Pay Cuts in Commercial Semi State

Rev. BlueJeans

How many times do we need to tell you that the utilities you mention DO NOT SET THE PRICE?

RGS

This continous bashing of PS workers be they in commercial semi states or public services like health or education is aiding and abetting the government in pitting private workers against public workers.

All commercial semi state companies have a social responsibilty built into the operational functions---i.e An Post have a Universal Service Obligation--they are obliged to deliver post to every house every day for the same basic rate, their commercial opponents do have this obligation--totally different playing rules. Mail from Dublin to Donegal costs 55 cent with An Post would DHL/FEDEX deliver the same letter for 55cent---no F****** chance,

Regarding the ESB and Bord Gais they dont set the price of their product thats the regulators job.

ei.sdraob

irish_bob wrote: »

if the ESB as part of strike action ( in the face of proposed pay cuts ) decide to turn off the power , do you think bord gais or airtricity customers wont be effected , yes , they will , the ESB has a monopoly on the hardware

the grid was transfered and is owned by Eirgrid, a state company

as posted earlier ESB's share is 30% and falling of generation

Dr Galen

balrog wrote: »

you will find the goverment have already broken the pay agreement or ask some PS about that. They did not signalled that they would cut wages by the areed method and see what difference that made. Anyway the ESB and Bord Gais never get a penny out of the goverment you are right. why cause they cant make a loss its in their rules. So they hedge the gas prices the worng way. The hit the customer to make up the difference. Go ESB. Bring them in and cut the wage by at least 3.5%, the cost of deflation.

your not making any sense......

your suggested paycut of 3.5% for ESB workers wouldn't affect prices in the slightest. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but last I heard, wage costs in ESB were about 20% overall out of all costs, so even cutting pay by 10% would only mean a (roughly) 2% drop in (edit) Prices costs. If ESB passed that on, sure you'd barely notice it. It's been pointed out to you several times on this thread that wages are not the issue with ESB.

In fact, leaving the market interference aspect aside, if the other semi-state and indeed state run bodies were run as well as ESB or Bord Gais, we'd not be in half the mess were in, and there would have been little need for the across the board PS wage cuts we saw last week.

Riskymove

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

your not making any sense......

you are coming a bit late to the game, points have been made a few times but people are not listening, but hopefully it might sink in eventually

ei.sdraob

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but last I heard, wage costs in ESB were about 20% overall out of all costs, so even cutting pay by 10% would only mean a (roughly) 2% drop is costs.

full figures for salaries are available in the accounts i linked to earlier, all information is free and available online and their website

but of course some people here dont reason based on facts, the big elephants in the room is the regulator and fuel costs

Rujib1

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

your not making any sense......

your suggested paycut of 3.5% for ESB workers wouldn't affect prices in the slightest. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here but last I heard, wage costs in ESB were about 20% overall out of all costs, so even cutting pay by 10% would only mean a (roughly) 2% drop is costs. If ESB passed that on, sure you'd barely notice it. It's been pointed out to you several times on this thread that wages are not the issue with ESB.

In fact, leaving the market interference aspect aside, if the other semi-state and indeed state run bodies were run as well as ESB or Bord Gais, we'd not be in half the mess were in, and there would have been little need for the across the board PS wage cuts we saw last week.

I wouldn't fancy having you run a business for me Anybody who wouldn't bother their ass, to take up / chase down a 2% reduction in any cost component of a business, has a public sector mindset.
You wouldn't last long in Ryanair :pac:

Tigerbaby

Balrog

get back to your lair. you fire breathing evil entity.

ESB prices were the lowest in Europe before PD's/FF ( friends of our cuddly bankers and developers ) demanded they be raised to allow some "fat" for the poor private operators to come into the market. and what backhanders were passed there I wonder?

The ESB is *still* a successful Company which paid 400 million of a dividend to its one and only share-holder last year . . . ie the plain people of Ireland. I dont see any private operators doing that do I ? You know, actually helping the Country.

The ESB thankfully operates a PSO policy in which it is the supplier of last resort. Even if you decide to build on top of Errigal, they are obliged to supply you. Cant see anyone else being bothered to do this. You know, actually helping the Country.

I thought we had long gone past the whole sell the Family Jewels thing. Look how well its worked out so far ! ha ! Privatisation does not make the plain people of Ireland happy or wealthier.

Lets pull together peeps. Identify the guilty and stop the petty bickering amongst us who are the ones burdened with lifetimes of debt for the BANKS, the DEVELOPERS and FIANNA FAIL. THOSE are the reason the Country is in shi*e right now, NOT the Semi-States.

Thank God for the Unions as a rallying point for the disaffected and robbed.
This battle is only beginning.

Grow Up.

Dr Galen

Rujib1 wrote: »

I wouldn't fancy having you run a business for me Anybody who wouldn't bother their ass, to take up / chase down a 2% reduction in any cost component of a business, has a public sector mindset.
You wouldn't last long in Ryanair :pac:

you'll see I've edited my post, not enough coffee or nicoteine. I'm speaking specifically about prices in reference to the poster that is claiming that a 3.5% pay decrease would have a significant effect on prices.

I wrote costs at the end of that sentence when I meant to say prices.

Stheno

Tigerbaby wrote: »

The ESB is *still* a successful Company which paid 400 million of a dividend to its one and only share-holder last year . . . ie the plain people of Ireland. .

err actually if you read the annual report for 2008, it says:

ESB performance in 2008 involved
revenues of €3.5 billion and after tax profit
of €273 million. A dividend of €82 million is
proposed bringing total dividend payments to
the Exchequer since 2002 to €508 million

ei.sdraob

Rujib1 wrote: »

I wouldn't fancy having you run a business for me Anybody who wouldn't bother their ass, to take up / chase down a 2% reduction in any cost component of a business, has a public sector mindset.
You wouldn't last long in Ryanair :pac:

ffs (bangs head against desk) once again your missing the big elephant in the room

ESB can and want to lower prices by 15% but are not allowed infact Bord Gais, Airtricity etc do buy some electricity from ESB to cover their lack of capacity at these prices, but we the consumer get screwed so these companies make a profit in a "competitive" market


which part of the above paragraph do you have difficulty understanding? they can fire half the staff and the regulator still wont allow them to change price


now to move onto facts from http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/2007/esb-annual-report-complete-2007.pdf

Net payroll cost for employees (excluding pension): 364,643,000
Total Operating cost: 3,068,896,000

thats 11% goes to salaries (and probably fallen since the company is shrinking)

the above is only operating cost, im not including the billions being spend on retrofitting old plants, like the third of a billion Moneypoint project to scrub **** from exhausts


the above cost of salary divided by 7500 employees is an average salary of 48K, now this of course is distorted since the chairman was on a salary of 500K, while alot of people at the lower levels are on 20K and 6 months contracts


now can we please stick to facts and use a little bit of gray matter before posting

ei.sdraob

nouggatti wrote: »

err actually if you read the annual report for 2008, it says:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63488994&postcount=31


only if we had more companies like ESB in this country...

Stheno

ei.sdraob wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63488994&postcount=31


only if we had more companies like ESB in this country...

agreed, but it's now even more confusing, that chart says a dividend of 130 million, the annual report says a dividend of 82 million and the poster prior to me says a dividend of 400 million

Stheno

Duh for some reason I can't edit that post.

Anyway end of confusion in 2008 they paid the 2007 dividend of 130 million, then the proposed dividend to be paid in 2009 was 82 million

Rujib1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ffs (bangs head against desk) once again your missing the big elephant in the room

ESB can and want to lower prices by 15% but are not allowed infact Bord Gais, Airtricity etc do buy some electricity from ESB to cover their lack of capacity at these prices, but we the consumer get screwed so these companies make a profit in a "competitive" market


which part of the above paragraph do you have difficulty understanding? they can fire half the staff and the regulator still wont allow them to change price


now to move onto facts from http://www.esb.ie/downloads/about_esb/2007/esb-annual-report-complete-2007.pdf

Net payroll cost for employees (excluding pension): 364,643,000
Total Operating cost: 3,068,896

thats 11% goes to salaries (and probably fallen since the company is shrinking)

the above is only operating cost, im not including the billions being spend on retrofitting old plants, like the third of a billion Moneypoint project to scrub **** from exhausts


the above cost of salary divided by 7500 employees is an average salary of 48K, now this of course is distorted since the chairman was on a salary of 500K, while alot of people at the lower levels are on 20K and 6 months contracts


now can we please stick to facts and use a little bit of gray matter before posting

Horse manure :cool: Cut the pay. Tell the thick fckun regulator to cut prices big time. PD's are dead.

ei.sdraob

Rujib1 wrote: »

Horse manure :cool: Cut the pay. Tell the thick fckun regulator to cut prices big time. PD's are dead.

a very informative post, yes

Dr Galen

would you like to outline your reasons for saying that its horse manure?

Riskymove

Rujib1 wrote: »

Horse manure :cool: Cut the pay. Tell the thick fckun regulator to cut prices big time. PD's are dead.

well, that's that Lads

after that post completely debunks and refutes our side of the argument we might as well go home. I have rarely seen such insightful, persuasive and well argued remarks.

Yes we all see the light now, CUT PAY Now!!!

Burn the regulator!!

thank you

Risky

balrog

Look they need to be cut. This will break up the beard ones power. We have to smash them. right ei.sdraob

ei.sdraob

balrog wrote: »

Look they need to be cut. This will break up the beard ones power. We have to smash them. right ei.sdraob

this descended into an AH thread very quickly

Rujib1

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

would you like to outline your reasons for saying that its horse manure?

Simply because looking back at pure statistics as you are, is of no value looking forward.
The pure simple hard facts of the matter are that the country is bankrupt, approaching insolvency and needs to lower costs in ALL parts of the economy.

It's been happening widespread across the private sector, and now in the public sector.
NO PART OF THE ECONOMY SHOULD BE IMMUNE FROM THAT.

YES THE REGULTOR NEEDS TO CHANGE TAC AND LET PRICES DOWN.
YES WAGES ARE NOT A HUGE PART OF ESB COST, BUT THEY NEED TO COME DOWN. DOWN BIG TIME FOR THE BIG SALARY GUYS, AND A LITTLE FOR THE LOWER END SALARIES. ESB NEEDS TO CUT ALL COSTS IN THE BUSINESS, PASS ON ALL COST REDUCTIONS PLUS A GOOD 20% PRICE DROP ON TOP. AFTER ALL THAT IS DONE ESB STILL NEEDS TO BE PROFITABLE, STILL NEEDS TO PAY DIVIDEND TO TAX PAYER AND STILL NEEDS TO GENERATE ENOUGH FREE CAS TO REINVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE.
GET OVER THE BANKER, DEVELOPER, FF, PD BLUES. IT AINT GONNA DO YOU ANY GOOD GOING FORWARD.
FIX THE PRODUCTIVE ECONOMY. GET IT MOVING. STOP THE FISCAL ROT.
THEN WHEN WE HAVE THAT DONE, TAKE A BREATHER AND LETS KICK THE MANURE OUT OF BANKERS ET AL.

Riskymove

Rujib1 wrote: »

It's been happening widespread across the private sector, and now in the public sector.
NO PART OF THE ECONOMY SHOULD BE IMMUNE FROM THAT.

can you give us a few examples of profitable private sector companies who are doing this sort of thing (i.e. cutting pay in order to reduce prices to customers)?

Stheno

Am I correct in thinking that prior to deregulation electricity's price here was so low that new entrants were put off entering the market due to the lack of potential profitable opportunity?

And that as part of deregulation the government had to put in a regulator under EU rules so as to manage the market to encourage new entrants and therefore competition?

No one seems to have commented (those with the pov that it's all because ESB have a great big monopoly) that ESB's market share is approx. 30% from the slides posted earlier.

funnyname

Privatise them, get some some into the state coffers and let the workers find out what it's like to work in the private sector!

Dr Galen

hold on.....

are ESB not a profitable company? so why should they have to cut wages? just to be fair is it?

i work in the private sector and my company is very profitable, we've had double digit growth this year and a 17% increase in OP. I had a payrise, have received bonuses and done pretty well. Should I also take a pay cut? Just for solidarities sake?


also, writing in capitals will not do you any good going forward dude. It's generally seen as shouting online and not very mannerly

Riskymove

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i work in the private sector and my company is very profitable, we've had double digit growth this year and a 17% increase in OP. I had a payrise, have received bonuses and done pretty well. Should I also take a pay cut? Just for solidarities sake?

yes, thats what solidarity means in today's Ireland :pac:

If I lose out, everyone else must do as well :rolleyes:

balrog

ei.sdraob just why the change of heart on cutting peoples wges now ????. Look they are overpaid and could do with shake up. Them and their holy war. Now back to the real world where i cant hold a gun to the country head

Dr Galen

it's funny. The mixed definitions of right wing, left wing and everything else seem to have merged together into some sort of libertocommunistocentrism. We want our cake, want others to give up their cake but want fairness and solidarity too. I'm getting a bit lost by it tbh.

AlekSmart

Privatise them, get some some into the state coffers and let the workers find out what it's like to work in the private sector!

As a Trench Dwelling Bus driver I think Funnyname`s suggestion is quite amenable as it may well see me getting a Payrise far sooner than I expected (YaY !!! )

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1215/breaking26.htm

I just knew the Common Market would deliver

Mind you Riskymove asks quite a pertinent question too.....

Can you give us a few examples of profitable private sector companies who are doing this sort of thing (i.e. cutting pay in order to reduce prices to customers)?

I`m sure one will be along in a minute..... :P

Dr Galen

balrog wrote: »

ei.sdraob just why the change of heart on cutting peoples wges now ????. Look they are overpaid and could do with shake up. Them and their holy war. Now back to the real world where i cant hold a gun to the country head

because the difference between the PS and ESB for example is clear.

we the taxpayer, pay the wages of the PS (more or less)

ESB is a self sustaining and non subsidised company, that has the government as it's only "shareholder". We the taxpayer make no contribution to ESB. In fact they make profit and pump money back into the exchequer.

You and others have failed to make a clear argument, based in logic not nonsense, as to why we should cut the wages of ESB workers.