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Thoughts of a civil servant (long)
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12-12-2009 12:29pm#1I am a 33 married man with a great wife and a beautiful 15-month daughter.
I work in the civil service as an auditor in Revenue.
My basic is going to be €52,000 approx from 01/01/2010
I receive an allowance of almost €7,000. This is to make myself available for out of office hour’s work.
I don’t get paid overtime because of above and in all my time in “normal” audit never received overtime, the job doesn’t lend itself to it.
As a result of the last two budgets, my net pay is going to down €110 per week.
My wife worked in the private sector, but as of yesterday she has been made redundant.
Education: Degree in taxation and member of AITI.
I am a member of a union; I joined about 3 weeks ago.
We own 2 cars, 1 almost 10 years old the other almost 7.
Have a mortgage on a self build of about €1000 per month.
It really annoys me when I read from private sector workers “if you don’t like where you work, there are plenty of other options like the rest of us in the private sector/real world”
Likewise it annoys me when I read these public servants “if its so great in the public sector, then why didn’t you join us”
Or “I’m not in it for the money, I love my job” if you do, that’s great, but most people work to finance there life and what you get paid has a direct connection to what life you lead.
While they all contain some truth, they are in reality just lazy, throw one-liners.
We all make choices and have to live with the consequences.
My brother is an accountant. After a good leaving he went straight in to practice, worked hard, got his exams and eventually set up his own small practice, with 4 or 5 staff.
I dropped out of a Mickey Mouse course in college and joined the civil service. I started with a 7 month stint in the CSO in Cork (in my experience a holiday camp) and the last 12 in Revenue, 9 in auditing sole traders and companies and the last 20 months in more specialised investigation audit. Along the way completing my education.
I know my brother earns more money than me and earned a lot more in the boom, but he took the entrepreneurial risk and should receive more financial rewards. On the other hand, when times a bad, faces the risk of going bust. He decided on his life by choice. I don’t have those highs or lows; I went down a different path by choice. No one forced either of us into the occupations we are in. (our father was also an accountant, so it might explain some of it for both of us)
I could have left Revenue and gone down the private sector route, as many former colleagues in Revenue did. From talking to them they got a lot more money with much more stress and longer hours. Their choice.
I was tempted but for 2 main reasons I didn’t:
1. I was living in Dublin at the time, my wife and myself wanted to move down nearer home and live in countryside. I felt this was impossible as the top practices are more or less based in Dublin. (In the cs, it took me 10 years to get to the location I wanted)
2. I didn’t like the fact of leaving one employer for another. As in, if I was going to take the plunge, I wanted to be self-employed or in a partnership.
Again this was my choice.
I also reject the claim that all civil servants are lazy and overpaid. I know I work dam hard and earn every penny I get. I also know people in both the private and public sector that “if there was work on the bed, they would sleep on the floor.”
However, the country is in a dire financial position.
I did receive benchmarking and to be honest I felt I deserved it. However, everyone in my grade, through out the civil service, got the same % increase, this was a joke. To compare the work revenue and social welfare do to some of the holiday camps out there was incredibly unfair to those areas and the private sector who were in effect paying for the increases.
Be that as it may, when money was a plenty I got an increase and in reality when there is none around I should receive a decrease, but I don’t like it and don’t have to be grateful for it.
I know civil servants didn’t cause this mess but we did receive a benefit from it.
Last Wednesday felt like a kick in the balls. I put the blame squarely on Lenihan and Cowens shoulders.
I would have more respect for them, if they had came out last April and said, “we can’t afford to pay civil servants as much, in the next budget we will cut your wages between 5-10%”
I wouldn’t have liked it, but it would have at least given people time to plan and adjust. It also would have meant their would have been certainty with the civil service. Don’t forget we are consumers to. I know we have been afraid to spend. My wife and myself have been talking about changing the 10-year-old car for the last year but we were reluctant to do so, because we didn’t know where we stood. I’m sure we are not the only ones out there. Even little things, I now bring a packed lunch to work, this means the shop next door is down approx €25, from me each week or €1,200 per year.
My family always voted FF and I have got to confess I have done so myself. However, because of the mess they have made of the country and the fact I don’t think it is a good idea to have a party in government for the bones of 20 years, there is no chance I will vote for them again. As the saying goes “I wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire.”
With regard the other aspects of the last budget, I believe:
· Child benefit should be taxed as income, not a straight cut.
· Anyone in employment should pay income tax.
· That social welfare needed to be cut as to widen the possibility of the poverty trap.
· The government has more or less told the under 24s to feck off out of here and hopefully we will see you in 10 years.
· In my opinion, it is immoral for the government to cut my pay, cut social welfare and allow the AIB to pay 3% wages increases with our money.
My job is effectively, to go through the books and records of sole traders and companies to find out if they have paid all the tax they are obliged to under law. The nature of the work I’m currently involved in, invariably involves carrying out surveillance and operations late at night in the worst conditions. This is on top of the normal working day, this is what I get the allowance for. It would cost much more to pay me overtime. However, I did apply for the position, knowing the nature of the job. My choice.
The thing that has amazed me this year is that in the 1st 6 months it was the banks and bankers that were at fault for everything and in the last 6 months it was the civil service. No one has ever mentioned the corrupt private sector. The amount of business I see, fiddling with their books and not paying there due taxes is just astonishing. It seems that people will screw over the state at will and don’t even see the consequences of it.
Some examples:
· Business that deduct an employee’s paye/prsi and don’t return it to Revenue. This is not the company’s money, it’s the employees, if these employees are let go, the social welfare record says they have not paid a stamp and they will get feck all from social welfare, but still it goes on.
· I really don’t believe the general public even understand the basic concept of VAT. I hear some motor company has been caught with a big VAT liability and people say it terrible the company has to pay VAT. VAT is an end user tax, this means when you buy the car, you pay the VAT, not the motor company. They are just there to collect it on Revenues behalf, not to use it to finance their business.
· People just fiddling the books. Just not returning the proper tax on all there sales. Paying the employees cash under the table.
It seems where there is cash there is corruption.
I had a conversation with an accountant recently. He is the external auditor for lots of companies.
I asked him did he ever look at the journal roles that come out of the till?
He said he never did for any client, he always use the daily z reads totals.
I asked how did he know if the till wasn’t used and the cash drawer left open for most of the day. Therefore, hiding the days real taking.
He said he didn’t, but was not worried as far as he was concerned he had done his checks!!!
The trouble out there people think it is ok to do. I remember not so long ago a certain priest getting applauded from the pulpit after being caught evading income tax. I remember a TD caught for tax evasion and topping the pole at the next election.
All of this hidden money is money not repaying our national debt, helping the lowest in our society or getting us out of the mess we are in.
Looking forward
The funny thing is my wife getting made redundant, could turn out to be the best thing to happen to us. The package she received was very good and takes the pressure off. We are lucky that the only debt we have is the mortgage, which we can service. We have been talking for a while about another addition to the family, but while my wife was in full employment, it was not a runner, maybe in the New Year we might start trying again.
So at the end of the day, I know I am better off than someone unemployed, but I have taken a substantial pay cut and my wife has lost her job.
I know in reality the pay cuts needed to happen but I will not now or ever apologise for the choices I made in joining the civil service against someone deciding to go the private sector route.
Regards,
Tap.
Ps
I have read on these boards, that the Gards are under-qualified and over paid. In my current role, I work semi-frequently with them. There are good and bad Gards out there, but I would not do there job for all the tea in China.12
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In fairness tap28 you cant claim that you didnt see the cuts coming. You are right in stating that the Government should have forewarned you, but what would have happened then? The Unions would have pulled a hissy fit and gone on strike, and then kept on periodically striking until last Wednesday. As it stands everyone knew there were cuts coming and if you didn't see that then I would be forced to think that you were intentionally ignoring the hard times coming.
Now I don't feel you have to apologize to anyone for joining the Civil Service. However what you seriously need to realize is that everyone else pays your wages through tax. When public servants go out on strike your basically demanding that private sector workers be taxed more to pay for your lifestyle. This is just not good enough. You do seem to have a more balanced view of this issue than many posters here though, in fairness.
I cant really comment on the rest as its a lot of allegation. Yes, if there is any malpractice going on it should be fixed. However you seem to be pointing your finger at wrongdoers, and using them as an excuse for not having your pay cut. This is untenable. Everyone should be tackled but being realistic a crack down on bankers and tax defaulters would probably cost as much money as it would yield. In the interim all the government can do is reduce wages in bad times, just as they raised wages in good times.0 -
@tap28
firstly thanks for an insightful post, please do realize that alot of people here including myself realize that stereotyping wont get us far, and we need the public/civil sectors for a functioning society
where we diverge is the level of pay thats "entitled" to. notice i didnt use the word "earned", since we the public ended up paying more thru taxation which you administer for no more productivity.
secondly as a company auditor taxation expert
what would honestly you have to say about a company which (numbers plucked out of thin air, but should be representative of state of country):
* makes 35,000 euro a year in income thru trading
* pays out 25,000 in salaries
* pays another 35,000 in other costs
and
* borrows the difference at high interest from local loan shark, the company somehow expects to return to high sales as per original but now obviously obsolete business plan
the company recently cut its salaries to 23,000 and few K of other costs, but the money save will go straight out to pay the interest only to the loan sharks
what would you call such a company?
bankrupt??
and before you answer replace the company with <Ireland Inc> and remember that you are an employee of this sinking ship
finally as a parent, remember that your child when she grows up will have to pay (i presume you want her to be in employment like any parent would) for the money borrowed to pay you current salary + interest
do you want to bestow that burden on your child?0 -
Of course I saw the cut coming, but in my opinion until it is quantified you can't budget, you live in fear that it might be much worse or in the hope it won't happen. Surely that is just human emotion not rational taking over.
While I think the unions are useless and strikes are a waste to time and money, I truly believe everyone has the human right to strike/withdraw there labour.
Seriously "if there is malpractice going on" Anbackor, bogus non resident accounts, offshore accounts, single premium insurance payment, these were all hugely corrupt scams, that defrauded the country of hundreds of millions if not billions. And that’s just the one we have come across so far. Revenue publishes a tax defaulters list every 3 months, not in work now so not 100% sure but the last list show €17m in additional taxes, interest and penalties collected.
I don't think I said anything about using the "wrongdoers" as an excuse for not having your pay cut, but now that you mention it if these people defrauding the state were brought to heel, it might mean we would not have to reduce child benefit. Good point
With regard the cost; there are 4 people in unit I work in (including myself). Approx €150k in total wages, total expenses €12k to 15€. Last year my unit brought in over €3million in under declared taxes, interest and penalties.
But even if it did, cost, as much is it not the obligation of any government to uphold its laws. If a Garda cost €60k per year is he still not obliged to investigate some old lady’s handbag being stolen?
With regard to "In the interim all the government can do is reduce wages in bad times, just as they raised wages in good times" I agree completely.
Will be back later, have to feed baby.0 -
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I applaud Lenihan for last weeks budget.
Hes the only leader in FF at the moment.
The bearded union leaders are selfserving idiots with only themselves to blame for these cuts. Public sector was given good increases in benchmarking in return for reform. Last week the unions were promising reform in return for lower cuts (more days off). The gig is up.
By the way 52,000 + 7000 for a collage drop out is incredible. If I was you I would not be highlighting this point and then looking for sympathy or at least empathy.
Also not everyone in the private sector is an account and make loads of money during the boom. I made very little in my job with my collage degree in science and I could only wish for a salary ¾ of yours.0 -
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I stopped reading there. You're honestly whinging about receiving €59,000 per year?
I don't get it either. Why complain when you're better off than most private-sector workers, and many other sector workers too.
I certainly don't begrudge him his salary or expect him to apologize for it. I have family members who used to work in revenue, so I know how hard the people in revenue work. I would say his salary is about right for the kind of work he does. I just can't understand why people can't just simply be thankful for what they have and realize how fortunate they are to be in the position that they are in.0 -
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You get paid more than fairly for the qualifications and experience you have, whats wrong with that? Going on strike while being paid this much is a despicable act imo. The pension levy isnt a cut btw you have to pay for your pension in the real world.
You're in a great financial position and sound like you have a fantastic family life, you really dont know how lucky you are.0 -
I stopped reading there. You're honestly whinging about receiving €59,000 per year?
I didn't read it as whinging - I read it that he was putting his cards on the table up front.
tap58 - I have friends in both the public and private service. I despair when I hear about some of the work practises in the public service, yet my friends in the public service are gobsmacked when they hear that I don't get paid overtime. People complain that the government are pitting one against the other, but that doesn't require an awful lot of work. Each sector seems to be alien to the other, and I think the unions play a large part in this.
Yes, the unions have saved society from sending children up chimneys, yes the unions have stopped employers beating us with sticks to make us work faster, but they have gone beyond the role of protecting workers from cruel employers, and taken themselves into arenas for no apparent purpose other than self-aggrandisement.
As you're in the revenue, take a look at the flat rate expenses list. From reading them I have to assume that they all came about through the offices of unions, and some of them are completely ludicrous. An example I was showing someone recently was the fact that nurses get 3 different rates of flat expense. The first is for nurses who have to buy and launder their own uniforms OK. The second is for nurses who are provided with uniforms, but do their own laundry. The third is an amount of money, albeit smaller than the other two, for people who neither pay for, nor launder, their own uniforms.
People in the private sector reading this think "WTF - I buy and launder all my own clothes and that's not deemed worthy of a special allowance - do they think the rest of us go to work naked?". It can be argued that due to the nature of the job, and a desire not to spread bugs, it makes sense to ensure that hospital uniforms are cleaned frequently. But the third allowance seems to be a sop to the ones who don't have to worry about that, but complained that it wasn't fair other people got some extra money, and they got nothing (even though they had no reason for the allowance).
So yes, it would be lovely if some employers didn't pay people under the table, and evade taxes in other ways. But it would also be nice if some employees didn't deliberately "save" tasks for later in the day so that they automatically becomes overtime. And it would be lovely if unions could concentrate on maintaining good conditions for good workers, and stop protecting the useless sod who spends half the day contemplating his navel.0 -
Ive worked in practice for 12 years.
Oh the poor Revenue workers. The guys when you phone up to make queries that then fall into a black hole. The guys that are always out sick when you are following up said queries.
Need a refund of some sort ? Give the revenue a kidney first. Even that may not be enough.
Ye did'nt receive a big enough cut in my opinion, for the lack of work ye do.0 -
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I didn't read it as whinging - I read it that he was putting his cards on the table up front.
tap58 - I have friends in both the public and private service. I despair when I hear about some of the work practises in the public service, yet my friends in the public service are gobsmacked when they hear that I don't get paid overtime. People complain that the government are pitting one against the other, but that doesn't require an awful lot of work. Each sector seems to be alien to the other, and I think the unions play a large part in this.
Yes, the unions have saved society from sending children up chimneys, yes the unions have stopped employers beating us with sticks to make us work faster, but they have gone beyond the role of protecting workers from cruel employers, and taken themselves into arenas for no apparent purpose other than self-aggrandisement.
As you're in the revenue, take a look at the flat rate expenses list. From reading them I have to assume that they all came about through the offices of unions, and some of them are completely ludicrous. An example I was showing someone recently was the fact that nurses get 3 different rates of flat expense. The first is for nurses who have to buy and launder their own uniforms OK. The second is for nurses who are provided with uniforms, but do their own laundry. The third is an amount of money, albeit smaller than the other two, for people who neither pay for, nor launder, their own uniforms.
People in the private sector reading this think "WTF - I buy and launder all my own clothes and that's not deemed worthy of a special allowance - do they think the rest of us go to work naked?". It can be argued that due to the nature of the job, and a desire not to spread bugs, it makes sense to ensure that hospital uniforms are cleaned frequently. But the third allowance seems to be a sop to the ones who don't have to worry about that, but complained that it wasn't fair other people got some extra money, and they got nothing (even though they had no reason for the allowance).
So yes, it would be lovely if some employers didn't pay people under the table, and evade taxes in other ways. But it would also be nice if some employees didn't deliberately "save" tasks for later in the day so that they automatically becomes overtime. And it would be lovely if unions could concentrate on maintaining good conditions for good workers, and stop protecting the useless sod who spends half the day contemplating his navel.
That just makes him an upfront delusional winger.
He is paid 20,000 more than the industrial average. He should be singing about how lucky he is rather than coming on here expecting people to emapthise with him and his misfortune of a pay cut.0 -
Ive worked in practice for 12 years.
Oh the poor Revenue workers. The guys when you phone up to make queries that then fall into a black hole. The guys that are always out sick when you are following up said queries.
Need a refund of some sort ? Give the revenue a kidney first. Even that may not be enough.
Ye did'nt receive a big enough cut in my opinion, for the lack of work ye do.
I have dealt with Revenue for the last 15 years. I have to honestly say, they've always struck me as highly professional and just plain decent individuals.
On one occasion we had an audit with Revenue and the guy gave us some great advice on tax matters. It always struck me that Enterprise Ireland could use some of the real business expertise that is found in Revenue.
I've found that if you treat them professionally and with respect, they are the good guys. Over the years, I've found that those who complain about "mistreatment" from revenue have poor standards of record keeping or are simply trying to avoid tax.0 -
c montgomery wrote: »That just makes him an upfront delusional winger.
He is paid 20,000 more than the industrial average. He should be singing about how lucky he is rather than coming on here expecting people to emapthise with him and his misfortune of a pay cut.
How much over the "industrial average" would you expect an auditor with a degree in taxation to earn?0 -
I have dealt with Revenue for the last 15 years. I have to honestly say, they've always struck me as highly professional and just plain decent individuals.
On one occasion we had an audit with Revenue and the guy gave us some great advice on tax matters. It always struck me that Enterprise Ireland could use some of the real business expertise that is found in Revenue.
I've found that if you treat them professionally and with respect, they are the good guys. Over the years, I've found that those who complain about "mistreatment" from revenue have poor standards of record keeping or are simply trying to avoid tax.
I would say that person was the exception rather than the norm my friend.0 -
tap thanks for your post. I certainly don't see it as whinging and I appreciate where you are coming from. In all my dealings with Government departments I believe the Revenue is a template the rest should be modelled on. They are extremely efficient and professional.
What has been obvious to a lot of us for years is the work practices of an awful lot of the Public Service needed to be restructured and updated. I hope that's the next step that's taken and this time they don't care about getting the unions permission to proceed.0 -
I'm not sure if I misunderstood something or people just didn't read the post.
I didn't get the impression he was whinging, his points were valid.
Excellent post Tap
p.s.
I was curious as to your comments about the CSO and the holiday camps? Would you mind to elaborate on this please?
I have relatives in Revenue, Health, Guards etc. and everything you said seems to correlate with what they have said.
Why do you think there is such a gap in standards between Revenue and other organisations?
Revenue are renowned as the most efficient public organisation in the state from all quarters.
What could they pass onto these other organisations that would be of benefit?0 -
All I'd say to the OP is, judging the work that any individual does in the public service is not or should not be relevant to the bigger discussion. However on any medium term timeframe the gov. must balance the books for day to spending if not it will be sabotaging the futures of the up and coming generation. So it has to be a mixture of everything, welfare savings, pay cuts staff cuts and privatisation where possible.
A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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Dannyboy83 wrote: »... Why do you think there is such a gap in standards between Revenue and other organisations?
Revenue are renowned as the most efficient public organisation in the state from all quarters.
What could they pass onto these other organisations that would be of benefit?
It goes with the nature of the work that Revenue are less accessible to political representations or interference than just about any other section of our public administration.
Interestingly, the work of the CSO does not lend itself readily to political interference either, and I think it is generally accepted that they, too, perform very well.
At the other extreme, our health system has been subjected to political interference at all levels, and it is now an apparently unmanageable mess.0 -
"It seems where there is cash there is corruption."
God wonder who else used to be cash only, and have a book out at the moment.
And you voted in.0 -
Ok I don't know where to start; there have been quite a few responses since I last was on the web.
I
'm not going to respond to each comment, as I would be here all night, but will try to hopefully cover jist of them.
In my opinion some were reasoned, whether agreeing with me or not, some were just venting and some were just trying to have a go and get a reaction.
It was not my intention to come across as whining, as someone later said, I was just stating my current position. I was trying to honest.
Yes, you are right I did drop out of one course. However, you seem to have ignored my degree and professional qualification. Don't know why?
Just to clear it up, I'm not a union fan. I do see a role for them as some sort of watchdog re employee’s rights, but they have gone beyond the role they were set up for.
I have had trouble mobile phone operators and seemed to be on hold forever with a digital TV provider. **** service is **** service and should be improved.
I don't see what the industrial average is relevant, it is what it is, an average, you would have to have people above it and below, or else have everyone on exactly the same, to be an average.
To Dannyboy 83, I have struggled with 2 of you questions:
Why do you think there is such a gap in standards between Revenue and other organisations?
What could they pass onto these other organisations that would be of benefit?
I think it comes down to many factors some of the most relevant are:
The ethos of the organisation going back over many years.
Working in the real world, I spend most of my time interacting with the public in all types of industries, big and small. It broadens the mind. In some departments, they wouldn't interact with the public from one end of the year to another, I don't know if that is healthy. I do wonder sometimes if there is a mind set of "well this is the way we always did it".
The tax code changes every year, this means the organisation changes of get left behind. So change is always there.
Saying all that it's not all singing all dancing, it's not perfect and the organisation got its arse handed to it on a plate with the revelations of the bogus non-resident accounts type scams. Its reaction to this was, vast changes to the way it did its business and in my opinion that only comes good management and willing staff, everyone to pull in the same direction.
With regards family life and great financial position, I do know how lucky I am, but my wife just lost her job and next month we are down half the income we had last month. However, we are trying to think of the positives that can come from this enforced and unwelcome change.
Regards,
Tap0 -
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