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public sector downing all tools indefinitely...is it a reality?

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24

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    #32
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    jon1981 wrote: »
    explain work to rule... what duties would you not do?

    Something along the lines of refusing to prepare answers to parliamentary questions and ministerial representations.


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    #33
    cee_jay
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭cee_jay


    frman wrote: »
    The general public will notice no difference then.

    If there is a work to rule, a lot of the general public will notice a difference unfortunately.
    Waiting on your Jobseekers claim to be paid? The wait will be even longer now.
    Want to claim taxback? You will be waiting.
    Trying to call some department to get your query answered? You won't get an answer on the phone.
    etc., etc., etc.
    The people most hit by the 5% cut, the clerical officers in every department who before this weren't even taking home €400 a week, are the ones that do all the above.


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    #34
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    Flex wrote: »
    "OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be".

    this is the thing, its a pure throw your toys out of pram attitude... i tell you what there are 400 odd thousand people out there ready to step in do the job


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    #35
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Flex wrote: »
    The "work to rule" approach thats being spouted makes me sick, as does the whole "we coulda got reform if you didnt cut our pay, now we wont ahve another chance for 20 years because we're throwing a hissy fit". What other group of workers can anyone think of that would turn around after taking a paycut from a near bankrupt employer and smuggly say to them and the people who pay their wages to provide services for everyone "OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be". It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Surely if your employer was in such a dire financial position you would endeavour to work even harder and really try to make things more efficient and productive to try improve the situation??? God knows I would.

    Bring on reform by all means, I would love to see them come in and make our jobs more efficient and productive. The government have produced report after report with possible reforms but they went on holidays and could have had a fairer budget by introducing these reforms during the year. Instead they have just cut our pay and left us with the same inefficiencies


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    #36
    quad_red
    Registered Users Posts: 5,561 ✭✭✭quad_red


    Flex wrote: »
    The "work to rule" approach thats being spouted makes me sick, as does the whole "we coulda got reform if you didnt cut our pay, now we wont ahve another chance for 20 years because we're throwing a hissy fit". What other group of workers can anyone think of that would turn around after taking a paycut from a near bankrupt employer and smuggly say to them and the people who pay their wages to provide services for everyone "OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be". It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Surely if your employer was in such a dire financial position you would endeavour to work even harder and really try to make things more efficient and productive to try improve the situation??? God knows I would.

    This hits the nail on the head for me.

    Listening to Begg etc on the radio saying a chance has now passed to reform the public sector, to increase efficiency etc.

    I thought that was bloody well supposed to be part of the Social Partnership process for the last fifteen years?

    It's sickening. Absolutely sickening. A seemingly endless round of payouts that offered sweet f**k all value to the Irish taxpayer. That fed the inflationary cycle that we've all become a victim of.


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    #37
    frman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭frman


    cAr0l wrote: »
    If there is a work to rule, a lot of the general public will notice a difference unfortunately.
    Waiting on your Jobseekers claim to be paid? The wait will be even longer now.
    Want to claim taxback? You will be waiting.
    Trying to call some department to get your query answered? You won't get an answer on the phone.
    etc., etc., etc.
    The people most hit by the 5% cut, the clerical officers in every department who before this weren't even taking home €400 a week, are the ones that do all the above.


    If the staff aren't doing their jobs properly or effectively then it is time that they are replaced.

    As I said it is time to smash the unions and reform the ps. A strong line has to be taken here.

    Simply turning up and sitting at a desk not answering phones is not acceptable.


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    #38
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,397 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Strikes and other actions are a waste of time and effort, they hit services, reduce pay, piss people off and leave public servants even more open for vilification by the media.

    Public servants should direct their anger at those who've been hammering them for the last year. Eg the media and ISME, the crowd who threatened to stop paying tax if public service pay cuts weren't "rammed" through.
    http://www.isme.ie/stg/public/download.php?site=site3008&file=09336publicsector.doc

    Now the pay has been cut so it looks like this bullying tactic has had an effect. Any business (there are 8000+ of them) that is known to be a member of ISME should be boycotted by public servants. Maybe ISME have forgotten that public servants are customers too.


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    #39
    cee_jay
    Registered Users Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭cee_jay


    frman wrote: »
    If the staff aren't doing their jobs properly or effectively then it is time that they are replaced.

    As I said it is time to smash the unions and reform the ps. A strong line has to be taken here.

    Simply turning up and sitting at a desk not answering phones is not acceptable.

    I was just explaining what a work to rule might mean to everyone in the country, in response to someone's comment that the public wouldn't notice any difference.


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    #40
    frman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭frman


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Strikes and other actions are a waste of time and effort, they hit services, reduce pay, piss people off and leave public servants even more open for vilification by the media.

    Public servants should direct their anger at those who've been hammering them for the last year. Eg the media and ISME, the crowd who threatened to stop paying tax if public service pay cuts weren't "rammed" through.
    http://www.isme.ie/stg/public/download.php?site=site3008&file=09336publicsector.doc

    Now the pay has been cut so it looks like this bullying tactic has had an effect. Any business (there are 8000+ of them) that is known to be a member of ISME should be boycotted by public servants. Maybe ISME have forgetten that public servants are customers too.


    Public Servants should direct their anger at their colleagues who dont do a tap and simply give the whole public service a bad name.


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    #41
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    EF wrote: »
    Sorry to burst your bubble but your fellow workers will not be downing the tools. Industrial action will take the form of a sustained work to rule or the like.

    Well if work to rule means that people are not carrying out their jobs to the best of their abilities then they need to start firing people.


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    #42
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    gandalf wrote: »
    Well if work to rule means that people are not carrying out their jobs to the best of their abilities then they need to start firing people.

    Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al


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    #43
    dRNk SAnTA
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭dRNk SAnTA


    I think you can tell that public sector workers know they can't avoid these cuts by listening to their arguments against them.

    In previous years they would have said "look at how much more people are getting paid in X country. Look at the benefits workers receive in Y country". But because they are better paid than everyone else, in this country and abroad, they instead say "don't cut my pay because I have a certain standard of living that I expect to maintain".

    Consultants and GP's are also deserving of big pay cuts.


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    #44
    onedoubleo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭onedoubleo


    gandalf wrote: »
    Well if work to rule means that people are not carrying out their jobs to the best of their abilities then they need to start firing people.

    I always thought that in a work to rule, the workers would just do exactly what is in their job description nothing more nothing less. So they couldnt be fired as they are still fullfilling the obligations they signed up to.
    I could be wrong but that might be one of the facts I remembered from Junior Cert Business


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    #45
    quad_red
    Registered Users Posts: 5,561 ✭✭✭quad_red


    onedoubleo wrote: »
    I always thought that in a work to rule, the workers would just do exactly what is in their job description nothing more nothing less. So they couldnt be fired as they are still fullfilling the obligations they signed up to.
    I could be wrong but that might be one of the facts I remembered from Junior Cert Business

    Worked in the public sector for almost two years when I left college. In an office in Dublin. One guy did no work - he just read the paper and made bets all day. I'm being serious here. He did NO work. Not one minute of work in a day beyond maybe answering the phone if everyone else was busy. And even then that would happen on the odd day.

    When it came time for computer upgrades, they didn't give him one (cos he did no work). But he went beserk, said this was discriminatory etc. so they put a brand new dell with flatscreen on his desk. So he could look up the football and the horses all day.

    In the accounts office three of staff (ladies in their fifties) had refused all upskilling and training so all they did was frank the mail in the morning and shuffle around a few papers. I can remember when it got really busy feeling really galled cos they were all earning 40K plus and I was on 21k per year.

    This isn't hearsay or 'my friend has a friend who' anecdotes. I witnessed all of this. And all of these people were 100% secure in the fact that pretty much no matter what they did, they couldn't and wouldn't be fired.

    So either I happened to wander into the worst setup in Ireland or this was/is indicative of the way things roll.


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    #46
    Rujib1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Rujib1


    cAr0l wrote: »
    If there is a work to rule, a lot of the general public will notice a difference unfortunately.
    Waiting on your Jobseekers claim to be paid? The wait will be even longer now.
    Want to claim taxback? You will be waiting.
    Trying to call some department to get your query answered? You won't get an answer on the phone.
    etc., etc., etc.
    The people most hit by the 5% cut, the clerical officers in every department who before this weren't even taking home €400 a week, are the ones that do all the above.

    You have just made a good case to privatise a whole raft of the public and civil service aparatus. The job would be done 4 times as efficiently, with probably less then half the number of employees, sick day syndrome would go out the window with a P45 stuck in it's ass.


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    #47
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,688 ✭✭✭whippet


    EF wrote: »
    Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

    well going by most of the international reaction and media Lenihan is after rising in most's estimations.

    Of course the Bearded ones and the CS / PS will say otherwise, Turkey's don't look for christmas dinner every week!!


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    #48
    Rujib1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Rujib1


    EF wrote: »
    Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

    That's the thing. Cowan and Lenihan, can be very easily fired at every election. Public and civil service workers are lifers. Cant possibly get rid of the ones who don't give a rats ass and tarnish the rest of you.


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    #49
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    EF wrote: »
    Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

    Oh we can wait until the next election to fire "Laurel and Hardy" let them sweat and work to try and resolve the mess they created for the next two years.

    I wonder did Bertie send them a Chrissie Card as well :)


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    #50
    johngalway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    joolsveer wrote: »
    Do you think that public support is important to public servants? There has been a sustained campaign against all workers in the public service and it seems to be continuing.

    I am not a public servant but my wife is and she reckons that her salary will be down about 20% because of cuts already made and those yet to be made.

    I think public support is important to any Government. I think this particular Government see the deep hole they're in which is filled with brown smelly stuff. I think they see how most of the population who isn't PS/CS are sick to the back teeth of the Unions unrealistic whinging. I think the Government also see how the different levels of the CS/PS seem to be splitting, some are for strike, some are for getting on with it.

    Negotiations in Union speak means give us what we want and we won't strike. We won't give you anything or do anything, we just won't strike.

    The reality of today is the money isn't there. Any other thoughts are from fantasy land.

    I'm sorry for your wife, but reality is I have lost more in the region of 70% of my income this year, through no fault of my own. Other people who don't work in pretty much "for life, pensionable" jobs are in similar and worse positions to your wife. Those people have one choice to make, take the paycut and keep the job, or take the dole.

    There isn't the third option, this country is ****ed in case the PS/CS workers hadn't noticed? It's all pain for most of us for a few years. A lot of people, myself included are sick, genuinely sick of the double standard whinging by some PS/CS workers.

    I heard a nurse wheeled out onto radio the last day. She started off by saying the proposed cut in her wages was her holiday money, and she'd be deprived of her holiday if it went ahead :rolleyes: (big friggin deal in all fairness). After being challenged a bit on that the money mysteriously turned into essential "what if" money for the plumber emergencies and such... Utterly self interested transparent nonsense.

    Again I'll repeat my firsthand expierence of the proposed second day of strike in the motor tax office in Galway. One customer came in and asked the girl behind the counter "are ye out on Thursday", couldn't hear the reply. The customer went on to say "I hope we are, I could do with the day off". "God I hope no one heard me, that sounded so bad".

    In all honesty, and I am being genuine and honest here. That kind of stuff has turned nearly all the people I know locally completely against anything Union related.

    It doesn't mean people don't feel sorry for others losing money. But it seems some in the PS/CS seem to think they're the only ones getting hammered and that they should be regarded as a special case when they're no different to the rest of us little people.

    Rant, strike, pontificate all they like, the money ain't there. Simple as.


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    #51
    suimhneas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 153 ✭✭suimhneas


    course its not real you fool, when will it dawn on you that the government are using the indo as their mouth piece? speaking as a public servant on 31000 a year after 11 years service i bloody cannot afford to go on strike, we are not all in unions get a dose of cop on will you.


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    #52
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Rujib1 wrote: »
    That's the thing. Cowan and Lenihan, can be very easily fired at every election. Public and civil service workers are lifers. Cant possibly get rid of the ones who don't give a rats ass and tarnish the rest of you.

    Not everyone is on a permanent contract and the mechanisms are there to fire public sector workers who do not perform. An effective performance management system would be a godsend but again this is another reform which is not being addressed.

    Just to note I have stopped all voluntary deductions from my pay apart from the Union subs so that will be next to go if the changes we need do not happen. The extra 14% compulsory pension deduction from pay compared to an equivalent private sector worker does nothing to meet current day to day cost of living


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    #53
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    suimhneas wrote: »
    course its not real you fool, when will it dawn on you that the government are using the indo as their mouth piece? speaking as a public servant on 31000 a year after 11 years service i bloody cannot afford to go on strike, we are not all in unions get a dose of cop on will you.

    why are you there 11 years and only on 31k? why didnt you leave and try to make more money?


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    #54
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,397 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    frman wrote: »
    Public Servants should direct their anger at their colleagues who dont do a tap and simply give the whole public service a bad name.
    Try applying that principle to other groups of society:
    Eg Travellers - let's vilify ALL of them in the media, then blame travellers for not weeding out the bad apples in their group. If they don't weed them out, then it's open season, and if they try to defend themselves, vilify them some more
    :rolleyes:

    Luckily for them, the travelling community is protected against this sort of thing by legislation. Public servants are not. Let public servants try to hit the bashers where it hurts i.e in their wallets. Perfectly legal - unlike ISME's outrageous threat to stop paying taxes which seems to have gotten very little negative comment in this forum and elsewhere.


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    #55
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    http://www.benchmarking.gov.ie/

    Proxy Error
    The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
    The proxy server could not handle the request GET /.

    Reason: Error reading from remote server



    Apache/2.0.58 (Win32) Server at www.benchmarking.gov.ie Port 80


    :rolleyes:


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    #56
    hem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭hem


    How about taxpayers going on strike? Could be an interesting situation if everybody withheld taxes for a month.


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    #57
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Perfectly legal - unlike ISME's outrageous threat to stop paying taxes which seems to have gotten very little negative comment in this forum and elsewhere.

    Well I didn't comment negatively because I agreed with them. If the PS wages cost weren't reduced and the taxpayers of this country were expected to foot the bill for a service that is out of sync with what is happening in the country then I would have done the same except I can't as a PAYE worker.


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    #58
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    jon1981 wrote: »
    how real is this?

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/budget-2010-cowen-to-hold-firm-as-unions-threaten-strikes-1971232.html




    will the government back down if this were to happen? Did the Government create some room for negogiation after the budget? i.e looking for 4billion in cuts but would negotiate down to 3billion if the above situation was to happen? It looks like the unions are willing to destroy the country to reverse the budget and with the gardai ballot about to take place... this is all extremely worrying!

    I hope it does happen I think they say 50 million a day was the saving last time - the government has to stand firm on this - a strike would last max two days before it crumbled - the beards are beaten - wake up.


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    #59
    frman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭frman


    Public Servants have not been vilified.

    Cuts in pay was the first step needed to bring our defecit under control.

    The next step is public service reform; or more cuts.

    That is the choice, reform or more pay cuts.


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    #60
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,706 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    EF wrote: »
    Not everyone is on a permanent contract and the mechanisms are there to fire public sector workers who do not perform. An effective performance management system would be a godsend but again this is another reform which is not being addressed.

    You mean the performance management system which was meant to have been implemented as part of your pay rises? At the very least, the unions/PS broke their end of the bargain on benchmarking, and should have all "benchmark" pay increases removed.

    I would also love to see a list of all PS workers who have been fired, would I need both hands to count? Did the people get fired for doing the crossword in an obnoxious fashion?
    EF wrote: »
    Just to note I have stopped all voluntary deductions from my pay apart from the Union subs so that will be next to go if the changes we need do not happen. The extra 14% compulsory pension deduction from pay compared to an equivalent private sector worker does nothing to meet current day to day cost of living

    Then negotiate with your union to end the compulsary pension payments you have to make.


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    #61
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,397 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    frman wrote: »
    Public Servants have not been vilified.
    LMAO. So being accused of "treason" by the Irish Examiner due to unproven "day of shopping" allegations doesn't constitute vilification.
    In law, defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for spoken words), and libel (for written or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image.


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