Why don't Christians Kill their Children?

Turtwig

This would have to be one of the most provocative threads I've made on boards. I dare not post this in the Christianity forum because it is pretty much an argument against the Christian Faith. So I'm posting it from the safety net of A&A (Unless the mods here or in Christianity think it would be acceptable in the Christianity forum.).
I found this argument compellingly good. I'm hoping some Christian can watch it through to the finish and maybe debunk it?

Vid Description wrote:

I'm not saying they SHOULD, I'm just asking why they DON'T

N.B : Please watch it through to the finish before commenting - please don't post a rebuttal that get's debunked during the course of the video.

liah

Didn't watch the video, but I think it's just not something that occurs to anyone. In fact, I don't think any normal person would entertain the thought, full stop.

But for actual reasons, well, it'd be a strange mix of selfishness and compassion.

Selfish because if you kill your kid, you're not getting into heaven, nevermind them. Also selfish because you love the kid so you wanna keep it around, it makes you happy.
Compassionate because you also don't wanna see the kid in pain, no matter how much you believe it'll go up to heaven afterwards. You also wanna let it experience the world before it ascends unto the Almighty Lord our Saviour, I guess.

But that's speaking as an atheist who's in a really narky sarcastic mood right now, so I'm probably missing it completely.

Dades

Only God is allowed murder his children.

(For you, of course).

Flamed Diving

Problem the first. Doesn't the "good" book state that we are all born into sin? I obviously don't know any passages, but I have heard it before.

pH

Dades wrote: »

Only God is allowed murder his children.

(For you, of course).

I'm pretty sure you're allowed to kill them yourself if he asks you to.

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Also I'm pretty sure he let's you beat them, offer them for rape or sell them as slaves, probably all for their own good mind you.

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

liamw

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Problem the first. Doesn't the "good" book state that we are all born into sin? I obviously don't know any passages, but I have heard it before.

I was thinking the same thing. I thought we were all born into sin and could only get into heaven by asking for forgiveness...

Dades wrote: »

Only God is allowed murder his children.

(For you, of course).

Yes, but the point was that the parent was acknowledging her wrongdoing and was prepared to go to hell. So whether she's allowed to or not doesn't matter, all that matters is that her children will go to heaven.

Goduznt Xzst

I'm going to break it down for you as I imagine any Christian entering this thread will do:

Sophistry... *mumble mumble*... exegesis... *something or other* hermeneutics... *so on and so forth*... ergo, my understanding of the Bible is correct. You can't prove that my God isn't real.

Turtwig

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Problem the first. Doesn't the "good" book state that we are all born into sin? I obviously don't know any passages, but I have heard it before.

liamw wrote: »

I was thinking the same thing. I thought we were all born into sin and could only get into heaven by asking for forgiveness...

Guys, that point was addressed in the video.
[You have to consciously accept Jesus before you can be saved...]

liamw

Malty_T wrote: »

Guys, that point was addressed in the video.
[You have to consciously accept Jesus before you can be saved...]

I've seen that and I don't accept his explanation. He's going against Christianity on this one. He's trying to say that going against Christianity is the reasonable way to think.

It really defeats his whole argument which is if you accept Christianity you should kill your children, because Christianity states that we are born into sin and I don't think there's any mention of it excluding young children.

Flamed Diving

Malty_T wrote: »

Guys, that point was addressed in the video.
[You have to consciously accept Jesus before you can be saved...]

Why? Because he says so?

asdasd

I came to scoff but he presents relatively good arguments.

In fact, theologians would probably take that debate, and maybe already have.

( Not a believer myself, but neither am I anti-Christian).

ChocolateSauce

Because they're not that logical?

asdasd

Actually Theologians have argued against God all the time, in socratic type arguments.

Of course God wins in the end, that being the nature of that type of argument.

Turtwig

liamw wrote: »

I've seen that and I don't accept his explanation. He's going against Christianity on this one. He's trying to say that going against Christianity is the reasonable way to think.

How is it going against Christianity?

liamw

Malty_T wrote: »

How is it going against Christianity?

Because Christianity states we are all born into sin, therefore the child will go to Hell. Am I mistaken?

lmaopml

Hi Malty,

Firstly....That guy is beyond weird..lol...Where do you find these vids?? The internet is a truely strange and fascinating place...:)

Secondly.....Imo, he answered himself in the video. Christians are motivated first and foremost by pleasing God, and killing our Children because of some patchwork logic to out think him is in direct conflict with pleasing God.

'Love the lord thy God, with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all they strength.'


Hope this helps.

Turtwig

Hi Imaopml,

Which is more important to you: pleasing God, or guaranteeing the safety of your children? In my view, if I could guarantee the safety of my kids (none yet) for all eternity I would give serious consideration to saving them over pleasing and loving God. Wouldn't you?

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

Because Christianity states we are all born into sin, therefore the child will go to Hell. Am I mistaken?

Technically no but afaik christians have decided that you only go to hell if you actively reject Jesus rather than just not accepting him. It's to cover people who don't have the opportunity to accept Christ because of circumstances outside of their control such as dying before being able to speak, disability or living somewhere or at some time where the "good news" has not spread, like the native Americans pre-Columbus.

It's not clear why god didn't spread the good news to these people independently instead of waiting 1500 years for humans to do it themselves and I would have thought that statements like "No one comes to the Father except through me" were pretty unequivocal in stating that these people will not be saved but then that seems immoral so they decide that it doesn't mean what it appears to mean

lmaopml

Hi Malty,

Pleasing God is paramount to Christians Malty. Also, we don't look on our Children as our posessions, they are only on loan to us - but they have a will and path of their own which is the reason why we have them, to give them 'life' not death..lol...

It's weird even discussing this....lol....Anyway, like anybody else, we don't pre-emt their failures in life or failures to please God, we guide them to love God and put our trust and faith in them, and our ability to guide them, the way our parents did for us. That's Christian thinking...

To answer you question about which is more important to me, pleasing God, or guaranteeing the safety of my Children. I would say that pleasing God, in this instance by NOT killing children is of the utmost importance, and I would be very happy to please him on this score. I wouldn't like it if he asked me to kill my children, and there is every possibility that I may let him down on that score - However, that's not what his plan is, and I'm very happy to please God in this particular instance, so yes - pleasing God, and trusting his mercy for both my Children and myself and my husband....

We live in 'hope' not 'fear'.

Hope this helps.

Flamed Diving

Malty_T wrote: »

Hi Imaopml,

Which is more important to you: pleasing God, or guaranteeing the safety of your children? In my view, if I could guarantee the safety of my kids (none yet) for all eternity I would give serious consideration to saving them over pleasing and loving God. Wouldn't you?

I'm not speaking for Imaopml here, but any dyed-in-the-wool Christian I know would say that God comes first. I was quite shocked when I first was told this by a Christian in relation to his future wife, but then he reassured me by saying that she felt the same. I didn't dare ask about children...

liamw

lmaopml wrote: »

I wouldn't like it if he asked me to kill my children, and there is every possibility that I may let him down on that score -

It's scary that you would even say that. So, if you had an hallucination where you thought god spoke to you and told you to kill your children you would consider it?

Naz_st

liamw wrote: »

Because Christianity states we are all born into sin, therefore the child will go to Hell. Am I mistaken?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Technically no but afaik christians have decided that you only go to hell if you actively reject Jesus rather than just not accepting him.

This question has come up for me in some offline, down-the-pub debates over the years and appears to have some awkward answers for the mainstream religions:

Do children/babies automatically go to heaven when they die?

If No, then God is unmercifully cruel and unjust in not accepting these innocent souls. And for what reason - not being old enough to "believe" in him? Original sin (nothing to do with the children)?

If Yes, then wouldn't everyone be better off dying as a child? Living longer carries increased risk as the longer you live, the higher the chances of you doing something to jeopardise your place in heaven? [essentially the reasoning in the video posted]. In fact, isn't it extremely unfair for God to only grant unearned eternal bliss to some and make everyone else have to live life and potentially ruin their chances at eternal bliss? Why do some get this "free pass" to heaven and others not?

Flamed Diving

liamw wrote: »

It's scary that you would even say that. So, if you had an hallucination where you thought god spoke to you and told you to kill your children you would consider it?

It is scary. This is why when Christians ask you 'Without God, where do you get morals?', they don't really mean you, they mean how will they know how not to murder/rape/steal, etc.

lmaopml

I would have to say 'No' Liam. I would not kill my child for anything. Fear for their damnation, like the strange guy in the video, or also fear of securing my own damnation by not doing God's will.

I would gladly be damned rather than kill my children.

...and no I'm not scary I think the guy in the vid is scary, yes! and pretty weird.

Each to their own.

Dades

lmaopml wrote: »

Also, we don't look on our Children as our posessions, they are only on loan to us.

It's more of a lease, than a loan I'd have thought. :pac:

Turtwig

lmaopml wrote: »

I would have to say 'No' Liam. I would not kill my child for anything. Fear for their damnation, like the strange guy in the video, or also fear of securing my own damnation by not doing God's will.

I would gladly be damned rather than kill my children.

...and no I'm not scary I think the guy in the vid is scary, yes! and pretty weird.

Each to their own.

So you would openly reject God to save your children? Interesting, what if God promised to resurrected them after you killed them?

lmaopml

LOL Malty, this is a pretty strange line of questioning, but however I'll go with the flow....are you leading on to Jesus himself? The ultimate sacrifice?:)

Firstly, human sacrifice to God is wrong. We are told this, and it's part of the commandments - It's not for 'us' to kill....There are two stories in the old testament where people get the idea that God 'wills' human sacrifice, in actual fact prior to those times, and indeed during those times many pagans DID sacrifice their children to various Gods. So the ancient Hebrews would have been aware that this was something that was done....The story of Abraham and Isaac is meant to be taken as a man living during those times and 'Our' God 'testing' Abraham, and knowing that Abraham would have been aware of another culture that sacrificed children regularly - but the ultimate meaning taken out of it is that God told him 'not' to sacrifice his child, thus ensuring that his people knew that God does not require what the pagans did, and to draw a line under that fundamental difference...which is re-iterated in the commandments.

Anyway, knowing the above - and that God does not will human sacrifice, I would have to question either my sanity or who this 'God' was that told me to kill my child, and then he would resurrect them....*scratches head*

There is only one person who's own freely taken sacrifice saved us all - Jesus, who himself was God. God gave himself, for us.

I don't know if I explained that very well, and I'm no theologian - but I hope it helps a bit...

...and LOL!

Flamed Diving

In summary:

liamw

yes lmaopml, you've basically said that if you have a personal experience with god, you will dismiss that experience as an hallucination or insanity if he says something that is not consistent with your Christian idea of God.

If he says something that suits your faith, you will reject it as an hallucination and come to the conclusion that it was actually God speaking to you.

Very convenient.

Flamed Diving

liamw wrote: »

yes lmaopml, you've basically said that if you have a personal experience with god, you will dismiss that experience as an hallucination or insanity if he says something that is not consistent with your Christian idea of God.

If he says something that suits your faith, you will reject it as an hallucination and come to the conclusion that it was actually God speaking to you.

Very convenient.

Such a philosophy would be perfectly fine, should there be a clear, unambiguous meaning to be derived from the Bible...



Oh dear...

PDN

I didn't watch the video because I rarely watch online videos, and because I don't need to watch the video to answer Malty's question.

Christian don't kill their children because that would be murder, and muder is a sin and, to most of us, unthinkable. The issue of whether the murdered person goes to heaven or not is totally irrelevant to the issue of whether it is wrong to murder someone.

lmaopml

I would defo question my sanity Liam if I had a 'vision' of someone telling me to do something that is not consistent with my Christian God. That would be the bar we set ourselves that we understand the nature of God by his will...

If they weren't consistent with the Christian God, then they are not my God....and yes, defo I would need a shrink...and a new pair of knickers.

I know judging by the lovely pic that flamed diver put up that you think it is all sown up in a nutshell in a few sentences....Unfortunately, there is far more thought and learning goes into having faith in God, and understanding all the events between those lines...

...but I understand this is the AA forum.

I hope I've helped somewhat anyway

As always, I enjoyed chatting, now I have to go feed and wash my children like pretty much every other Christian does :rolleyes:

Flamed Diving

PDN wrote: »

I didn't watch the video because I rarely watch online videos, and because I don't need to watch the video to answer Malty's question.

Christian don't kill their children because that would be murder, and muder is a sin and, to most of us, unthinkable. The issue of whether the murdered person goes to heaven or not is totally irrelevant to the issue of whether it is wrong to murder someone.

But as the videos author said, what if you were willing to commit sin and go to hell, just so you child could go to heaven? That would be his point. Perhaps you should just watch the thing, then read the discussion so far, and then comment.

Are you drunk?

Just kidding.

Flamed Diving

lmaopml wrote: »

I know judging by the lovely pic that flamed diver put up that you think it is all sown up in a nutshell in a few sentences....Unfortunately, there is far more thought and learning goes into having faith in God, and understanding all the events between those lines...

I think much of the "stuff in-between" merely serves to cloud what could be otherwise read concisely, if one didn't want it all to be true so very badly.

Sam Vimes

lmaopml wrote: »

I would defo question my sanity Liam if I had a 'vision' of someone telling me to do something that is not consistent with my Christian God.

God ordered Abraham to kill his son, ordered the Israelites to kill many a child and made a deal with someone that he would provide military victory if the guy sacrificed the first thing to come out of his house when he arrived back from battle, knowing full well that it would be his daughter. If there's one thing that's consistent with the god of the bible, it's instructions to kill children

PDN

Flamed Diving wrote: »

But as the videos author said, what if you were willing to commit sin and go to hell, just so you child could go to heaven? That would be his point. Perhaps you should just watch the thing, then read the discussion so far, and then comment.

Are you drunk?

Just kidding.

Why watch a video that is obviously crap? The question is stupid.

As a parent I have more ambition for my child than that she simply makes it to heaven. She has the potential to be a preacher and lead others to Christ, she has the potential to discover a cure for cancer or for AIDS. God put her on the face of this planet for a reason, and I would be doing her and God a great diservice, as well as proving that my Christianity is nothing but a sham, if I killed her.

Sam Vimes

PDN wrote: »

Why watch a video that is obviously crap? The question is stupid.

As a parent I have more ambition for my child than that she simply makes it to heaven. She has the potential to be a preacher and lead others to Christ, she has the potential to discover a cure for cancer or for AIDS. God put her on the face of this planet for a reason, and I would be doing her and God a great diservice, as well as proving that my Christianity is nothing but a sham, if I killed her.

But since everything is part of God's plan, if you kill her is that not part of god's plan?

PDN

Sam Vimes wrote: »

But since everything is part of God's plan, if you kill her is that not part of god's plan?

I think you're confusing Christianity with Islam. The Bible makes it clear that not everything that happens is parts of God's plan.

Best of wishes taking this to the Islam forum.

Sam Vimes

PDN wrote: »

I think you're confusing Christianity with Islam. The Bible makes it clear that not everything that happens is parts of God's plan.

Best of wishes taking this to the Islam forum.

Right so when I hear people say things like "everything happens for a reason" or asking why god would allow something bad to happen to them or generally talking about god's plan or using phrases like "god works in myterious ways" to explain things that appear horrific, it's not necessarily that this horrific event had some underlying greater purpose as part of god's plan, it might well just be a horrific thing that happened for no reason and that god had no intention of allowing to happen?


Does god have a plan at all? The very idea that we can do things that go against god's plan seems to negate the idea that there is a plan. How can the plans of an omnipotent being not succeed? If god has a plan for your daughter how can you possibly kill her and if you can't kill her, do you have free will?

Flamed Diving

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Right so when I hear people say things like "everything happens for a reason" or asking why god would allow something bad to happen to them or generally talking about god's plan or using phrases like "god works in myterious ways" to explain things that appear horrific, it's not necessarily that this horrific event had some underlying greater purpose as part of god's plan, it might well just be a horrific thing that happened for no reason and that god had no intention of allowing to happen?


Does god have a plan at all? The very idea that we can do things that go against god's plan seems to negate the idea that there is a plan. How can the plans of an omnipotent being not succeed? If god has a plan for your daughter how can you possibly kill her and if you can't kill her, do you have free will?

This reminds me of the often-quoted:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

PDN

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Right so when I hear people say things like "everything happens for a reason" or asking why god would allow something bad to happen to them or generally talking about god's plan or using phrases like "god works in myterious ways" to explain things that appear horrific, it's not necessarily that this horrific event had some underlying greater purpose as part of god's plan, it might well just be a horrific thing that happened for no reason and that god had no intention of allowing to happen?

Well, I can hardly be responsible for what people say, can I? People talk a load of crap all the time.

If someone's kids gets mown down by a drunken driver, then it might make them feel better to say it was all for a reason - but it is not a Christian perspective. Their child died because some selfish git chose to drink and drive and so inflicted misery on others.

Does god have a plan at all? The very idea that we can do things that go against god's plan seems to negate the idea that there is a plan. How can the plans of an omnipotent being not succeed? If god has a plan for your daughter how can you possibly kill her and if you can't kill her, do you have free will?

God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan. That is a pretty basic tenet of both Judaism and Christianity. I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

liamw

PDN wrote: »

I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

The discussion usually doesn't go very far off becuase you delete the post and infract anybody that brings it up. You still haven't shown me how omniscience and free will are compatible? I guess we're all too dumb to understand it..

Sam Vimes

PDN wrote: »

Well, I can hardly be responsible for what people say, can I? People talk a load of crap all the time.

If someone's kids gets mown down by a drunken driver, then it might make them feel better to say it was all for a reason - but it is not a Christian perspective. Their child died because some selfish git chose to drink and drive and so inflicted misery on others.


God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan. That is a pretty basic tenet of both Judaism and Christianity. I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

Right so if we can do whatever we want and if people can kill others for whom god had plans and if disasters can happen which wipe out vast numbers of people for whom god had plans, in what way does god have a plan? How can something be a plan if you do nothing to ensure that it happens?

And god is in the unique position of knowing how the universe will play out from start to finish. Surely he knows in advance whether or not his plan for someone will succeed? Seems odd to make a plan knowing in advance with 100% certainty that it will fail?

Are natural disasters part of god's plan, as in is it just things humans do using their free will that can go against the plan?

How is this idea compatible with miracles? Seemingly god intervenes at certain intervals to change the course of events, presumably to cause his plans to succeed, why would he do it some times but not others? Are some of his plans more important than others? Or again is it only plans that have not been brought to the point of failure through the use of free will that he doesn't intervene in?

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

Why watch a video that is obviously crap? The question is stupid.

That's quite a statement, you didn't even watch the video and have dismissed it offhand for being crap.

PDN, I wouldn't have posted the video if I thought it was crap (which was similar to my initial dismissive reaction but because I'd seen other videos by the poster I showed a little faith in his absurd question and decided to watch it). Please watch it before dismissing it.

Naz_st

PDN wrote: »

God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan.

So God has a plan, but is powerless to stop us mere mortals from fecking it up? Seems a far cry from the all-powerful God most religious people refer to?

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

She has the potential to be a preacher and lead others to Christ

She also has the potential to take people away from Christ.

Flamed Diving

liamw wrote: »

The discussion usually doesn't go very far off becuase you delete the post and infract anybody that brings it up. You still haven't shown me how omniscience and free will are compatible? I guess we're all too dumb to understand it..

as was said earlier:

Sophistry... *mumble mumble*... exegesis... *something or other* hermeneutics... *so on and so forth*... ergo, my understanding of the Bible is correct. You can't prove that my God isn't real.

Turtwig

Guys can we leave "free will" out, unless it is directly related to a point made in the video's argument.

InReality

I think there is no logical reason why they don't.

If you take that kids will go straight to heaven if you kill them, then that logically has to be better than the chance that they will not go to heaven when they are grown up.

Its the same basic logic which was actually used to kill people during the spanish inqusition.

Sam Vimes

InReality wrote: »

I think there is no logical reason why they don't.

If you take that kids will go straight to heaven if you kill them, then that logically has to be better than the chance that they will not go to heaven when they are grown up.

Its the same basic logic which was actually used to kill people during the spanish inqusition.

And at the Salem witch trials afaik

Joey the lips

Watched the video have to say am facinated. I honestly dont have an answer. I never considered this aspect tbh but then again i am off the belief that life is purgatory and death is salvation:rolleyes:

So i really will have to this of this....