Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Jamie2k9

Waterford is slowed down by the Kilkenny reversal.

That is partly the reason but its mainly down to poor timetabling. Take last Sundays 18.05 to Dublin.

Secheduled 18.05-20.30
Actual 18.15-20.25 (includes extra 5 mins in Kilkenny due a problem)
So take that out and its 2h 5m for a journey scheduled for 2h 25m.

Think that says it all....See no reason why 10-20 mins can't be knocked off every journey in the 2013 timetable. The timetable department must be guessing times as they are not using signilling data at all!

Victor

The Idyll Race wrote: »

I'm not Mr. McGuckian either.

Let's not go there. At all.

Moderator

corktina

Sponge Bob wrote: »

To be frank that is where I would see the network ending up under Varadkar and with nothing west of Athlone , Limerick Junction and Mallow or south of Kilkenny and Gorey...bar Greenways of course and possibly some Cork Commuter.

you may be partly right, but I can't see Waterford getting knocked off the network or probably Wexford, not to mention Limerick!

Sponge Bob

corktina wrote: »

you may be partly right, but I can't see Waterford getting knocked off the network or probably Wexford, not to mention Limerick!

If Galway goes ( because of buses) then Waterford Limerick Sligo Tralee and Wexford will go. I don't think that people in other towns fully appreciate the penetration that express buses have achieved on the Galway - Dublin route.

Markcheese

Sponge Bob wrote: »

corktina wrote: »

you may be partly right, but I can't see Waterford getting knocked off the network or probably Wexford, not to mention Limerick!

If Galway goes ( because of buses) then Waterford Limerick Sligo Tralee and Wexford will go. I don't think that people in other towns fully appreciate the penetration that express buses have achieved on the Galway - Dublin route.

So convert the train stations to commercial coach stations... Any lines that are any use could become express bus/ coach lanes... Would provide a better service than trains, prob cheaper too...

end of the road

sponge bob.
To be frank that is where I would see the network ending up under Varadkar and with nothing west of Athlone , Limerick Junction and Mallow or south of Kilkenny and Gorey
bar Greenways of course and possibly some Cork Commuter.
thats if he is in power at the next election, if what you believe will close closes thats most of the rail network then, the cork commuter is doing well is it not? i can't see mass closures like what you believe anytime soon to be honest but anythings possible.
sponge bob.
If Galway goes ( because of buses) then Waterford Limerick Sligo Tralee and Wexford will go.
not really, there doesn't seem to be private operators queueing up for these routes, but i could be wrong.
sponge bob.
I don't think that people in other towns fully appreciate the penetration that express buses have achieved on the Galway - Dublin route.
in fairness why would they? unless their any way interested like us here they probably wouldn't care unless they were going to galway and then would think to themselves (god i wish there was something like this to such and such a town where ever they live)
Markcheese.
So convert the train stations to commercial coach stations... Any lines that are any use could become express bus/ coach lanes... Would provide a better service than trains, prob cheaper too...
not going to happen i'd say, the busses would be cheeper to operate but the infrastructure wouldn't be cheep to implement, can't see how a cramped slow bus would provide a better service then the train? compareable yes but not better. people would pay more for a fast train then a slow bus but of course were probably never going to have fast trains in ireland (and i'm not talking bullit trains) 100 mph or more would be perfect. its a sad indightment of this country that a bus can provide a faster service on some routes then a train.

foggy_lad

Markcheese wrote: »

So convert the train stations to commercial coach stations... Any lines that are any use could become express bus/ coach lanes... Would provide a better service than trains, prob cheaper too...

the problem with this idea is that most train stations are in the wrong places and require a taxi or bus or long walk for most people while the buses already have their terminii in town and city centres.

dermo88

end of the road

To be frank that is where I would see the network ending up under Varadkar and with nothing west of Athlone , Limerick Junction and Mallow or south of Kilkenny and Gorey

I think (hope) that is a massive exageration. A more likely (desirable) outcome is the breaking up of CIE. Iarnrod Eireann changes, or it dies, and the changes required have been debated before and done to death and back. Schitzophrenic, contradictory, hypocritical, counterproductive, disjointed Government policies are responsible for the mess.

Outside the cold dead hands of CIE, the railway network has a fighting chance if managed correctly. It needs imagination and vision, it needs courage, and it needs good old fashioned pride. It does not need some old fart in Heuston or Conolly pushing pens and paper waiting for God and a redundancy cheque.

Some cuts are inevitable because of the insanity of Government policy on either side. A state which increases fuel taxes and fares in a recession is in a state of insanity. A state which talks of the environment, green policies and carbon footprints, and does the diametric opposite. You can just imagine the conversation "Shure Jerry, De Petherol and de Dieshel have gone up like, ah musha, they can afford an extra ten percent"

I question their legitimacy (ba$tards, thats all they are). Fine Gael are the toilet cleaners. As for the last Fianna Fail cabinet, they had more interest in the drinks cabinet.

Sorry, thats being too polite. Its effing disgusting.

end of the road

dermo88 wrote: »

end of the road

To be frank that is where I would see the network ending up under Varadkar and with nothing west of Athlone , Limerick Junction and Mallow or south of Kilkenny and Gorey

it was actually sponge bob that said that if i remember rightly, not me. but i agree with you. what do i see going, limerick junction waterford and ballybroaphy, the ballina branch, ennis athenry (they might try get rid of ennis limerick as well) if they were to start on mainlines (now this is probably an exageration but these lines are known to be on IE'S hit list) rosslare greystones or maybe rosslare goarey if were lucky, mallow tralee and maybe longford sligo (even though it is doing well i believe, its known it has been on the hit list since CIE days)
can't see galway going most lightly they will improve things there. waterford, limerick, and maybe westport might be safe to, i'm guilty of thinking that closures were a thing of the past yet in 2010 i was proved wrong so more aren't out of the question.

dermo88

end of the road

I'm guilty of thinking that closures were a thing of the past yet in 2010 i was proved wrong so more aren't out of the question.

I judge by events in other financially pressed countries in the past, such as Spain and Greece. Greece closed all their meter gauge lines in 2010, and they were shuffling around fresh air. They were chronically corrupt, overmanned, inefficient, and if anyone dares compare CIE to that bunch of incompetent lazy nincompoops in OSE, CIE even at their worst was never as bad.

The benchmark for retaining a line is

(a) 50,000 users per annum.
(b) More than 25% costs covered by farebox.

My problem with CIE is that they 'pretend' to improve matters. I do not blame the workforce, I DO blame management.

end of the road

dermo88 wrote: »

50,000 users per annum.

but people have to be attracted to the railway, that is done by marketing, promotion, reasonable fairs, comfortable trains, fast and frequent services, ideally shuttle busses from places to the railway. the problem is that CIE have some rail lines they don't like and wish to close, thats been known for years, however on the likes of rosslare dublin the passengers i believe know this and dispite IE'S best efforts to drive them away they won't leave, some have left, others will leave, some will probably come back.

dermo88 wrote: »

I do not blame the workforce, I DO blame management.

thats the whole point, its management thats wrong, its management that was always wrong, its management that will always be wrong, unless we get someone who really wants to make a difference which i believe won't happen in my lifetime.

dermo88

Everyone knows my opinions. I do have particular contempt for one man in his efforts on behalf of the motor Industry of Ireland. His name is Brendan Ogle, formerly of the ILDA.

westtip

The letters page of the Irish Times has been full of contributors in the past few weeks about cycling tourism the general trend seems to be the public actually want more greenways - and there is support out there for ideas like a Greenway on the WRC. This one today highlights the economic contribution of cycliing tourists - the writer focuses on mountain biking in the NZ. This is a global trend - in particular as the baby boomers look for something they can do into their ageing years - cycle. The referencet to Wales and Scotland - and could have said England too is very simple, our nearest neighbour has seen the huge opportunity these trails give to local tourism markets, we however bury our heads in the sand and deny ourselves a huge opportunity. BTW for rail travel - just imagine if tourists and Dubs alike could take a bike on a train to Collooney then cycle to Achill via the WRC Greenway and Great Western Greenway and back to Westport and get the train home. or do this route vice versa. This is how we need to think, this will benefit rail travel as well - just as I have argued on the existing southern branch line WRC a parallel greenway on the southern branch line would have actually generated more usage of the train and perhaps given a model that could have been applied on the northern branch line.

Sir, – Regarding the return on investment for the Great Western Greenway (September 13th), a recent study in New Zealand showed that “The economic value of mountain-biking in Rotorua has been estimated at five times its annual timber revenue. . .”. These figures are a result of tourists contributing to the local economy through accommodation, and other businesses and services which they avail of while visiting.

This reflects a pattern already observed in Wales and Scotland, both of which have excellent biking facilities. Coillte has invested in recreational facilities in recent years, making great strides to build an infrastructure of high-quality trails (mostly off-road). Apart from the obvious benefits of getting people hiking and biking in our forests, the direct economic benefits are often underestimated or ignored.

In the meantime, there continues to be speculation regarding the sale of Coillte harvesting rights, which would be likely to have impact on the recent trail development. This sale would – in many people’s view – be short-sighted to say the least. In the meantime, those working in tourism near the Greenway can attest to the huge increase in visitor numbers and obvious economic benefits to the region. – Yours, etc,

DAVID McGUINNESS,

Grangebrook Avenue,

Dublin 16.

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/

Millem

I can't foresee any rationalisation of mainline routes in the short to medium term to be honest. One would hope that the medium to long term will bring some kind of economic recovery, whereby rail will experience an increase in patronage (hopefully!)

IMO the ballybrophy - limerick line and Waterford - limerick will undergo cessation in the short term, I just cannot see a business case for their being retained. Perhaps more controversially, I think there is a case for the temporary cessation of services on the wrc (unless patronage can be increased substantially) for the reasons detailed here by other posters. M3 will survive, not because of patronage, but because it's only 7.5km of line and it is reasonable to assume that of the other lines mentioned here, it has the best opportunity for growth.

My feeling re the mainlines is that we will likely see an agressive programme of staff rationalisation and reduction in services, and that any line closure is very unlikely. Station staff will and are being replaced by machines, and this is taking a substantial cost out of IR's business.

In the longer term though it is imperative that IR can prompt some sort of modal shift back to rail, the absence of which will raise real questions of sustainability for future generations.

westtip

This cycling tourism and expansion of greenway network is all one way traffic in the Irish times letters pages: Another letter today about Wicklow - but the economic arguments all apply to any expansion of our cycling network, the inability to recognise that a greenway on the northern WRC is probably now the only option available and the fact it is a proven forumula to generate tourism cash, and it will protect the alignment from further encroachment is grist to the mill: this letter is the latest in the cycling/tourism debate:

A chara, – Would Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar now look at the opening up of the Dublin and Wicklow mountains ranges to allow off-road cycling tourism?

Allowing cyclists to use the Wicklow way and Dublin Mountain Way paths would increase tourism and encourage families to visit and explore this areas These extensive mountain ranges offer some of the most beautiful scenery in Ireland and are close to all tourist arrival points.

Walkers and horse riders have been enjoying these views for years so it’s time to let cyclists from Ireland and abroad do the same.

It only takes a visit to Enniskerry village on a Sunday to see the value that cyclists bring to an area. – Yours, etc,

ROBERT TRENCH,

St Begnets Villas,

Dalkey,Co Dublin.

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224324359745

Victor

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Oh Oh. Only someone around boards a long time would have known about the "Mc" bit. And you registered in July.

The Mc bit was a wordplay on MacGuffin and I should know because I started that long gone thread!

Let's not go there.

Please note that speculating as to someone's identity is against the terms and conditions of the site.

Moderator

Sponge Bob

Meanwhile. The First Half of 2012 has passed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/boost-for-western-rail-corridor-as-new-station-gets-approval-157895.html

Iarnród Éireann corporate communications manager, Barry Kenny, said Crusheen, along with Oranmore station, will open in the first half of 2012.

Oh! and WOT chimed in with

We are confident that the additional new and improved services and connections, together with these new stations, will lead to continued strong growth across the route, leading to further expansion and development in the near future.

Oranmore may open in the first half of 2013. And maybe not. WOT spun around to the Galway Advertiser the next day with even more good news.

By aggregating Athenry - Galway ( all) and Ennis - Limerick (all) and Ennis - Atherny (all) that is.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/40767/new-railway-station-for-crusheen-as-part-of-western-rail-corridor

Galway to Limerick route has proved to be a resounding success accumulating more than 250,000 journeys.

Only if they went via Portarlington lads

westtip

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Oranmore may open in the first half of 2013. And maybe not. WOT spun around to the Galway Advertiser the next day with even more good news.

By aggregating Athenry - Galway ( all) and Ennis - Limerick (all) and Ennis - Atherny (all) that is.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/40767/new-railway-station-for-crusheen-as-part-of-western-rail-corridor


Only if they went via Portarlington lads

Sponge; exactly all back in 2011, 2012 is heading into Q4. The aggregated figures of Athenry - Galway could include folks just passing through on the way to dublin! WOT press releases are now only printed by the likes of the Galway Advertiser - lazy journalism, not even the Western People a stalwart supporter of the WRC pays much heed to them now. The nationals don't print anything they put out in their propaganda Press Releases, which are few and far between these days - apart from sniping at IE for failing to deliver on line booking, not having enough trains (12 a day fro crissake on a rural branch line). In fact if you look at the Irish Times, Indo and Examiner they have in the main ignored anything issued by WOT and the WRC in general as as storyline for the past two years bar giving it a few lines about its abject failure to succeed, and in the case of the Irish Times - saying it should be a greenway in its editorial back in July. The only story on the WRC is the story of its failure and the nationals will take no heed of WOT spin.

If you want a real fantasy quote from WOT go back a few years and look at their back of the envelope forecasts for usage of the line. This is one of my favouriteS, in particular as it was made at a time when the writing was on the wall about the economy - this is not celtic tiger speak - it was said in 2009....Many thousands of passengers would have been a good start.

West on Track July 20th 2009 The Western Rail Corridor has already created 400 jobs in the construction phase and will deliver many thousands of jobs in private sector companies, once operational.

WOT have lost the PR war, because their cause is no longer credible or relevant

gleesoneoin

I think it must be stated that if one-off rural housing continues in ireland, and the failure by county councils to prioritization of dense housing development in county towns/cities around ireland, then railways/transport companies are bound to fail. Development should be encouraged and planned around railways station towns, so that these stations are as central as possible.

One-off rural housing and this sporadic development of new housing developments in every and any village and hamlet around rural ireland is making those residents dependant on cars, while city centres and town centres suffer decay. This is what is happening in towns such as youghal, tralee etc.

corktina

i can point you at ghost estates in many towns with railway stations. this theory doesn't hold water i'm afraid.

westtip

gleesoneoin wrote: »

I think it must be stated that if one-off rural housing continues in ireland, and the failure by county councils to prioritization of dense housing development in county towns/cities around ireland, then railways/transport companies are bound to fail. Development should be encouraged and planned around railways station towns, so that these stations are as central as possible.

One-off rural housing and this sporadic development of new housing developments in every and any village and hamlet around rural ireland is making those residents dependant on cars, while city centres and town centres suffer decay. This is what is happening in towns such as youghal, tralee etc.

Interesting post - and has been debated before, but it points to something culturally, sociologically and economically important about the failed arguments re the WRC, which no politician or planner had the guts to say at the time this fail rail project was being muted.

If you live in a one off house you need a car, if you live in a one off house in say east Galway and work in an out of town retail development, or software company located in an out of town new technology park you need a car. Many of the arguments about the WRC were based on the "huge potential" of removing commuter traffic in and out of Galway, that commuter traffic is not all heading into the city centre; the need for high volume commuter trains in to Galway city centre does not exist. Whats more those commuters would need to get into a car to get to their nearest rail station - once in the car for the type of distances we are talking about - why not just drive to work - it will be an easier journier home. The problem is the rail alignments like the WRC don't go to where people need to go on a daily basis and the starting journey is too far from where they live - everyone is not heading into the city centre to work or shop, or for a business appointment - people are simply not using the WRC to carry out there daily journies because it doesn't work for them, and probably never will. If they are going to Galwayto socialise they need late night trains to stations where they can walk home from....its a viscious circle of failed plannign and thinking.

Consider the history of train travel in rural Ireland - in the main the train has been used to "get up to dublin", or to "get up the country (from Dublin) and what harm in that, if that's what our train service is about lets accept it and try and do it as well as possible, And lets remember those getting up the country from Dublin can be tourists, visitors and business people; all bringing economic benefit to the west. This is one of the reasons I have argued so long against the WRC; its not needed on socio-economic grounds, it could be put to better socio-economic use as a greenway plus fibre optic ducting along the route - both would be of great economic benefit to the communities it serves. The capital spent on the project and the subvention to keep the current southern branchline limping along could have been invested in say the Galway - dublin route so they could compete with buses, or the Sligo route to make it faster or other such projects. Basically the rail service in this country aside from one or two small urban rail projects like Cork Middleton should be focussed on shifting people (quickly) in and out of Dublin - that would in fact be of greater benefit to the West, not a branch line trundlng up and down between Ennis and Claremorris. By greater benefit to the west I mean this - imagine if a train from Galway could get to Dublin in say 90 minutes stopping once in Athlone and Mullingar (yes open the Athlone mullingar line to expediate galway trains into dublin on a shorter route). OK so maybe it will never be achieved, but it is physically possible - its only 200 km. Of course all of this will never now happen but wouldn't it have been a better vision of what we want to achieve for railway travel in Ireland. More of a big picture view than parish pump view.

In recent times I have been accused of being anti rail - I don't believe I am - one poster coined an excellent phrase fail rail. Yes I am anti fail rail - and when failure can be predicted from day one as the WRC branch line was, you can seen what i mean. On line ticketing more trains etc etc is not going to make the WRC a success; its blueprint is one of failure, and this is something that simply needs to be accepted.

Amen.

dowlingm

One of the biggest errors of the first Limerick-Galway timetable was the horrific connections to Dublin trains - but PaleRail wasn't what WIRC/WOT wanted. If some of the money spent on tarring fields and laying platforms in Craughwell and Ardrahan had instead been spent on adding additional passing track between Galway, Athenry and Ballinasloe to create more flex in the schedule, maybe build the third platform in Galway promised in the doomed commercial redevelopment of that station, it might indeed have been fair to ascribe some uplift in Galway-Athlone traffic to the Athenry-Ennis opening.

westtip

I emailed Barry kenny recently at IE asking for the latest passenger figures here is his response:

Figures are below for year to date (1st Jan to 9th Sept), with the equivalent period for 2011 in brackets.

Regards,

Barry

Limerick - Ennis - journeys 43,798 (43,251)

Ennis-Athenry - journeys 23,495 (25,326)

Athenry-Galway - journeys 90,329 (79,961)

TOTAL- journies - 157,622 (148,538)

Full year totals for 2011 were:

Limerick - Ennis 66,390
Ennis-Athenry 34,461
Athenry-Galway 123,315
Total : 224,166

So Ennis Athenry journies are down on the period Jan 1 - Sept 9th 2011. With 40 up and 40 down trains a week this now represents an average of 8.15 passengers per train between Ennis and Athenry; thats passengers making the through "intercity" journey. In this 36 week period an average of 652 passengers a week on 80 serviced trains. Last year it was an average of 662 passengers per week over the 52 week period; and in the same 36 week period it was 703 passengers per week on the line. So the numbers are decreasing.

The business case for the line was 100,000 passengers per annum, on current usage the end of year figure will be 652x52 = 33,904 passengers. mmmmm WOT went wrong?

Interesting stuff isn't it. Thought it worth sharing

purplepanda

westtip wrote: »

So Ennis Athenry journies are down on the period Jan 1 - Sept 9th 2011. With 40 up and 40 down trains a week this now represents an average of 8.15 passengers per train between Ennis and Athenry; thats passengers making the through "intercity" journey.

Interesting stuff isn't it. Thought it worth sharing

8.15 passengers per train WTF? :mad:

Rosslare - Waterford was more than that! :pac:

Add the Waterford - Limerick - Ballybrophy services which are on the hit list & it looks like the WRC rebuild & reopening will result in three existing railway lines being closed down even before WRC services are curtailed or eventually suspended. :mad:

Jamie2k9

8.15 passengers per train WTF?

Would say most were travling for free.

dowlingm

Wait till the Crusheen station gets goin' lads, suckin' diesel won't be the word for it :rolleyes:

westtip

Looking at those stats again the usage figures are down 7% on 2011 for the like for like comparison over 36 weeks.

In the 36 week period last year it was 703 passengers per week this year its 652.

The aggregate figure for last year was 662 passengers per week over 52 weeks. This would suggest that the final quarter of the year sees less passengers (makes sense - no holiday traffic in that time to speak of). Last year the aggregate weekly figure fell from 702 for weeks 1-36 down to 662 for weeks 1-52 by the end of the year.

This may mean the aggregate figure for 2012 is going may fall even lower than 652 passengers per week, it may fall below 600 passengers per week on 80 trains, (that would be 7.5 passengers per train) if the pattern of less passengers in the weeks 37-52 is repeated again. At some point someone in authority will have to make a tough decision.

And I don't think its about on line booking do you....

GUBU?

glineli

dowlingm wrote: »

Wait till the Crusheen station gets goin' lads, suckin' diesel won't be the word for it :rolleyes:

Planning decision due Nov 5th. A nation holds its breath............:rolleyes:

yer man!

Work on Oranmore station has halted.... apparently they have to wait for Irishrail to construct the platform, they were supposed to be on site in may......

Hotblack Desiato

Or maybe they're realised that the Minister for Transport has just said that if they don't get their act together Irish Rail will have run out of cash by this time next year... Deckchairs, Titanic, etc.