I give up on the Irish people

Sandvich

Looking at this forum I see insane volumes of apathetic apologists, and far too many right wing "hard knock life" themed posts.

It was a rough budget. Just because a decision is "tough" does not make it correct, and when your main argument is that people are immature moaners for not accepting it, it becomes more and more obvious you're compensating for something.

It makes me sick because the people who are saying the budget was fair, are obviously not being affected by it and are passing nasty sweeping remarks against people who got in situations they couldn't predict. Conveniently, it always has to be "their" fault. People don't seem to be angry at corrupt bankers or the wasteful, incompetent government anymore. No, it's all our fault, and especially anyone on welfare, or a public servant, or anyone that uses a credit card ever that isn't rich.

Not everyone is completely competent with their finances, nor can you expect them to be. Yet some little scumbags here are acting like they're MORALLY WRONG for not keeping their bookkeeping in order - yet the people who's JOB it actually is to do and screwed up royally are being forgotten about.

It just goes to show how little the average Irish person gives a care about people other than themselves. There is no intellectual honesty in these arguments. These are tough times, but it's no excuse for the level of gullibility and lack of compassion and logical reason some people are coming out with.

There are people who were already thoroughly boned and are now even more so because of it. I'm tired of reading posts that are WELL MY WIFE IS DOWN 6% BUT IT WAS A FAIR BUDGET WE THINK. I do not give a **** about you and your wife. I give a crap about the people who are down 6% and now can't repay their mortgage or loans like they expected. Of course I see lads like Donegalfella saying how that's not what welfare is no. Well, you know what, saying "THIS ISN'T WHAT IT'S MEANT FOR" isn't a very good argument. The argument is the bit where you actually explain why. Welfare is a good cash injection back into the comedy and no matter how much you think something is or isn't meant, it matters what it can be best used for in this situation. The lack of grasp these people have on the idea of "utility" is astonishing. People on the right end of the spectrum, socially and economically, always like to hide behind their ideas instead of defending them. "TOUGH TIMES" is not an argument, "CAPITALISM" is not an argument, "RESPONSIBILITY" is not an argument.

If the economy collapses then all our efforts to bail the government out will be for naught.

I can't stress enough how someone disagreeing with a "tough" decision, even one less tough than expected, isn't in automatically the wrong. Otherwise all you have to do is make a bunch of dumb, harsh decisions, call them tough, and get away with not thinking very hard about it. Solving this mess would require a level of actual work which our TDs and economists don't seem to want to put in.

The worst thing of all is when certain people say we should just shut up and put up, and not be at each other's throats, it'll never be good for the economy. What this has done is revealed a far more sinister side to the Irish social conscience, a malign, selfish entity with a false sense of what's "practical".

I understand I am by no means an economic expert, but the ones I do know don't seem to quite align with the supposed ones on this forum. There are so many basic economic principles going out the window, as well as a lack of sense - if young people are only getting 100 euro a week, what are they meant to do? I can understand some decisions in the budget, but this is just crazy. The main justification for it seems to be that typical right wing GET A JOB HIPPIE kind of drivel, which isn't practical, obviously, in a recession.

There aren't jobs out there for them, and most places in education are taken up - the government are even looking to cut some! We're going to end up with a lot either leaving the country or becoming a bigger burden on their parents. When young people have less money and independance, local business is going to suffer too. What's so great about keeping the country slightly more afloat if half the local businesses nearly go under?

The social attitudes here are an even bigger long term problem than the debt we're in. I don't think there's much point continuing to argue in this forum, there are too many people with a smug sense of self righteousness that think because they found the budget not to be harsh, that nobody else should. That's what it comes down to. I expect however some smug, smarmy posts about how everyone needs to "cop on" and accept being ****ed in the ass with another 1000 "thanks" from various people that deserve a slap.

Jarren

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/4/4/633744000780803010-realization.jpg

Sandvich

I forgot to add that motivators and appeal to ridicule, or just about anything that originates from 4chan or Internet Tough Guy culture, are also most certainly not an argument(for either side).

Dr_Phil

Sandvich wrote: »

I give a crap about the people who are down 6% and now can't repay their mortgage or loans like they expected.

Sorry, it was too long to read so I stopped right here^

Exceuse me OP, but if someone's taking such a big mortgage or loan that the repayments can be in danger if the income changes only 6% is no one else but fool in my opinion.

Therefore, I would not give a damn sh*te, just because they get what they deserve.

Sandvich

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Sorry, it was too long to read so I stopped right here^

Exceuse me OP, but if someone's taking such a big mortgage or loan that the repayments can be in danger if the income changes only 6% is no one else but fool in my opinion.

Therefore, I would not give a damn sh*te, just because they get what they deserve.

It was too long for you, and you seem to be siding with the jobbos with a skewed view of "Personality responsibility".

This kind of proves my point - the "hard knock life" crowd here are nowhere near as intellectual as they like to think. If you were, you'd have read my post no problem and disected it.

Get what they deserve my ass. Can you not tell how the tone of that comes off to people who don't share your "ideology"? Nothing nice, that's for sure.

I'd love to see you in that situation - the fact is you can't comprehend how anyone honest could end up in that situation because not only are you a borderline sociopath, you also don't have the balls to accept that fact and admit you're a bad person for feeling that way. This represents for me the sinister side of Irish culture I was talking about.

6% is a lot when you're on 40,000 a year. Now should be a time for compassion and understanding for those hardest hit, not some ridiculous contest of who can be the biggest asshole to people that don't deserve it.

gerry28

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Sorry, it was too long to read so I stopped right here^

Exceuse me OP, but if someone's taking such a big mortgage or loan that the repayments can be in danger if the income changes only 6% is no one else but fool in my opinion.

Therefore, I would not give a damn sh*te, just because they get what they deserve.

This response and your username do not tally

INSCOPE

I read your post and you just sound very bitter.

Flex

Sandvich wrote: »

It was too long for you, and you seem to be siding with the jobbos with a skewed view of "Personality responsibility".

This kind of proves my point - the "hard knock life" crowd here are nowhere near as intellectual as they like to think. If you were, you'd have read my post no problem and disected it.

Get what they deserve my ass. I'd love to see you in that situation - the fact is you can't comprehend how anyone honest could end up in that situation because not only are you a borderline sociopath, you also don't have the balls to accept that fact. This represents for me the sinister side of Irish culture I was talking about.

6% is a lot when you're on 40,000 a year.

Doesnt the government have like a debisend... or degimet... or deficit (I cant remember those big higgledy-piggledy eck-o-nomics words) of €26,000,000,000 or something that they said was a bad thing that they had to sort out?

kaymin

Sandvich wrote: »

I forgot to add that motivators and appeal to ridicule, or just about anything that originates from 4chan or Internet Tough Guy culture, are also most certainly not an argument(for either side).

Sandvich, how do you suppose the government balances the books? Yes its a tough budget. It's correct from the point of view that it goes someway to matching tax take with expenditure. The money to pay for social welfare has to come from somewhere and at the moment it is being borrowed. We won't be able to borrow it unless it is clear that we will be able to repay it (i.e. if we balance the books). Increasing the tax burden on the productive sector will not work because it won't be worth the effort working anymore.

Sandvich

Flex wrote: »

Doesnt the government have like a debisend... or degimet... or deficit (I cant remember those big higgledy-piggledy eck-o-nomics words) of €26,000,000,000 or something that they said was a bad thing that they had to sort out?

I dunno, I hear there's this thing called "Personal debt" which is a million times worse, but I'm sure that's all a conspiracy to make the government look bad. After all, what the government tells us is best to happen must always be true, that's why they've made so many great decisions in the past.

Sandvich

kaymin wrote: »

Sandvich, how do you suppose the government balances the books? Yes its a tough budget. It's correct from the point of view that it goes someway to matching tax take with expenditure. The money to pay for social welfare has to come from somewhere and at the moment it is being borrowed. We won't be able to borrow it unless it is clear that we will be able to repay it (i.e. if we balance the books). Increasing the tax burden on the productive sector will not work because it won't be worth the effort working anymore.

I'm mainly taking issues with the ridiculous cuts to welfare for people under 24, and also the poor scaling of the public sector pay cuts, but most of all the extreme lack of sympathy towards those worse affected. It's like people aren't entitled to feel hard done by, and of course the cheeky ****ers saying this are the ones who generally aren't that badly hit.

Again, the government can still afford to be in debt more than the average person can. That's national debt vs. personal debt. Cuts are the lazy way to deal with this and besides - when has cutting out of a recession worked?

If you ask me we should have swallowed our pride and begged another EU state who actually has some concept of efficiency to sort us out. If you can appeal in a manner that makes Ireland look like a worthwhile future investment, that is. But if we're filled with assholes they might not bother.

skelliser

the next instalment for the anglo blackhole also has to come from somewhere!
and over a year on and still no criminal or commercial court fraud cases!

and where is missers fitzpatrick and co, teeing of in portugal

INSCOPE

skelliser wrote: »

the next instalment for the anglo blackhole also has to come from somewhere!
and over a year on and still no criminal or commercial court fraud cases!

Has anyone ever been convicted of white collar crime in Ireland?

Flex

Sandvich wrote: »

I'm mainly taking issues with the ridiculous cuts to welfare for people under 24, and also the poor scaling of the public sector pay cuts, but most of all the extreme lack of sympathy towards those worse affected. It's like people aren't entitled to feel hard done by, and of course the cheeky ****ers saying this are the ones who generally aren't that badly hit.

Again, the government can still afford to be in debt more than the average person can. That's national debt vs. personal debt. Cuts are the lazy way to deal with this and besides - when has cutting out of a recession worked?

If you ask me we should have swallowed our pride and begged another EU state who actually has some concept of efficiency to sort us out.

I thought (feel free to correct me on this if Im wrong, someone) that during the 1980's the government spent spent spent and borrowed to finance its spending which made things worse and had tax rates at over 60%, and things didnt start to turn around until public spending began to be cut? And when income tax was raised in April didnt the governments tax revenue drop significantly, implying taxes are around the point of diminishing returns?

As for begging the EU to sort us out, do you know whats happening in Latvia at the moment, another EU country?

Do you have any suggestions at all in how to fund the deficit, other than taking the easy ultra-righteous-moral-high-ground without any rational suggestions (apart from "just keep borrowing" or "dont trust the government")?

Dr_Phil

Sandvich wrote: »

I'd love to see you in that situation

I will not give you this opportunity.

kaymin

Sandvich wrote: »

I'm mainly taking issues with the ridiculous cuts to welfare for people under 24, and also the poor scaling of the public sector pay cuts, but most of all the extreme lack of sympathy towards those worse affected. It's like people aren't entitled to feel hard done by, and of course the cheeky ****ers saying this are the ones who generally aren't that badly hit.

Again, the government can still afford to be in debt more than the average person can. That's national debt vs. personal debt. Cuts are the lazy way to deal with this and besides - when has cutting out of a recession worked?

If you ask me we should have swallowed our pride and begged another EU state who actually has some concept of efficiency to sort us out.

Improving efficiency suggests using fewer and / or less expensive people to do the same amount of work since the aim of efficiency improvements is to reduce costs.

I think it's easy for people under 24 to end up in an unemployment trap and therefore any incentive to encourage them to get off the dole is a good incentive even if it means less dole. At that age I was happy to receive any pay since I'd been used to living on effectively nothing.

What scaling of the public sector pay cuts would you suggest? Seemed okay to me since higher earners suffer progressively more.

There is no alternative to cuts since we don't have the reserves to pursue an expansionary policy. As it is we expect to pay €1 for every €5 tax taken on interest on the national debt. If we increase national debt further then this ratio will increase further. In addition, investors will stop lending to us if we pursue this course of action or will do so only at even higher interest rates.

c montgomery

Sandvich wrote: »

I dunno, I hear there's this thing called "Personal debt" which is a million times worse, but I'm sure that's all a conspiracy to make the government look bad. After all, what the government tells us is best to happen must always be true, that's why they've made so many great decisions in the past.

You sound very bitter and one sided. Let me guess, you were affected by these pay cuts yes???

c montgomery

Are you giving up on Irish people because they dont share your views???

MysticalRain

Sandvich wrote: »

6% is a lot when you're on 40,000 a year. Now should be a time for compassion and understanding for those hardest hit, not some ridiculous contest of who can be the biggest asshole to people that don't deserve it.

I think people need to get a grip here. €40,000 is still a pretty good wage. There are 500,000 unemployed people out there who would gladly do your job for much less, and probably a million more struggling to live on far less than 40K. It's funny how the people who seem to complain most are the ones who are not actually that badly off. That's what gets me the most about Irish people these days.

One more thing: if you are struggling to pay your mortgage for the sake of the 6% pay cut, then you have far bigger problems than government cuts. Anyone who takes out a mortgage should at least have had the common sense to plan for unforeseen circumstances -- like a 5-10% pay cut because of an economic downturn. It would seem like the notion of personal responsibility and living within your means has gone out the window in this country. That's my opinion as a center-lefty who despises FF and their right wing buddies.

Guy:Incognito

With the amount mortgages have dropped over the last year due to interest rate drops, how could anyone who wasnt in trouble a year or 18 months ago now not afford to pay their mortgage because of 5 or 6% wage drop?

Plus what about the fact that the economy (and therefore prices) are contracting?

PeakOutput

Sandvich wrote: »

It makes me sick because the people who are saying the budget was fair, are obviously not being affected by it

i am affected by it, i agree with it and i think i should probably be affected more. so the only thingobvious is that you are wrong in that point.

Not everyone is completely competent with their finances, nor can you expect them to be. Yet some little scumbags here are acting like they're MORALLY WRONG for not keeping their bookkeeping in order - yet the people who's JOB it actually is to do and screwed up royally are being forgotten about.

so THEY dont keep THEIR books in order but THEY are NOT to blame?

It just goes to show how little the average Irish person gives a care about people other than themselves. There is no intellectual honesty in these arguments. These are tough times, but it's no excuse for the level of gullibility and lack of compassion and logical reason some people are coming out with.

im far from gullible and i think you will find its the ones that are saying it was tough but fair are the ones with the logical argument and the people saying otherwise are coming from some sort of emotional place with their argument

I'm tired of reading posts that are WELL MY WIFE IS DOWN 6% BUT IT WAS A FAIR BUDGET WE THINK. I do not give a **** about you and your wife.

oh right, so there are people who are affected who agree with it? thats not what you said in your first paragraph? which is it?

The argument is the bit where you actually explain why. [/quote]

people who have no jobs cannot afford a mortgage and neither should they be able to? kinda makes sense to me. people under 24 dont have some magical right to a mortgage just because we have had 20 years of economic growth and irresponsible spending. social welfare is there to keep people from starving and being homeless the dole is one part of that (day to day expenses) rent allowance etc is another part there is no way anyone should expect the dole to cover their mortgage sorry but the goverment cant afford to pay for your house

If the economy collapses then all our efforts to bail the government out will be for naught.

its not the goverment that needs a bailout barring a miracle they are gone at the next general election its the entire country that needs to be fixed

I can't stress enough how someone disagreeing with a "tough" decision, even one less tough than expected, isn't in automatically the wrong. Otherwise all you have to do is make a bunch of dumb, harsh decisions, call them tough, and get away with not thinking very hard about it. Solving this mess would require a level of actual work which our TDs and economists don't seem to want to put in.

of course they are not automatically wrong. they are wrong because their alternatives would lead the the bankruptcy of the state

The worst thing of all is when certain people say we should just shut up and put up, and not be at each other's throats, it'll never be good for the economy. What this has done is revealed a far more sinister side to the Irish social conscience, a malign, selfish entity with a false sense of what's "practical".

I understand I am by no means an economic expert, but the ones I do know don't seem to quite align with the supposed ones on this forum. There are so many basic economic principles going out the window, as well as a lack of sense - if young people are only getting 100 euro a week, what are they meant to do? I can understand some decisions in the budget, but this is just crazy. The main justification for it seems to be that typical right wing GET A JOB HIPPIE kind of drivel, which isn't practical, obviously, in a recession.

well the ones i know(including an lse graduate and employee of the best economics consultancy in the country) all feel that the budget was a step in the right direction

There aren't jobs out there for them, and most places in education are taken up - the government are even looking to cut some! We're going to end up with a lot either leaving the country or becoming a bigger burden on their parents. When young people have less money and independance, local business is going to suffer too. What's so great about keeping the country slightly more afloat if half the local businesses nearly go under?

so do they deserve it more than the over 24's who probably have way way more commitments financially and socially? thats the choice the cut has to come from somewhere

The social attitudes here are an even bigger long term problem than the debt we're in. I don't think there's much point continuing to argue in this forum, there are too many people with a smug sense of self righteousness that think because they found the budget not to be harsh, that nobody else should. That's what it comes down to. I expect however some smug, smarmy posts about how everyone needs to "cop on" and accept being ****ed in the ass with another 1000 "thanks" from various people that deserve a slap.

ah of course the ole everyone else has a problem nugget great point

thebman

skelliser wrote: »

the next instalment for the anglo blackhole also has to come from somewhere!
and over a year on and still no criminal or commercial court fraud cases!

and where is missers fitzpatrick and co, teeing of in portugal

the fraud investigation was extended recently. It takes time. I'm sure nothing will be done but I'm sure something should be done once we have the facts.

Sandvich wrote: »

I'd love to see you in that situation - the fact is you can't comprehend how anyone honest could end up in that situation because not only are you a borderline sociopath, you also don't have the balls to accept that fact and admit you're a bad person for feeling that way. This represents for me the sinister side of Irish culture I was talking about.

Get off your high horse or you'll hurt yourself when you fall. We can all see that it is normal people being let go and becoming unemployed. People have to take some responsibility themselves when these things happen. They should have something put away for when their world caves in especially in the current climate.

If you haven't then you'll have to cut luxuries and talk to your mortgage provider because if there were no consequences to living recklessly, everyone would just do it and expect someone else to bail them out. Eventually there isn't anybody left to bail the rest out.

6% is a lot when you're on 40,000 a year. Now should be a time for compassion and understanding for those hardest hit, not some ridiculous contest of who can be the biggest asshole to people that don't deserve it.

If someone has lost 6% and can't afford their mortgage repayments they should talk to their bank who will try to help them out by letting them pay over a longer term or just pay the interest if they can.

Realistically if you have that kind of financial obligation it is just sheer recklessness to not have anything saved up in case something unexpected comes up.

We were all taught that when we were younger, always be prepared. If your not, you'll have hard decisions to make.

Its unrealistic to expect the rest of society to rescue people from their reckless actions. We try on many occasions like with drug abuse and social welfare for the unemployed but you can't just promise to save them from any situation they might end up in no matter what the cost. There has to be a line that people shouldn't cross.

PeakOutput

Sandvich wrote: »

I dunno, I hear there's this thing called "Personal debt" which is a million times worse.

how is one persons debt a million times worse to the possibility of the destruction of the state?

PeakOutput

Sandvich wrote: »

Again, the government can still afford to be in debt more than the average person can. That's national debt vs. personal debt. Cuts are the lazy way to deal with this and besides - when has cutting out of a recession worked?

please show us examples of were it hasnt worked? please show us examples of were increased taxes have helped a country out of recession because thats the only other option

If you ask me we should have swallowed our pride and begged another EU state who actually has some concept of efficiency to sort us out. If you can appeal in a manner that makes Ireland look like a worthwhile future investment, that is. But if we're filled with assholes they might not bother.

the eu is sorting us out already did you miss the part were they are the ones lending us the money?

also if we get in someone to fix the problem with 'some concept of efficiency' the public service would be cut immedietely. and they would kick up a monster stink on the way out because they REFUSE TO DISCUSS REFORM

Lemondrop kid

Em, the underlying argument I read in the OP was that he's lost faith in the Irsih people bec they are quite ready to accept the budget cuts and apportion blame amongst ourselves (shouldn't have done this, shudda done that) rather than look at how we arrived at this situation.
That part, the nature of captialism, the failure of Friedman philosophy, the influence of corporations on wage levels and their desire to relocate to maximise profits disregarding employees (a tenet of some captialist thinking) (remember Dell?) and so forth.

Course I have been wrong before...

alfa beta

don't confuse apathy with pragmatism

dartbhoy

I'm working in construction and our industry has been hit hard but i'm lucky enough to still have a job. I'm not happy about the cuts but at the end of the day what can i do,Irish people seem to accept it and get on with life. People in this country lost the run of themselves during the Celtic Tiger spending crazy amounts of money on massive houses,4 wheel drives and expensive cars,eating out 2-3 times a week and going on 2-3 foreign holidays a year,they went over the top alltogether. The Celtic tiger had to end sometime but it seems a lot of people forgot this and now there's people in all sorts of financial dilemmas sadly.

Daragh101

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Sorry, it was too long to read so I stopped right here^

Exceuse me OP, but if someone's taking such a big mortgage or loan that the repayments can be in danger if the income changes only 6% is no one else but fool in my opinion.

Therefore, I would not give a damn sh*te, just because they get what they deserve.

lol..are you serious..!! typical irish aey?

Arnold Layne

Stekelly wrote: »

With the amount mortgages have dropped over the last year due to interest rate drops, how could anyone who wasnt in trouble a year or 18 months ago now not afford to pay their mortgage because of 5 or 6% wage drop?

Perhaos they are on a fixed mortgage and had 2 incomes paying for it back then as oppposed to one income now. A 6% drop would have some effect then.

hmmm

It's very easy to talk about fairness when you believe in a magic money pit which can be used to dole out endless sums to those "deserving". Sadly real life isn't so easy.

This "it wasn't our fault" claptrap is very grating too. I didn't see anyone refusing the states shilling when things were going well.

Dr_Phil

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Perhaos they are on a fixed mortgage and had 2 incomes paying for it back then as oppposed to one income now. A 6% drop would have some effect then.

They should have bought cheaper house...