Vatican not to blame for recent problems in Ireland

robindch

The Vatican has issued a statement about today's meetings between the pope and the Irish hierarchy, represented by Archbishop Martin and Cardinal Brady. The statement is a straightforward "statement of regret" in which the Vatican laments the events that took place, but does not accept any liability.

The statement reads:

The Vatican wrote:

Today the Holy Father held a meeting with senior Irish Bishops and high-ranking members of the Roman Curia. He listened to their concerns and discussed with them the traumatic events that were presented in the Irish Commission of Investigation's Report into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin.

After careful study of the Report, the Holy Father was deeply disturbed and distressed by its contents. He wishes once more to express his profound regret at the actions of some members of the clergy who have betrayed their solemn promises to God, as well as the trust placed in them by the victims and their families, and by society at large.

The Holy Father shares the outrage, betrayal and shame felt by so many of the faithful in Ireland, and he is united with them in prayer at this difficult time in the life of the Church. His Holiness asks Catholics in Ireland and throughout the world to join him in praying for the victims, their families and all those affected by these heinous crimes.

He assures all concerned that the Church will continue to follow this grave matter with the closest attention in order to understand better how these shameful events came to pass and how best to develop effective and secure strategies to prevent any recurrence.

The Holy See takes very seriously the central issues raised by the Report, including questions concerning the governance of local Church leaders with ultimate responsibility for the pastoral care of children. The Holy Father intends to address a Pastoral Letter to the faithful of Ireland in which he will clearly indicate the initiatives that are to be taken in response to the situation.

Finally, His Holiness encourages all those who have dedicated their lives in generous service to children to persevere in their good works in imitation of Christ the Good Shepherd.

By referring to the "governance of local Church leaders with ultimate responsibility for the pastoral care", the Vatican is denying institutional responsibility for what happened, hoping no doubt that this will remain a safe distance away on the shoulders of the Irish hierarchy.

However, the Papal Nuncio, at last week's meeting at the Department of Foreign Affairs, has said that the "Holy Father will take any action that is necessary."

The Vatican has two choices. It can either deny responsibility, in which case it is powerless to take action. Or, it can take action, and by doing so, show that it accepts responsibility.

What it can't do is have it both ways.

Galvasean

I could be mistaken, but didn't Pope Benedict (before he became Pope) write to the Irish bishops decreeing that they should not report instances of abuse to authorities, but deal with the matters internally instead?

bnt

Galvasean wrote: »

I could be mistaken, but didn't Pope Benedict (before he became Pope) write to the Irish bishops decreeing that they should not report instances of abuse to authorities, but deal with the matters internally instead?

Yes, and not just Irish bishops, but Americans too. References:

• http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5402928.stm
• http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/stories3/112902_vatican.htm

The Boston Globe article dates back to 2002:

Doyle said he feels that the Congregation, headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, ''watered down'' the rules for confronting priest sex abuse that were established by the US bishops in Dallas in June. He said the changes weakened the role of the lay boards and in the end, as Doyle put it, continued ''with the view that church law is somehow above state law.''

FutureTaoiseach

The Vatican is responsible for the situation. As former Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the Inquisition - I kid you not), Cardinal Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Church, warning them of strict penalities if they dare to expose information on investigations of allegations of abuse in the Church. Pope Benedict should resign if he cares for the credibility of his Church (which in my opinion doesn't exist anyway).

wikipedia wrote:

As part of the implementation of the norms enacted and promulgated on April 30, 2001 by Pope John Paul II,[4] on May 18, 2001 Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Catholic Church.[5] This letter reminded them of the strict penalties facing those who revealed confidential details concerning enquiries into allegations against priests of certain grave ecclesiastical crimes, including sexual abuse, which were reserved to the jurisdiction of the Congregation. The letter extended the prescription or statute of limitations for these crimes to ten years. However, when the crime is sexual abuse of a minor, the "prescription begins to run from the day on that which the minor completes the eighteenth year of age."[6] Lawyers acting for two alleged victims of abuse in Texas claim that by sending the letter the cardinal conspired to obstruct justice.[7] The letter did not, in fact, discourage victims from reporting the abuse itself to the police; the secrecy related rather to the internal investigation of the alleged crime, forbidding all parties to divulge what took place during the Church trial. The Catholic News Service reported that "the letter said the new norms reflected the CDF's traditional "exclusive competence" regarding delicta graviora—Latin for "graver offenses". According to Canon Law experts in Rome, reserving cases of clerical sexual abuse of minors to the CDF is something new. In past eras, some serious crimes by priests against sexual morality, including pedophilia, were handled by that congregation or its predecessor, the Holy Office, but this has not been true in recent years."[8] The promulgation of the norms by Pope John Paul II and the subsequent letter by the then Prefect of the CDF were published in 2001 in Acta Apostolicae Sedis[9] which is the Holy See's official journal, in accordance with the Code of Canon Law,[10] and is disseminated monthly to thousands of libraries and offices around the world.[11] In 2002, Ratzinger told the Catholic News Service that "less than one percent of priests are guilty of acts of this type."[12] Opponents saw this as ignoring the crimes of those who committed the abuse; others saw it as merely pointing out that this should not taint other priests who live respectable lives.[8][13] Ratzinger's Good Friday reflections in 2005 were interpreted as strongly condemning and regretting the abuse scandals, which largely put to rest the speculation of indifference. Shortly after his election,I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Unnecessary_vagueness"]vague[/URL][/I he told Francis Cardinal George, the Archbishop of Chicago, that he would attend to the matter.[8]

Flamed Diving

All divinely ordained, remember.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

The Vatican has issued a statement about today's meetings between the pope and the Irish hierarchy, represented by Archbishop Martin and Cardinal Brady. The statement is a straightforward "statement of regret" in which the Vatican laments the events that took place, but does not accept any liability.

Course it doesn't. Sure it's run like a hippy commune with no central leadership at all, at all.

ChocolateSauce

I think the Church is irredeemably disgraced, and I think the only way that the average Catholic and the average priest can absolve themselves of the shame of association is to defect. The Germans washed their hands of the Nazi's, so should Catholics wash their hands of the Church.

dvpower

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

The Vatican is responsible for the situation. As former Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly the Inquisition - I kid you not), Cardinal Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Church, warning them of strict penalities if they dare to expose information on investigations of allegations of abuse in the Church. Pope Benedict should resign if he cares for the credibility of his Church (which in my opinion doesn't exist anyway).

He issued a letter in 2001 reminding Bishops that an earlier policy of coverup was in force.

The Gaurdian wrote:

The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church.

The Observer has obtained a 40-year-old confidential document from the secret Vatican archive which lawyers are calling a 'blueprint for deception and concealment'. One British lawyer acting for Church child abuse victims has described it as 'explosive'.
The 69-page Latin document bearing the seal of Pope John XXIII was sent to every bishop in the world. The instructions outline a policy of 'strictest' secrecy in dealing with allegations of sexual abuse and threatens those who speak out with excommunication. They also call for the victim to take an oath of secrecy at the time of making a complaint to Church officials. It states that the instructions are to 'be diligently stored in the secret archives of the Curia [Vatican] as strictly confidential. Nor is it to be published nor added to with any commentaries.'

But he must have a terrible memory, because he seems quite surprised by the whole sad affair now.

The Pope summoned Cardinal Brady, the Primate of All Ireland, and the current archbishop of Dublin to Rome after the Vatican was criticised for failing to respond to the Murphy inquiry.

After the meeting, the Vatican issued the statement which said the Pope shared the "outrage, betrayal and shame" felt by Irish people over the cover-up.
"The Holy Father was deeply disturbed and distressed by its contents," it added.

rohatch

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think the Church is irredeemably disgraced, and I think the only way that the average Catholic and the average priest can absolve themselves of the shame of association is to defect. The Germans washed their hands of the Nazi's, so should Catholics wash their hands of the Church.

Get rid of them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

Ratzinger was a Nazi, the vatican is a fcukin joke.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

The issue is they represent a delusional belief, aside from everything else that they have done in the name of JC. How can anyone trust a word they say.

How are people that stupid?

robindch

rohatch wrote: »

Ratzi was a Nazi, the vatican is a fcukin joke. [...] How are people that stupid?

rohatch is now taking a week's holiday so that his blood pressure can go down a few octaves.

FutureTaoiseach

rohatch wrote: »

Get rid of them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

Ratzinger was a Nazi, the vatican is a fcukin joke.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

The issue is they represent a delusional belief, aside from everything else that they have done in the name of JC. How can anyone trust a word they say.

How are people that stupid?

To be fair to Papa Ratzi, membership of the Hitler Youth was compulsory at age 14. Your link even acknowledges that fact.

Nodin

It's best to drop the hyperbole until we see if he tries to dispatch Murray to the Eastern Front or not.....

sold

robindch wrote: »

Vatican not to blame for recent problems in Ireland

no they are not to blame to recent problems. Recently it has only been a report to past problems, Their ethos not to publicise the sins of its priests have caused this issue as there has been coverup for years.

chughes

For a long time now the Catholic church has been in decline in this country and this process has been driven by the church itself. For many years after the foundation of the state the church was placed above civil law that everyone else had to adhere to. Human nature being what it is, if people can get away with something without the risk of punishment, then there is a percentage of people who will take advantage of this.

This abuse of power has been going on since then but it's only come to a head with the revelations during the 1990's of the physical and mental abuse that had being going on for years in various religious institutions. It was only then that people could openly acknowledge what was being said in private for years.

The hypocracy of the church was also plain to see when, on the one hand, you had the Bishop Caseys and Father Michael Clearys telling us what we should or should not be doing in the privacy of our own bedrooms while on the other hand, they were living parallel lives with families of their own. The fact that Cleary never publically acknowledged his own son is absolutely disgraceful.

Given all that has gone on it's no wonder the church in this country is in terminal decline. At this stage, while I'm outraged at the contents of the Ryan and Murphy Reports, the fact is I don't really care what happens to the church anymore. As the old saying goes, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. If more and more people choose to ignore it then eventually it becomes an irelevence.

The church and the Vatican itself only have power because people choose to give it to them. If things keep going the way they are then the Catholic church and all it's institutions will be gone within a few generations.

rohatch

chughes wrote: »

For a long time now the Catholic church has been in decline in this country and this process has been driven by the church itself. For many years after the foundation of the state the church was placed above civil law that everyone else had to adhere to. Human nature being what it is, if people can get away with something without the risk of punishment, then there is a percentage of people who will take advantage of this.

This abuse of power has been going on since then but it's only come to a head with the revelations during the 1990's of the physical and mental abuse that had being going on for years in various religious institutions. It was only then that people could openly acknowledge what was being said in private for years.

The hypocracy of the church was also plain to see when, on the one hand, you had the Bishop Caseys and Father Michael Clearys telling us what we should or should not be doing in the privacy of our own bedrooms while on the other hand, they were living parallel lives with families of their own. The fact that Cleary never publically acknowledged his own son is absolutely disgraceful.

Given all that has gone on it's no wonder the church in this country is in terminal decline. At this stage, while I'm outraged at the contents of the Ryan and Murphy Reports, the fact is I don't really care what happens to the church anymore. As the old saying goes, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. If more and more people choose to ignore it then eventually it becomes an irelevence.

The church and the Vatican itself only have power because people choose to give it to them. If things keep going the way they are then the Catholic church and all it's institutions will be gone within a few generations.

Here is a list of their HOBBIES

Raping children, killing children, raping children with crucifix's + other implements.
Allowed the rapists (at the highest level*) and murderer's to move on to new areas where there were FRESH children
Stealing babies to order from their laundry's and selling them to the highest bidder around the world and sealing the information forever.
Helping Nazi's escape to South America.
Subjugation of women and their bodies and their choices.
Invention of purgatory, limbo, fancy uniforms, palaces, no meat fridays, etc

Seriously people how can they be still here.

How can you support them.

Galvasean

rohatch wrote: »

Here is a list of their HOBBIES

Raping children, killing children, raping children with crucifix's + other implements.
Allowed the rapists (at the highest level*) and murderer's to move on to new areas where there were FRESH children
Stealing babies to order from their laundry's and selling them to the highest bidder around the world and sealing the information forever.
Helping Nazi's escape to South America.
Subjugation of women and their bodies and their choices.
Invention of purgatory, limbo, fancy uniforms, palaces, no meat fridays, etc

Seriously people how can they be still here.

How can you support them.

At least you didn't include fancy uniforms in your list this time.

aidan24326

Flamed Diving wrote: »

All divinely ordained, remember.

Actually there was a letter in the 'letters to the editor' page in The Irish Independent last week (could have been Monday I think) from a priest, claiming that it's all Satan's fault. Anyone else see that?

pH

aidan24326 wrote: »

Actually there was a letter in the 'letters to the editor' page in The Irish Independent last week (could have been Monday I think) from a priest, claiming that it's all Satan's fault. Anyone else see that?

Indeed there was:

Sir -- How could men who were supposed to be dedicated to God and to the welfare of God's children sink to the level of betraying their God and destroying innocent children? I believe the answer, simplistic though it may seem to some, is that these men allowed Satan to corrupt their very selves by neglecting humble and sincere prayerful contact with God, a vital and essential part of their priestly training.

Many people tend not to believe in the existence of Satan, yet Christ himself spoke very clearly and emphatically many times about Satan, Spirit of Evil. He warned his future first Pope, Simon Peter, that Satan was the dangerous enemy who would strive to destroy him and the Church.

St John in his Gospel relates how Satan possessed the heart of Judas, a priest of Christ, corrupting him so that he went out to betray the Son of God (John, Chapter 13, Verses 21-28). Satan, in his evil endeavour in corrupting numbers of priests throughout the world, strives thereby to destroy the Church.

Like every person in Ireland, but particularly as a priest, I am shocked, humiliated and devastated by the horrible events as depicted in the inquiry into the Dublin Diocese and I pray every day for all the people who as innocent children were so terribly harmed and wounded, and I pray God's forgiveness for those who inflicted the harm and suffering.

St Peter himself admonished the early Church. "Be sober, be watchful, your adversary the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith." (First letter of St Peter, ch.5 v.8-9) Alas, Satan in his wiles infiltrated the minds of Church leaders, who opted for worldly wisdom as opposed to divine wisdom in deciding to save the Church from scandal as they saw it, rather than protecting God's innocent children.

The way forward for all, but especially for those in authority, is a renewed dedication to following Christ in the example of his own life and through putting into practice the prescriptions he gave us in his sermon on the Mount. All this can only be achieved by humble, continuous and sincere contact with Christ in prayer.

Fr Con McGillicuddy,

Drumcondra, Dublin 9

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/priests-allowed-satan-into-hearts-1973134.html

MrPudding

aidan24326 wrote: »

Actually there was a letter in the 'letters to the editor' page in The Irish Independent last week (could have been Monday I think) from a priest, claiming that it's all Satan's fault. Anyone else see that?

Always nice to be able to blame the bad stuff on something other than members of your gang.

MrP

chughes

MrPudding wrote: »

Always nice to be able to blame the bad stuff on something other than members of your gang.

MrP

It's an age old Irish tradition. Fianna Fail had the PD's and Greens to blame for all the bad stuff. The church has satan to fulfil the same role.

Rev Hellfire

As damning as the abuse scandal was for the catholic church, its says a lot more about something deeply rotten in the Irish male psyche. The level of abuse which seems to have occurred in this country seems almost systemic.
We can rightly blame the church for the cover-up, but the true villains in the piece are the Irish themselves.

pH

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As damning as the abuse scandal was for the catholic church, its says a lot more about something deeply rotten in the Irish male psyche. The level of abuse which seems to have occurred in this country seems almost systemic.
We can rightly blame the church for the cover-up, but the true villains in the piece are the Irish themselves.

I kind of agree and disagree, I hate the catholic church with a passion, yet find myself vaguely sympathetic with them on this issue.

I agree with the blame being on the Irish, it is not the job of the catholic church to investigate crimes, nor is it their job to punish the guilty.

If it can be shown that criminal investigations have been impeded then by all means bring charges against those who did.

I also feel that the Gardai have escaped without much blame, and that a lot of the failings currently placed at the door of the church need to be moved "next door" to Garda HQ or the Dept. of Justice.

That said, I'm not sure that knowledge of a crime and failure to report it is itself a crime in Ireland, even if someone admits to a crime.

On a related note, is this purely and Irish problem? Has anyone seen any media interest in the question "Did this happen elsewhere?". There surely were other countries who had as strong a Catholic influence on them on a similar timescale, so the question I'd ask is was sexual abuse by the clergy as wide-spread in other countries (Spain? Italy? Rwanda?), we've read some reports of child-abuse by priests in the US, but what of the rest of Europe? if it was have there been similar investigations? and if not, why not?

Rev Hellfire

pH wrote: »

On a related note, is this purely and Irish problem? Has anyone seen any media interest in the question "Did this happen elsewhere?". There surely were other countries who had as strong a Catholic influence on them on a similar timescale, so the question I'd ask is was sexual abuse by the clergy as wide-spread in other countries (Spain? Italy? Rwanda?), we've read some reports of child-abuse by priests in the US, but what of the rest of Europe? if it was have there been similar investigations? and if not, why not?

I'd be interested in the answer to that myself. Though I'd be also be interested in seeing if the levels of paedophilia in Irish clergy was higher than the level of paedophilia in the population in general.

It seems also all sport organisations here have had similar scandals, not the mention the number of fathers also involved in these crimes. Wherever there is a position of trust or authority these people seem to have insinuated themselves into them.

chughes

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As damning as the abuse scandal was for the catholic church, its says a lot more about something deeply rotten in the Irish male psyche. The level of abuse which seems to have occurred in this country seems almost systemic.
We can rightly blame the church for the cover-up, but the true villains in the piece are the Irish themselves.

While there's no doubt that males were in the majority when it cames to abuse of children, don't forget that the nuns were involved too, Goldenbridge etc. To single out males when females were also involved is unfair.

aidan24326

MrPudding wrote: »

Always nice to be able to blame the bad stuff on something other than members of your gang.

MrP

True, and it's fairly clutching at straws to start blaming the horned beast at this stage.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As damning as the abuse scandal was for the catholic church, its says a lot more about something deeply rotten in the Irish male psyche. The level of abuse which seems to have occurred in this country seems almost systemic.
We can rightly blame the church for the cover-up, but the true villains in the piece are the Irish themselves.

That's a fair point. Parents are also to blame for creating the kind of environment where a child was more often than not afraid to report the abuse in the first place, knowing they'd more than likely be chastised for daring to say such a thing about a man of god. And if you did say anything, twenty lashes with daddy's leather belt would ensure you kept your mouth shut next time. I know the church are partly to blame for that too, but people didn't have to follow their every word so blindly either. Too many people allowed the church to do their thinking for them, and many still do.

ironingbored

pH wrote: »

On a related note, is this purely and Irish problem? Has anyone seen any media interest in the question "Did this happen elsewhere?". There surely were other countries who had as strong a Catholic influence on them on a similar timescale, so the question I'd ask is was sexual abuse by the clergy as wide-spread in other countries (Spain? Italy? Rwanda?), we've read some reports of child-abuse by priests in the US, but what of the rest of Europe? if it was have there been similar investigations? and if not, why not?

I can only really speak from my experience of having lived in Italy for 10 years. There has never been the kind of systematic rape and abuse of children on an institutional level in Italy as far as I'm aware.

There have been investigations and convictions but not on any comparable scale to Ireland.

There are probable many reasons for this. Despite the presence of the Vatican City State within its borders, Italy from certain points of view is light years ahead of Ireland with regard to education, divorce, abortion, etc. Italy is split almost 50/50 between right and left, the latter having been responsible for pushing a liberal social agenda since the 1960s. This is a process in reverse with the arrival of Silvio Berlusconi's neopopulism, which relies heavily on the Vatican/Catholic bloc, neofascists and Northern Separatists.

The power of the Catholic Church in Ireland from the mid 19th century to the 1980s has no equal.

rohatch

Galvasean wrote: »

At least you didn't include fancy uniforms in your list this time.

I just cannot understand how any organisation based on bull**** from the dark ages can get away with this.

Rape, murder, buggery, theft, brainwashing. IF it was scientology it would not be tolerated.

Even on this forum I feel like I am banging my head against a wall.

rohatch

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

To be fair to Papa Ratzi, membership of the Hitler Youth was compulsory at age 14. Your link even acknowledges that fact.

He was a Nazi.

It is irrelevant that membership of the Hitler Youth was compulsory.

Flamed Diving

rohatch wrote: »

He was a Nazi.

It is irrelevant that membership of the Hitler Youth was compulsory.

No, it is relevant. Just because you say it isn't doesn't make it true.

rohatch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No, it is relevant. Just because you say it isn't doesn't make it true.

So is that your argument for SS soldiers too?

Flamed Diving

rohatch wrote: »

So is that your argument for SS soldiers too?

No. But then I don't judge the decisions of the adult members of Nazi elite police to be comparable to the decisions of a child who was forced to join a Nazi youth club.

Different strokes...

rohatch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No. But then I don't judge the decisions of the adult members of Nazi elite police to be comparable to the decisions of a child who was forced to join a Nazi youth club.

Different strokes...

Still does not change the fact that the pope was a member of the nazi youth.

Flamed Diving

rohatch wrote: »

Still does not change the fact that the pope was a member of the nazi youth.

Of course it doesn't. But as with all things in life, there is context to be understood. But hey, why let that get in the way of a good tabloid headline?

rohatch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Of course it doesn't. But as with all things in life, there is context to be understood. But hey, why let that get in the way of a good tabloid headline?

If the man in charge of one of the biggest cults on the planet, is
(a) A former Nazi
(b) responsible for the original procedures to enable said cover up of sexual abuse

then surely no tabloid headline can compare

laugh

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As damning as the abuse scandal was for the catholic church, its says a lot more about something deeply rotten in the Irish male psyche. The level of abuse which seems to have occurred in this country seems almost systemic.
We can rightly blame the church for the cover-up, but the true villains in the piece are the Irish themselves.

Why did homosexual men have to hide in the church?

Flamed Diving

rohatch wrote: »

If the man in charge of one of the biggest cults on the planet, is
(a) A former Nazi
(b) responsible for the original procedures to enable said cover up of sexual abuse

then surely no tabloid headline can compare

Whatever works for you, rohatch. Your childish posts are boring me, to be honest.

There's a good boy.

chughes

laugh wrote: »

Why did homosexual men have to hide in the church?

Although I'm a married man and as straight as they come, I think it's grossly unfair to tar homosexual men in this way. Given that some of the victims were young girls, surely gay men wouldn't be interested in them.

Perverts and paedos can come from all sorts of backgrounds, even being married. I'm sure the majority of gay men are as horrified by what the religious orders did to kids as anyone else.

krudler

rohatch wrote: »

If the man in charge of one of the biggest cults on the planet, is
(a) A former Nazi
(b) responsible for the original procedures to enable said cover up of sexual abuse

then surely no tabloid headline can compare

Not by choice though, a 14 year old being drafted into the Hitler youth, possibly having no idea about what they were doing, isnt the same as the higher ups signing death camp orders, also didnt he desert them?

laugh

chughes wrote: »

Although I'm a married man and as straight as they come, I think it's grossly unfair to tar homosexual men in this way. Given that some of the victims were young girls, surely gay men wouldn't be interested in them.

Perverts and paedos can come from all sorts of backgrounds, even being married. I'm sure the majority of gay men are as horrified by what the religious orders did to kids as anyone else.

The majority of the victims were boys by all accounts.