asked Barry K for a breakdown.....but won't sit in waiting in expectation of an answer.....

Just to remind you all:

Freedom of Information Act – information released to the Irish Times from the Department of Transport:

Don Cunningham of Irish Rail – in an Email of 6th October 2010 to the Department of Transport released under the FOI request:

“As regards passenger numbers on phase 1 of the WRC the average number per period (4 weeks duration) since the commencement of the service is 5166. If the first period is excluded this drops to 4,800. This translates into an annual figure of between 62,400 and 67,158 which is well below the 100,000 trip assumed in the business case” I

Ah????? but just look at the recent press release from IE!!!!

“Over 250,000 journeys have been made across the Limerick-Galway route, including the Limerick-Ennis and Athenry-Galway commuter services, since it (WRC) opened on 30th March 2010, and rail bosses are confident that service changes now in place will attract more customers to the route”

somewhere along the line we need to find out - where have all the passengers gone? 65,000 on the WRC phase one bit and 185,000 on the bits at either end of the so called "corridor", JUST ADDING TO THIS POST:

It seems the spin doctors of Claremorris are at it again with the most recent "news" story on their website, it defies belief and they may actually start believing what the write:

http://www.westontrack.com/news245.htm

"We particularly welcome the news that a quarter of a million passengers have travelled on services on the Galway-Limerick route in its first year, availing of commuter and inter-city services"

So they would I think from reading this sentence, with its subtle nuances of how it has changed from the irish Rail press release, would have us believe that the quarter of a million actually travelled between Galway and Limerick, the Masters of spin are failing to deliver though as not a single editor has yet published them....

foggy_lad

westtip wrote: »

Yes I see the trainspotters are getting very excited over on IRN, and West on Track are taking the campaign on the offensive and trying desperately to fudge the figures. Leo knows the truth though; Press releases from West on Track and Irish Rail do seem to have a canny resemblance don't you think, I wonder if Leo has ever put 2 and 2 together on this one? The figures are as ridiculous as they are contemptible, I have asked Barry K for a breakdown.....but won't sit in waiting in expectation of an answer.....

Just to remind you all:

Freedom of Information Act – information released to the Irish Times from the Department of Transport:

Don Cunningham of Irish Rail – in an Email of 6th October 2010 to the Department of Transport released under the FOI request:

“As regards passenger numbers on phase 1 of the WRC the average number per period (4 weeks duration) since the commencement of the service is 5166. If the first period is excluded this drops to 4,800. This translates into an annual figure of between 62,400 and 67,158 which is well below the 100,000 trip assumed in the business case” I

Ah????? but just look at the recent press release from IE!!!!

“Over 250,000 journeys have been made across the Limerick-Galway route, including the Limerick-Ennis and Athenry-Galway commuter services, since it (WRC) opened on 30th March 2010, and rail bosses are confident that service changes now in place will attract more customers to the route”

somewhere along the line we need to find out - where have all the passengers gone? 65,000 on the WRC phase one bit and 185,000 on the bits at either end of the so called "corridor", JUST ADDING TO THIS POST:

It seems the spin doctors of Claremorris are at it again with the most recent "news" story on their website, it defies belief and they may actually start believing what the write:

http://www.westontrack.com/news245.htm

So they would I think from reading this sentence, with its subtle nuances of how it has changed from the irish Rail press release, would have us believe that the quarter of a million actually travelled between Galway and Limerick, the Masters of spin are failing to deliver though as not a single editor has yet published them....

Maybe someone from west on track also works for Irish rail and was asked to release figures but got the press releases for Irish rail and their one for west on track mixed up?

westtip

Ok folks new information to hand. Email released from Irish Rail today shows my estimate of 65,000 for the WRC link bit between Ennis and Athenry was grossly exagerated I apologise for this false and misleading information.....

It gets worse, this is an extract from an email from Irish Rail today:

I am pleased to advise however that a breakdown of these figures for each section is available.

The section Ennis-Athenry as detailed below encompasses Limerick-Galway journeys, and journeys originating / terminating in the new stations between Ennis and Athenry. As some stations are unmanned, not all “free travel” DSP pass journeys will be recorded. This covers the period 30th March 2010 (opening date) to 24th April 2011:


Total: 252,607

Ennis-Athenry: 53,187

Ennis-Limerick: 72,452

Athenry-Galway: 126,968

Just to remind you the business case for the line was based on 100,000 passenger journies per annum. The figures above include the bumper month of the first month with trial usage. The figures as published by the Irish Times following the FOI in March are spot on. I don't think its a failure on Irish Rails part, the truth is the demand for this line just doesn't exist to have justified the capital spend.

You may recall West on Track got all uppity because of the loss of recorded numbers of free travel pass passengers - unless there are literally thousand of oldies and other social ticket holders jumping on the line at unmanned stations I wouldn't get too fussed about the comment re lost numbers.

If anyone wants a copy of the email just PM me.

invinciblePRSTV

So using my extremely basic maths. The number who used the Ennis - Athenry section is 53187 over a period of 56 weeks works out at approximately 950 passengers on the section a week.

Divide this between the 10 services offered over Mon-Sat with 8 services on the Sun = 68 services on the Ennis - Athenry section in a calender week.

So 950 passengers on the Athenry - Ennis section per week divided by 68 is....13.9 passengers per train, which in my moleskin book is a resounding success whichever way you want to look at it :pac:. (please correct me if my maths are wrong).

Could you clarify Foggylad as I'm not sure from your last post, are the numbers mentioned in the FOI relating to all passenger journies, or just passengers who've paid a fare?.

Does this not mean that the subvention required for the WRC will be far above the 2 million euro per annum originally estimated? In otherwords a greater drain on IE when their subsidy is being reduced.

foggy_lad

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

So using my extremely basic maths. The number who used the Ennis - Athenry section is 53187 over a period of 56 weeks works out at approximately 950 passengers on the section a week.

Divide this between the 10 services offered over Mon-Sat with 8 services on the Sun = 68 services on the Ennis - Athenry section in a calender week.

So 950 passengers on the Athenry - Ennis section per week divided by 68 is....13.9 passengers per train, which in my moleskin book is a resounding success whichever way you want to look at it :pac:. (please correct me if my maths are wrong).

Could you clarify Foggylad as I'm not sure from your last post, are the numbers mentioned in the FOI relating to all passenger journies, or just passengers who've paid a fare?.

Does this not mean that the subvention required for the WRC will be far above the 2 million euro per annum originally estimated? In otherwords a greater drain on IE when their subsidy is being reduced.

Your maths is spot on, as for the free passes Only some of those with free travel are counted as those boarding at unmanned stations would not be included in the figures, so we can assume from WOT figures that there are hundreds of thousands of pensioners living adjacent to the unmanned stations on the line.

The question need to be asked now where or how did Irish rail come up with a figure of quarter of a million???

Hungerford

foggy_lad wrote: »

The question need to be asked now where or how did Irish rail come up with a figure of quarter of a million???

Here we go...

To start with, Irish Rail took the WRC figure and then added the figure for one pre-existing 'connecting' line' - Limerick to Ennis - and then took a subset of the figure for the main Dublin-Galway line - journeys between Galway and Athenry.

It gets worse because the segmentation employed allows for triple counting.

If I were to travel the full length of the line, I would be counted three times on my journey - once as a Limerick to Ennis passenger, once as a WRC passenger and once more as an Athenry to Galway one.

I presume that Irish Rail have stripped the Athenry to Galway figures out of the Galway mainline ones to account for their creative accounting, otherwise there would be double counting in the overall national railway figures.

It's the equivalent of counting all journeys from Dublin to Ballybrophy as part of the Nenagh line's passenger numbers.

westtip

Hungerford wrote: »

Here we go...

It gets worse because the segmentation employed allows for triple counting.

If I were to travel the full length of the line, I would be counted three times on my journey - once as a Limerick to Ennis passenger, once as a WRC passenger and once more as an Athenry to Galway one.

I presume that Irish Rail have stripped the Athenry to Galway figures out of the Galway mainline ones to account for their creative accounting, otherwise there would be double counting in the overall national railway figures.

.

I really don't know about the double counting - if it is the case then the figures truly are abysmal, but I think at one stage a few years ago there were figures floating around that Ennis Limerick was about 80,000 journies per annum, but IE did say this in the email

The section Ennis-Athenry as detailed below encompasses Limerick-Galway journeys, and journeys originating / terminating in the new stations between Ennis and Athenry

so no I don't think there is double or even triple counting. my suspicion is the Athenry- Galway number does include Dublin passengers.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

my suspicion is the Athenry- Galway number does include Dublin passengers.

Oh I don't think you need to be suspicious at all, westtip. In fairness to IE I would say that when they were asked "How many passengers travel between Galway and Athenry?" they answered the question honestly and included all journeys between Galway and Athenry.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

So 950 passengers on the Athenry - Ennis section per week divided by 68 is....13.9 passengers per train, which in my moleskin book is a resounding success whichever way you want to look at it :pac:. (please correct me if my maths are wrong).

The more we analyse the numbers, the more the truth is apparent about the waste of money that is this line. Not only that, but, @invincible, the numbers of 14 people per train are even worse than you think because they include the opening period when a lot of people travelled for the novelty value. Then, having realised how slow, expensive and not very useful for commuting the train actually is, reverted to to their previous modes of transport.

Also, these journeys were (mostly) made before the X51 came into being. When you remove Limerick->Galway passengers from the train the effects will be even more dramatic on the numbers.

So what would I advocate now? Build Oranmore station and keep the Galway->Athenry part of the journey. An Oranmore P&R could do well as it can be hell getting into Galway.

Also keep the Ennis->Limerick portion. This was doing quite well, thank you very much, before we starting spending money we didn't have.

Everyone else can use the 51 or X51 buses - and judging by the numbers, train passengers transferring won't overcrowd the buses!

purplepanda

So if this line has similar or lower passenger numbers as is being mentioned here & elsewhere, why are IE opening new stations, introducing more services & wasting more taxpayers money? :eek:

Remind me exactly how much money this line cost to rebuild? :rolleyes:

5 trains a day, each way six days a week & the passenger numbers are abysmal, still at least the line managed to obtain 5 services a day unilke the South Wexford Rosslare to Waterford line which didn't even get a chance before it was closed down to save IE money which as obviously been wasted since!!!!:mad:

Actually six trains a day each way & a Sunday service......!

Time withdraw the service & let WOT find a private train company to run their services like other pressure & passenger groups are trying to do

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

Oh I don't think you need to be suspicious at all, westtip. In fairness to IE I would say that when they were asked "How many passengers travel between Galway and Athenry?" they answered the question honestly and included all journeys between Galway and Athenry.
!

Population is a key issue here, which makes me question the 127,000,

Athenry population (incl outer townlands) is 6217 Galway city population is 73,000 but commuter traffic is 127,000

Ennis population is 25,000 Limerick population is 110,000 and commuter traffic is 72,000

On this basis the natural expectation would be that the commuting figures would be considerably higher for Ennis to Limerick, but the figures are actually somewhat surprising, now I may be wrong

Mind you there are an astonishing 17 trains a day from Athenry to Galway and vice versa, thats right folks 34 trains a day through Athenry - the clapham junction of the west of Ireland so maybe the 127,000 journies a year is feasible - the numbers come out at and again using a 7 day model -12376 trains per annum = 10 passengers per train its going to be a bit more than that as I have not dug down into weekend services etc. but even at 12,000 trains per annum its around the 10/11 passengers per train -Galway Athenry. Of course loadings will be different per time of day. Galway Athenry is well serviced at peak times: with trains at 4.30, 5.30, 6.05 and 6.30 little wonder the corridor trains have given incremental volume athenry galway commuters must be delighted with the service level.

The crux really is this:

If the galway/Athenry figures are 125000 how many journies have been taken on Corridor trains - and are these incremental or have they just lifted passengers off the other galway/athenry (dublin trains) in a cannibalisation of passengers, I guess we really need to know what were the Galway Athenry loadings on the route before they got an extra 6 trains a day trundling up from Ennis - After all if you used to get the 6.05 and can now jump on the 5.30 why not? is this kind of service level really necessary to service Athenry? With a bit of service juggling the commuter market for Athenry/Galway could and should have been catered for with the extant Dublin services, lets face it 10 trains a day on this service should suffice and Ennis Limerick could have been improved. The whole worth of the Corridor is now seriously questionable. 10 trains a day either way = 20 = just over 17 passengers per train average.


The figures however are intriging - any guess at what the Dublin/Galway figures might be at ten trains one way and 9 the other every day?

purplepanda wrote: »

Remind me exactly how much money this line cost to rebuild? :rolleyes:

The generally accepted figure is 106 million.

DWCommuter

So does all this mean that I and my colleagues were right in 2004? Can the Jesuit priest pox that was cast upon me back then be lifted? Will the perverted inbreds that made sinister phonecalls to my home apologise and finally see the error of their ways?

Yippee!

Westtip, you are truly a legend in my household. Well done!

corktina

yes well done to all exposing this fraud.

14 passengers per train at a cost of 106 million...thought id just repeat that....

westtip

Well I can confirm now from another email received from Irish Rail that the figures for Galway-Athenry at 127,000 journies on that route - are confined to that route - the Galway-Dublin numbers are about 1.1 million journies a year which does seem realistic based on the service levels, and overall level of people movement between Dublin Galway. So the 127,000 journies on 34 trains a day on the route is acceptable as a statistic. The issue of how much is incremental due to the increased 5 (now 6) corridor trains per day and how much have corridor trains canninbalised the other trains, is still wide open.

The astonishing service levels on Athenry - Galway have to be put in the context of it only being a 15 minute, effectively shuttle service into Galway - there is no problem with that, but in reality did we need to spend 106 million to provide such a service for Galway - Athenry commuters - probably not, but promoting Athenry as a park and ride, double tracking into Galway, changes in shcedules etc etc may have been money better spent.

The thing is about this current debate is that it is all interesting and challenging stuff and it is important - not to be judgemental without analysing the facts.

As I see it the level of through traffic on the corridor did not justify the line being built.

The increased service levels on Athenry - Galway and on Ennis - Limerick could have been achieved for a far less investment, and improved service levels on the far more Critical Dublin routes from the west and mid west.

That the real performance of the corridor traffic (almost half of what was in the business case) totally and utterly kills off any hope of further extensions to Tuam.

What Irish Rail must fear - is the thought of having to add Tuam-Athenry Services, will trains on this proposed extension be Tuam - Athenry - Galway - or will they be a shuttle Tuam Athenry, get off the train and then get on one of the 34 trains already destined for Galway or will they be "corridor trains" destined for Ennis, Athenry surely then will be the Clapham junciton of the west of Ireland

One thing is for sure there may be a new song:

Twas on a busy station platform
I heard an old priest calling me
westie the trains have taken you away
Its not so lonely on the train in Athenry

All round those platforms of Athenry
The trains do rush from here to there and why
From the north and the south, the east and west.
Those trains do pull into athenry.

westtip

sorry to double post but some further information has been sent to me by IE, again if you want the email me PM me:

The corresponding figures for the same time period 2009-10 pre-the opening of WRC are:

Ennis-Limerick 71,000

Athenry-Galway 121,000 - (but in reality 113,000 -see note below)

Two points are notable

Increases were recorded therefore from 09-10 to 10-11 when most other routes saw a reduction in demand, arising from the continuing recession

The Athenry-Galway figure above includes 8,000 additional journeys which were generated by the Volvo Ocean Race in 2009, meaning the like for like increase would be 113,000 to 127,000.

The Ennis Limerick line lost a 1,000 journies from 72,000 to 71,000 but not bad in the recession to have performed like this - the increase on the Athenry - Galway line - lets accept what IE say about the exceptional increase for the volvo race, was 14,000. If we say this is due to increased service levels provided by the 5 (now 6 extra trains) - the increment is +12% (113000 - 127000) in passenger numbers but +70% increase in service levels (10 trains a day in each direction up to 17 a day) these ratios don't make such good reading. I don't know what the number of trains on Ennis - Limerick was pre WRC someone on this forum must have that somewhere. Have the service levels been increase to tread water on passenger numbers?
I am not blaming Irish Rail for this - in fact I think they have done a pretty good job on the WRC to get traffic to the level it is at, but the reality is - they simply don't have the population on this line to justify these service levels - and somethng somewhere is going to give.

In summary, this is what we now have:

2010 - Ennis Limerick 72000 journies - now at 71000 journies - 1,000 journies lost - but how manyExtra trains added

2010 - Galway Athenry 113,000 journies (excludes 8k Volvo race jouries), now at 127,000 journies. 13,000 journies added but 5 and now 6 trains a day each way added, so a big increase in service levels, for what gain?

2010/11 53,000 journies added on the WRC + 13,000 incrementals on the Galway athenry route (attributed to increased service levels) minus 1000 lost on the Ennis/Limerick route: Total incremental journies on the three linked up bits of the WRC southern branch line: 64,000 journies - business plan case for the line was 100,000 journies the very best that can be said now is that the incremental volume as a result of the 105 million spend and ongoing subvention is 64,000 journies which is by any stretch of the imagination not a success story. I certainly don't blame Irish Rail - in fact I am increasingly having nothing but sympathy for Irish Rail having this political millstone hung around their necks to try and sink them, I think they have been under immense pressure and delviered a phenomenal service (for Ireland) on the Galway- Athenry line and astonishing service levels on the line they were given to operate from Ennis-Athenry, I certainly don't think they will jump for joy if by some miracle the northern branch line gets the go ahead.

popebenny16

kudos to westtip.

flabberghasted. in fact my flabber has never been as ghasted as this :eek:.

appalling, but it does serve one function - its a handy yardstick as to how the last government put a valuation on buying seats in the west.

corktina

the IE apologists are very quiet arent they!

Aard

Wait for the spin.

corktina

Aard wrote: »

Wait for the spin.

thats OK, it will just expose the lack of credibilty of this corridor and its supporters more.

westtip

Aard wrote: »

Wait for the spin.

I am and with a bit of luck tomorrow even more westieleaks will will hit the fan.

westtip

Irish Times today:

Western rail corridor passengers fall short of anticipated numbers

Irish Rail says the first phase of the western rail corridor has recorded “a credible performance” in spite of passenger numbers falling well short of the anticipated numbers, writes Gordon Deegan.

Figures released yesterday by Irish Rail for the route’s first 12 months show that 53,187 passengers travelled on the the new €106 million Ennis-Athenry service.

The numbers fall far short of the anticipated 100,000 in its business case for reopening the line. Irish Rail also said there were 252,607 rail passengers between Limerick and Galway.

Irish Rail corporate communications manager Barry Kenny said: “The business case obviously did not provide for the calamitous recession, which has impacted on demand for all transport due to reduced economic activity”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0610/1224298690086.html

Short piece on page 2 but good to see the the actual WRC numbers going into the national press so people realise that the actual usage of the corridor is well below expectations - I think the sentence about 252,607 passengers is a little misleading, as it doesn't highlight the fact that the claims for quarter of a million passengers on the corridor are based on usage of line that pre-existed and in the main had nothing to do with the spend of 106 million but space may have been short in the article, but at least the headline which is the bit that will catch the eye says it all, and this article will be seen by those that matter and not just internet boards readers. But good to see the real numbers on the Ennis Athenry line going into the press - I guess the press release from WOT refuting the figures is being written at this very moment, or a dear madam letter I am so angry etc....