scamming the social welfare

Rev. BlueJeans

Maybe not corrupt in many cases, but certainly a blind eye has been turned by our local equivalent for years.

Maybe he's acting out of charitable motives, maybe he's the antithesis of the man from Del Monte, in that he always says yes, but still...

Plenty of folk within Revenue out auditing small business atm, more so than ever before-the farmers tell a similiar story-why not use these surplus staff to tackle the issue of revenue fraud-instant returns while reform is teased out?

monkeypants

murphaph wrote: »

It costs money to imprison anyone for any crime, but it has to be used to serve as a deterrant surely?! It costs the same 1k (or whatever) to imprison a murderer, but we suck it up and imprison them. If we didn't have an effective penalty well........

Absolutely. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it. And I agree that the language that Hanafin used was more ambiguous than necessary to give a real number. She probably doesn't know off the top of her head. Besides, if she really wants to save the taxpayer money, she could always give up her teaching job.

97i9y3941

monkeypants wrote: »

I'm all for dealing with this, but what do you do with them once you catch them, bar stopping the payments? You can fine them, which they probably won't be able to pay, or you can jail them at a cost of €1k+ per week. *

* This may not be an accurate figure, it's just the one that's always quoted.

it just go around again,instance its well known that big time criminals are entilted to it since they have "no income"..

KC JONES

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

It galls me to the core, but I have an immediate family member who has been on the lang for years, working on the side while claiming benefits for a very large household.

I can do nothing about it, as the fallout would be severe (note the word immediate-no qualms about saying it here-as few know my RL name), but it is rather frustrating to say the least. Same individual promoted their line of work through some advertising and sporting sponsorship when times were good, so fair to say that a blind eye was and is being turned, at least in this instance. I gather that the welfare were aware of the situation too, and I have that on very good authority.

How many more cases like this are out there?

you could report them anonymously

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So. Tis Monday lunchtime. Plenty of time to have gotten through to what I'd well believe are some pretty jammed phonelines! Anyone care to tell us how it went?

Form an orderly queue, people....

SamuelFox

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So. Tis Monday lunchtime. Plenty of time to have gotten through to what I'd well believe are some pretty jammed phonelines! Anyone care to tell us how it went?

Form an orderly queue, people....

I work nights, so the earliest I'll get to phone is Wednesday. Seems like your in a crimefighting mood, you want to do a few vigilante patrols to keep you active while you're waiting to see how we get on?

Rev. BlueJeans

KC JONES wrote: »

you could report them anonymously

I know that dude.

The fallout is in relation to other family members, not myself. I wouldn't have any qualms about telling them to their face that I had reported them, were that not the case, I feel so strongly about it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SamuelFox wrote: »

I work nights, so the earliest I'll get to phone is Wednesday. Seems like your in a crimefighting mood, you want to do a few vigilante patrols to keep you active while you're waiting to see how we get on?

Yes, Kent, yes I do!

skearon

cool_jerk wrote: »

What slimeball would be happy to report welfare cheaters for a reward...

Translation: It's every law abiding citizen's duty to report the slimeballs who commit welfare fraud.

donkey balls

Question why was this issue not tackled during the so called good years when we had a very low unemployment rate. also i remember a couple of years ago they paid you directly into your bank account without having to sign on every week.

bigeasyeah

Did you report anyone?

danois

looks like the government is trying to do something about it

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

danman

gcgirl wrote: »

18 yr olds that would be a very small % of claimants??? My ex pays zero towards his kids and to be quite honest i rather cope on my own than seek a penny off the B'stard he is on his 4th child and as far as i can gather he is not working and claiming his interest relief and gets his dole while his other half works in some hotel !! thats what i call a scammer!

gcgirl, this isn't a personal attack, every situation is different.

I've often wondered how there are so many single mothers with no fathers on the scene.

When I was a young lad and free and single, I never left the house without a condom. Even when I eventually settled down with my now wife, I used a condom, simply because I didn't want a child at that stage. I knew I couldn't afford one then.

Are condoms so hard to find these days? When I was in my 20's it was a lot harder, but I still managed to get them.

As for fathers not paying their way, I don't give a ****e how much of a scumbag he is, If he has a child, he should pay for it. Why should I pay my tax so he doesn't have to pay for his 4 children?

I actually think this country needs an agency to chase fathers who do not pay their way, similar to in the UK.
We also need legislation to make it law for the fathers name to be on the birth cert. An application should go through the courts to keep a fathers name off the cert, only in exceptional circumstances. This works well in other countries.

We all know of families scamming the system.
A woman in her 30's that I know of, has 4 children by 4 men, she lives with her boyfriend in a lovely council house. She has never had a job in her life to pay her own way.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but why should she be entitled to live off my taxes, just because she made a lifestyle choice.

monkeypants

danois wrote: »

looks like the government is trying to do something about it

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

Will only work if you have a bank account. Just do what an ex-Minister for Finance did and just don't have one. Or if you do have a salary, get it paid into someone else's account each week/month. Cash is your friend.

The majority of rules only inconvenience people who obey the rules. Dedicated people get around the rules.

smokinp

Social welfare fraud is wrong fullstop..

The ones i would blame here are the government.. We had year after year when there was nearly full employment and that was the time to weed out the fraudsters..
Trying to do it now is typical of this current regime..
Blame the people on the street..
What about the clowns in the banks, financial reg etc that got us into this mess ?

As regards reporting people...
SNITCH...
Let the government find them..

P. Breathnach

smokinp wrote: »

Social welfare fraud is wrong fullstop..

...As regards reporting people...
SNITCH...
Let the government find them..

And how can the government do that?

RedPlanet

I know of a few people scamming like this:
They rent a 2 bed room apartment and have both bedrooms decorated in such a way that the inspector thinks they are both single with their own bedrooms. But in fact it is just a ruse. They are co-habiting and should be listed as such.
Now i could "report" them.. but so what?
It's my word against theirs, and besides someone from the dole or healthboard had called out to the residence and did their job and signed-off, right?
How could they prove that the people are actually cohabiting, hire a private investigator?

(nevermind that they are fully able-bodied and capable of actually working, if they bothered to get off their arses to look for a job)

smokinp

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And how can the government do that?

There are people employed for this..

Would save a lot of more money if they went after the fat cats avoiding tax..

What kind of a society do we want to end up living in?
One where people are rewarded for snitching on their neighbours?
Sounds like China to me...

gcgirl

danman wrote: »

gcgirl, this isn't a personal attack, every situation is different.

I've often wondered how there are so many single mothers with no fathers on the scene.

When I was a young lad and free and single, I never left the house without a condom. Even when I eventually settled down with my now wife, I used a condom, simply because I didn't want a child at that stage. I knew I couldn't afford one then.

Are condoms so hard to find these days? When I was in my 20's it was a lot harder, but I still managed to get them.

As for fathers not paying their way, I don't give a ****e how much of a scumbag he is, If he has a child, he should pay for it. Why should I pay my tax so he doesn't have to pay for his 4 children?

I actually think this country needs an agency to chase fathers who do not pay their way, similar to in the UK.
We also need legislation to make it law for the fathers name to be on the birth cert. An application should go through the courts to keep a fathers name off the cert, only in exceptional circumstances. This works well in other countries.

We all know of families scamming the system.
A woman in her 30's that I know of, has 4 children by 4 men, she lives with her boyfriend in a lovely council house. She has never had a job in her life to pay her own way.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but why should she be entitled to live off my taxes, just because she made a lifestyle choice.

I do agree that some people just have no ambition in life just depend on the social to provide i know a few but then i know a few that work their asses off and are a example to all of us and to be honest for a lot of us its not as clean cut i myself are caring for 3 people in my family between old age /disabilities so i am fairly worked up between them all! stress lol !
But usually its a cycle just repeating itself from their parents and the fact they were never encouraged to go on and finish school in the first place!

Lemondrop kid

I know a guy who defrauded 100 million euro from what turned out to be the state coffers.
What was his name now, Fitz-something...

Anyway, lets go round up them bloody dole heads

Rev. BlueJeans

smokinp wrote: »

Social welfare fraud is wrong fullstop..

The ones i would blame here are the government.. We had year after year when there was nearly full employment and that was the time to weed out the fraudsters..
Trying to do it now is typical of this current regime..
Blame the people on the street..
What about the clowns in the banks, financial reg etc that got us into this mess ?

As regards reporting people...
SNITCH...
Let the government find them..

I'm not disagreeing with you for a moment, but, and I know it's a well used phrase, full employment is something we never had in this country, as there were 100k plus (excluding those on the welfare for genuine reasons) who never lifted a finger when jobs were there for the taking.

Bertie and the boys (and the rest of us!) chose to ignore that for various reasons.

gcgirl

Lemondrop kid wrote: »

I know a guy who defrauded 100 million euro from what turned out to be the state coffers.
What was his name now, Fitz-something...

Anyway, lets go round up them bloody dole heads

oh and he lives in G'Stones !!

smelltheglove

i know of a few that have been caught by it, ones I wasnt aware of until they were caught. When I was a single mother people used tot ell me to get whatever I could from the state, but no I didnt, I claimed what I was entitled to and along with working hard (and connections in a bank) I bought my own house. I even tried to buy an affordable house, the girl at the counter told me I didnt earn enough for it and actually told me I would be better off giving up work and claiming rent allowance and dole and what ever else I could, I was heartbroken but I still told the girl I would rather provide for my child myself.

2 that I know of, now I dont have details like surnames or addresses in one case I dont know them at all, 1 is a couple who have been together 10+ yrs with a child of around 7, he earns around 70k, I know as he worked with my husband earning almost double what my husband did, drives a bmw, she was a manager, stood down to work part time, works when the child is in school, now gets rent allowance for a 3 bed house they live in together along with lone parents. I know people who know these so I am sure they have been reported. The second one is a father with joint custody who has a 3 bed social house, got together with a girl int he same estate with a social house and kids and they decided to move in together. Guess what they did, they rented the spare house out to foreigners, I dont know anything about these but this is the extent the fraud can go to.

Ones I knwo who were caught were claiming for years, one lived with her business man partner and kids, new cars and a second house yet still claimed lone parents. Another same living with partner and kids and claimed lone parents, she was caught when he reported her after a bitter split. Another partner and kids and social house and lone parents.

Its a lot more regular than people think. Although sometimes people assume, when I bought my house I was reported, probably jealousy I think i know who reported me, but I was doing nothign wrong and it was all cleared up very quickly.

monkeypants

From reading all this I'm wondering if the problem is that people aren't giving out the correct information on the forms or if people aren't reading the forms once submitted.

I had to go on the dole in September. I went online and printed out the seven-page form. That was filled out in preparation and includes my fiancee's details as well. On my first visit to the office, they would only make an appointment and gave me a four-page form to fill out. I filled that one out too and on the day of my appointment, I had to fill out two one-page forms in addition.

In total, I submitted thirteen pages of detail from my life.

Now my question is this: I'm just a regular, single bloke. Had a job for years, paid loads of tax. Have a mortgage. No kids yet. All standard stuff. Vanilla, if you like. Why does an application from me require not just one form, but four? Does any of it ever get verified?

murphaph

Just to clarify for the proletariat...

Social welfare theft is wrong and steals money and services from those who really need it.

Tax evasion is wrong and steals money and services from those who really need it.

The two aren't mutually exclusive FFS. Report benefit thieves. Report tax cheats.

murphaph

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with you for a moment, but, and I know it's a well used phrase, full employment is something we never had in this country, as there were 100k plus (excluding those on the welfare for genuine reasons) who never lifted a finger when jobs were there for the taking.

Bertie and the boys (and the rest of us!) chose to ignore that for various reasons.

So true. But the dept. should be looking more closely at anyone who never worked a day during the boom as against a newly unemployed person as the likelihood is that the 'old hand' might just be up to no good. They should of course have been targetting people on the dole during a time when we were allowing mass immigration to fill jobs that did exist.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

danman wrote: »

....

A woman in her 30's that I know of, has 4 children by 4 men, she lives with her boyfriend in a lovely council house. She has never had a job in her life to pay her own way.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but why should she be entitled to live off my taxes, just because she made a lifestyle choice.

BEACSUE YOU BLOODY WELL LET HER!

gurramok

billy the squid wrote: »

Doesn't that make you complicit given you didn't pick up the phone and shop them?

Pointless. Its very hard to prove that the fathers are indeed living there. Believe me, i've reported a case and thats the response I got. All legal in their eyes and they need hard proof to cut them off.

It needs stronger legislation to stamp it out and reducing the benefits will help to discourage the baby generating scammers.

AlekSmart

It needs stronger legislation to stamp it out and reducing the benefits will help to discourage the baby generating scammers.

And what a productive group they are...

I wonder if any statistics exist regarding the fecundity of the 18-30 year old welfare dependant prople as opposed to the same group in employment ?

I retain a certain regard for the ease with which "Young Mum`s" can produce successive offspring with nary a care in their world about providing materially for those children.
I have somewhat less regard for the "Young Dad`s" whose main passtime appears to be concocting ever more incredulous stories to put to a District Justice in order to be allowed remain at large to provide for their latest new Babby.

It appears to be a defining aspect of the Modern Young Irishperson as opposed to yer average Germin,Spaniard or Pole......

monkeypants

They certainly are fertile.

Does the amount of benefit go up for each child? I mean, X for child one, 2X +10 for child two, 3X + 20 for child three, etc.

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't have kids and I don't plan on having any before I get a job. Plenty of free time to look after them, but I'd fill all that time with worrying about money...