Pay Cuts in Commercial Semi State

WEST

balrog wrote: »

ei.sdraob just why the change of heart on cutting peoples wges now ????. Look they are overpaid and could do with shake up. Them and their holy war. Now back to the real world where i cant hold a gun to the country head

Balrog, you have not given a convincing argument why ESB staff should have their wages cut while the argumnets against wages cut are very convinicng. You're just coming across as a begruger with your replys.

Idbatterim

The Semi States should have been tackled before even the PS, if SS costs were coming down, you could more easily justify wage deflation. There is an article in the Indo today about SS pay.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/george-garvey-we-cant-allow-semistate-sector-to-escape-pay-cuts-1975006.html

Would it be an option through the interconnector etc, for irish conusmers and businesses to purchase power directly from British energy companies and thus have serious competition?

Idbatterim

Also what about a second private airport for Dublin? Let O'Leary or whoever build it, imagine how many extra tourists he could bring in! Lenihan shouldnt mess around, either bring the existing semi states in line or go for the nuclear option for them, i,e serious changes, competition etc!

jmayo

Riskymove wrote: »

...
While semi-states who are being suibsidised and are making losses should have reviews I dont see why profit-making ones should
would high profit-making private sector firms propose cuts to their staff?

Because then they can devote more of their profits to building for the future rather than trying to get money out of government coffers, or from bank loans, when they have upgrade systems.

Also all wages in this country need to come down.

Riskymove wrote: »

but he said himself last night that it would not affect the price of electricity?

ESB workers (and other semi-states) are not paid directly out of state revenue therefore reducing their pay would play no role in reducing the deficit
are profitable private companies to be forced to cut staff pay and lower their prices by Government legislation too?

Yes they need to cut prices immediately and yes I knwo the argument from the regulator, yet another quangoe created by bertie the quangoe king in 1999.

Absurdum wrote: »

The regulator is who fixes the price of electricity.

We know it is regulator and what is he doing ?
Oh he is keeping prices high to allow competitors into the market.
One competitor happens to be another semi state FFS.
Only in Ireland. :rolleyes:

Electricity prices need to be cut, for the benefit of business and residential users.
But oh no we want to entice suppliers into the market, suppliers that have been offshoots of companies that had links to some very favourable dodgy government decisions in the past.

Pete4779 wrote: »

Because ESB are actually a very well-run company that makes money. The price increases they were forced to pass on to customers over the past few years were mandated by government and against the wishes of ESB management.

If they are profitable, then they can reward their staff - that is what is "fair and equitable".
...

So well run that they had staff sitting playing cards in a defunct powerstation in Offaly :rolleyes:
I wonder would that happen in a truely private sector company ?

BTW the reason they are so profitable is because they have been screwing the sh** out of their customers for years.
And yes we know it is the fault of the government and the clowns in CER or whatever fancy initials the quangoe goes by. :rolleyes:

balrog

Hello everyone is been asked to do more for the goverment. Cant see why this cant be applied to ESB, anglo etc. It cant be fair when they are controlled by the goverment and the blind and disabled are hit. Why ? if they could cut the price of electricity as they have asked for that would be great and as workers of the state they could help out. Now lads back to work the coffee break is over. They are only profitable because they had a regulator who backed them to the last and unions that switch the light out at any sign of change.

Dr Galen

i be worried that a 2nd major airport for Dublin could be a bit of white elephant.

if we wanted to look at a private facility then maybe lookng at somewhere on the West would be a better idea, near to the larger population centres, but then again we have a decent airport in Cork already and how much demand would there be for another?

we should probably focus on making sure the airports we have are run and maintained properly, by whatever means rather than looking for the mythical O'Leary fairies to do it for us.

Rujib1

Riskymove wrote: »

can you give us a few examples of profitable private sector companies who are doing this sort of thing (i.e. cutting pay in order to reduce prices to customers)?

There are lots of examples:)
The whole gambit of PC manufacturers for example.
Used to have a lot of them in this country, but not anymore.
Why?
Labour amongst other costs too high.
So they feck off to China or Poland, because they can. They have to compete in a market, with ever declining end product prices and they respond by cutting costs in every way possible.
Now we cannot put our power generation off shore, so we just do what we can to cut costs right here at home.

Dr Galen

balrog wrote: »

Hello everyone is been asked to do more for the goverment. Cant see why this cant be applied to ESB, anglo etc. It cant be fair when they are controlled by the goverment and the blind and disabled are hit. Why ? if they could cut the price of electricity as they have asked for that would be great and as workers of the state they could help out. Now lads back to work the coffee break is over. They are only profitable because they had a regulator who backed them to the last and unions that switch the light out at any sign of change.

You can't seriously be comparing ESB to Anglo? ESB ain't perfect by no means but they are no Anglo.

Regardless of why ESB are profitable, the fact remains that they are. When the time comes for price decreases etc, then ESB will have to cut their cloth to their measure, but right now we're not at that point. We're probably pretty far from it too.

Dr Galen

Rujib1 wrote: »

Now we cannot put our power generation off shore, so we just do what we can to cut costs right here at home.

technically we can and it appears to be a pretty good idea

Riskymove

balrog wrote: »

Hello everyone is been asked to do more for the goverment. Cant see why this cant be applied to ESB, anglo etc. It cant be fair when they are controlled by the goverment and the blind and disabled are hit. Why ? if they could cut the price of electricity as they have asked for that would be great and as workers of the state they could help out. Now lads back to work the coffee break is over. They are only profitable because they had a regulator who backed them to the last and unions that switch the light out at any sign of change.

it has already been mentioned many times on the thread that a paycut will likely not affect price of electricity, you are simply ignoring this again and again

There are lots of examples

The examples you given are in the manufacturing sector which moved to other lower countries (and will move on again) in order to increase their profits not for the betterment of the economy

the main costs for those companies include wages and therefore the cost of labour is an important item

its not the same for the ESB, for whom labour costs are not the most important items. The labour cost is not driving up the price of electricity that they sell

Because then they can devote more of their profits to building for the future rather than trying to get money out of government coffers, or from bank loans, when they have upgrade systems.

I'll think you find they make plenty of profit and invest huge amounts in development and infrastructure as it is. they have no need to cut wage costs to do this.


Bottom line to all this is that they are a commercial enterprise and the Government should not be interfering in wage levels of other employees

How would you feel if the Government got involved in wage level setting in the private sector generally?

Rujib1

Riskymove wrote: »

How would you feel if the Government got involved in wage level setting in the private sector generally?

What planet have you been on for the past 20 years?
BIG part of the problem we have now is that goverment totally interfered with the labor market through those stupid national wage agreements. Charter for beards, nothing more.
You can be absolutely certain, wages in private sector would not have gotten out of control like they did without this stupid Bertinomic interferance.

Idbatterim

So Labor cost now has no direct impact on the final price of a product or service? ha ha ha! Look if you cut their wages by say 10% total, you could pass whatever the amount of € is on a a cut in electiricty prices...

ei.sdraob

Idbatterim wrote: »

So Labor cost now has no direct impact on the final price of a product or service? ha ha ha! Look if you cut their wages by say 10% total, you could pass whatever the amount of € is on a a cut in electiricty prices...

which part of

they want to cut prices but are not allowed

do you not understand?

jesus we just keep going around in circles in this thread

Dr Galen

i give up

Rujib1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

which part of

they want to cut prices but are not allowed

do you not understand?

jesus we just keep going around in circles in this thread

Nah, they don't really want to cut prices. They only say they want to cut prices, because they know right well, the stupid regulator will not let them.

Answer that one:cool:

ei.sdraob

Rujib1 wrote: »

Nah, they don't really want to cut prices. They only say they want to cut prices, because they know right well, the stupid regulator will not let them.

Answer that one:cool:

they already sell electricity at these reduced prices and more to competitors who dont have the capacity it times

sigh

balrog wrote: »

ei.sdraob just why the change of heart on cutting peoples wges now ????. Look they are overpaid and could do with shake up. Them and their holy war. Now back to the real world where i cant hold a gun to the country head

they are not a state company, tho a part is owned by a state (another part is owned by employees btw)

if a state starts dictating to private companies how much they can and can not pay

thats when we enter communist dictatorship territory, a very slippery slope to hell

pay levels should be dictated by the market, and since the market is distorted by the regulator, talking about pay is moot

/

Dr Galen

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they already sell electricity at these reduced prices and more to competitors who dont have the capacity it times

sigh

dude there's no point. we both know whats going on here

Max Power1

Rujib1 wrote: »

Nah, they don't really want to cut prices. They only say they want to cut prices, because they know right well, the stupid regulator will not let them.

Answer that one:cool:

try actually looking at the cer directives?

Same as with BG supply in domestic up to LIC (Up to 120gwh per annum) the incumbent monopoly is regulated with artificially high prices.

Esb/BGE supply businesses may want to keep prices high, but only so enough customers leave so taht the CER lift the restrictions so they can compete again pricewise. If that makes sense?!

Sleepy

Reduced wages with fixed sales = higher profits.

Those profits go into the government coffers as dividends.

Ergo, this would help the budget deficit.

Is it really not that simple?

Rujib1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they are not a state company, tho a part is owned by a state (another part is owned by employees btw)


/

That's another issue, partly owned by the employees. That factor needs to be considered when discussing pay levels in ESB. Value of their shares to be in some way factored in to their basic pay, to get a fair comparrison to private sector and or public sector.

Dr Galen

the simplistic logic your using here Rujib1 just doesn't apply,

you have still failed to make any valid case for reduction in pay for ESB workers

Sleepy

No rebuttal to my simplistic view of things MM?

td2009

Rujib1 wrote: »

Nah, they don't really want to cut prices. They only say they want to cut prices, because they know right well, the stupid regulator will not let them.

Answer that one:cool:

Maybe you should apply for a job in there instead of giving out? One of the only places actually doing something productive during the recession.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0416/breaking41.htm

I'm not sure you'd pass the aptitude tests though

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055690494

Dr Galen

Sleepy wrote: »

Reduced wages with fixed sales = higher profits.

Those profits go into the government coffers as dividends.

Ergo, this would help the budget deficit.

Is it really not that simple?

kinda but not really....

if you look back you'll see the figures but the dividend that ESB pay the Government is not the total of all their profits, just a percentage. You'll also see that wage costs in ESB have little effect in profit, as the costs associated are small in comparision to other costs the company has. Reducing wages wouldn't have a huge effect on bottom line and thus little effect on the dividend payable. You'd be starting a fight that there was no logic in starting tbh.

Stheno

Sleepy wrote: »

Reduced wages with fixed sales = higher profits.

Those profits go into the government coffers as dividends.

Ergo, this would help the budget deficit.

Is it really not that simple?

Potentially not due to the loss of the tax take.

Imo the govt would lose too much in tax to make the equation as simple as "pay cut = equal increase in dividends"

ei.sdraob

Rujib1 wrote: »

That's another issue, partly owned by the employees. That factor needs to be considered when discussing pay levels in ESB. Value of their shares to be in some way factored in to their basic pay, to get a fair comparrison to private sector and or public sector.

exactly

this same as faced by many companies where the employees own shares in company or founded the company

once a profit is made the choice is:
* invest into business, expand etc
* payback divident
* increase wages

or any of above


the state is a shareholder in ESB, so if Lenihan wants to demand wage cuts he could, tho whether the notion passes at the AGM (or whatever) with majority of shareholders agreeing is another story, the state can not dictate what to do since their say is 49-50%


talking about wages in ESB driving up costs misses the dancing elephants in the room and just shows a Irish Mirror level of understanding of events

Sleepy wrote: »

No rebuttal to my simplistic view of things MM?

if you look at the info and links i posted earlier

thats exactly what happened

the profits went to the State via taxes, dividends etc

while a large chunk was invested in upgrading the infrastructure (im talking billions here), Moneypoint alone would suck up all of the profit for 2007

thegoth

If you support pay cuts in semi state bodies and want to put pressure on the government to deliver this then join this group on facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=205840398555&ref=search&sid=1661353395.3755806346..1

Rujib1

td2009 wrote: »

Maybe you should apply for a job in there instead of giving out? One of the only places actually doing something productive during the recession.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0416/breaking41.htm

I'm not sure you'd pass the aptitude tests though

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055690494

Many years ago, I did actually sit the ESB exam as it was at the time. And yes, I was offered a job, but being the dim wit that I am, I didn't take it. If I had, I would be on here, on your side of the argument.
But hey, that's life. The private sectors gain was the ESB's loss, eh:p

Dr Galen

thegoth wrote: »

If you support pay cuts in semi state bodies and want to put pressure on the government to deliver this then join this group on facebook.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=205840398555&ref=search&sid=1661353395.3755806346..1

misinformed and silly ranting like this deserves a home on facebook, somewhere between the " i had porridge for breakfast" group and "join if you hate Theirry Henry" :rolleyes:

td2009

Rujib1 wrote: »

Many years ago, I did actually sit the ESB exam as it was at the time. And yes, I was offered a job, but being the dim wit that I am, I didn't take it. If I had, I would be on here, on your side of the argument.
But hey, that's life. The private sectors gain was the ESB's loss, eh:p

Only yourself to blame so :pac: and did you go into the private sector for more money at the time? :rolleyes: