Pay Cuts in Commercial Semi State

MI5

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i don't see Liam Doran mentioned in that piece at all?

Your'e brain has been fried to toast with all the manure flying around in here.
My post was a bit cryptic.

I saw Doran in the headline "ministers back off ...... "

Brought fond memories back of LD on 6 o clock telling the peasants to "back off and shut up"

Forgive me please :rolleyes:

WEST

holdfast wrote: »

Good to see things have not changes in the ESB

FYI

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63507020&postcount=123

super_furry

MI5 wrote: »

Seems Liam Doran is now involved in saving semi state employees from pay cuts, AND, he seems to be winning this battle :pac:

Ministers back off in semi-state pay battle

Mixed signals highlight 'faultlines' in the Cabinet

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ministers-back-off-in-semistate-pay-battle-1975096.html

Except many semi state employees have ALREADY taken pay cuts.

SkepticOne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ESB are able to reduce by 10% (and more) and asked the regulator to do so

but were not allowed to reduce prices by state Regulator in order not to hurt "co petition" (airtricity and other green fluffy companies whose electricity costs a bit)

/

I'd love to see some backup for this. If you look at the website of the electricity regulator you will see loads of requests for price rises from the ESB to the regulator. I challenge anyone to find requests for reductions at the wholesale level from the ESB.

rkevin

vandermeyde wrote: »

Surely if you've got a problem with the VHI, you'd just go to Hibernian or Aviva or one of their competitors?

If you've got a problem with the ESB, you go to Airtricity or Bord Gais?

the point is if you force the VHI down then the private sector will have to follow

rkevin

SkepticOne wrote: »

I'd love to see some backup for this. If you look at the website of the electricity regulator you will see loads of requests for price rises from the ESB to the regulator. I challenge anyone to find requests for reductions at the wholesale level from the ESB.

now now they did look for a reduction this year
They looked for a massive 0.2 % reduction
It is time to tap in to the uk for all our power needs just like the 500000 who are taping in to there food supply up north

ei.sdraob

SkepticOne wrote: »

I'd love to see some backup for this. If you look at the website of the electricity regulator you will see loads of requests for price rises from the ESB to the regulator. I challenge anyone to find requests for reductions at the wholesale level from the ESB.

erm

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0718/esb.html

ESB chairman Tadhg O'Donoghue has said the ESB would like to reduce electricity prices by 5-10% next year.
....
The reduction is being attributed to significantly lower gas prices
...
Speaking at the publication of the ESB's annual report, he complained about the system used by the energy regulator to set electricity prices
...
Mr O'Donoghue said the regulator should set a maximum price, which would allow companies to charge lower prices
...
The CIR said it had no plans to allow ESB the flexibility it wanted because of its dominance in the market.

there you go :cool:


heres some more love for ya

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/idojidqlid/

ESB and gas bills set to fall as regulator agrees price cut
...
But the opposition said the price cuts were insufficient and that energy prices could be further reduced.
...
Neither the ESB nor Bord Gáis can reduce their prices themselves, even if fuel prices are low, as that function is reserved for the commission.

the market is controlled by the state not, by cuts in costs as shown over and over again in this and other threads

/

ei.sdraob

more from just few months ago

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0806/breaking62.htm

ESB seeks to cut business prices

The ESB is to seek a price reduction for small and medium business customers of up to 5.5 per cent, it said today

The ESB cut its prices for homes by 10 per cent in May.

“ESB is determined to minimise the impact of energy costs on industry, business and individual households,” an ESB spokesman said today.

The company has written to the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER), the body which sets energy prices, seeking approval of the reduction, which would come into effect for 12 months from October 1st.

A decision on the two applications is expected by the end of this month.

anyone else still "sceptical" or not convinced that its the regulator who is ****ing about, they offered cuts, what is there to think about?

ei.sdraob

http://www.esb.ie/main/press/press-release358.jsp

6th August 2009: ESB is not seeking any price increase from next October for domestic electricity customers and is proposing a price reduction of up to 6% for large business customers. This means that cumulatively in 2009, ESB has reduced prices or offset price increases by over 20%.

These latest price proposals, which apply for the 12 months from 1st October 2009, are set out in ESB Customer Supply's pricing submission to the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER).

ESB has provided over €500m of support to help stabilise electricity prices for all electricity customers in 2009, irrespective of their supplier.

there you go they are subsidizing customers of other companies

would something like that happen in a free market?

would Tesco subsidize the milk thats sold in Dunnes?

SkepticOne

That is just PR, ei.sdraob. Phrases like "would like to reduce prices" mean nothing. Don't fall for it.

It is when you look at how they have demonstrated this desire that we find the truth.

The challenge is to find formal requests from the ESB to reduce prices at the wholesale level where most of the costs are generated. Instead what we find is a series of requests for price rises from the ESB to the regulator.

Let's look at actions rather than corporate PR.

nesf

Sleepy wrote: »

Reduced wages with fixed sales = higher profits.

Those profits go into the government coffers as dividends.

Ergo, this would help the budget deficit.

Is it really not that simple?

Nah. The wages that are paid out go to Irish people who then pay taxes on them and spend them in the local economy. The State already gets a fair portion of this money back to it between income tax, PRSI and VAT. It also generates profits in local business that are also taxed.

The only reason to cut PS salaries was that they are directly funded out of taxation. ESB salaries don't increase the deficit so there's no pressing need to cut them.

SkepticOne

rkevin wrote: »

now now they did look for a reduction this year
They looked for a massive 0.2 % reduction
It is time to tap in to the uk for all our power needs just like the 500000 who are taping in to there food supply up north

Well spotted. When they do seek a reduction it is for a derisory amount, more for publicity than anything else. If you look at the previous years, it is all increases they have asked for. All the time saying, of course, that they "would like" to reduce prices.

What it means is that the ESB is an organisation in serious need of reform. The whole market needs to be reformed. What we have is a classic example of pseudo-competitition. The appearance is given through an enforced margin allowing superficial retail competition but with only limited scope to reduce prices.

ei.sdraob

SkepticOne wrote: »

That is just PR, ei.sdraob. Phrases like "would like to reduce prices" mean nothing. Don't fall for it.

It is when you look at how they have demonstrated this desire that we find the truth.

The challenge is to find formal requests from the ESB to reduce prices at the wholesale level where most of the costs are generated. Instead what we find is a series of requests for price rises from the ESB to the regulator.

Let's look at actions rather than corporate PR.

arghghghgh

will you read the linked articles please

The company has written to the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER), the body which sets energy prices, seeking approval of the reduction, which would come into effect for 12 months from October 1st.

is the above not a formal request? (which has now been approved) an official request documented in the media

they send a series of requests to the requlator to lower prices
thats all they can do is sent a request and hope it gets approved


heres an official document from their competitor Aitricity supporting one of the requests to lower prices

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:16OVLb3WC8UJ:www.cer.ie/GetAttachment.aspx%3Fid%3D2745c6dd-6d84-40be-9471-5485dc2533b2+esb+proposes+price+cuts&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgWNAwW0_Pc9o81Cd5W8pjz1kioLQrcsnEATP5pJcNbsH0sy-jCf80P5Fd6ZrVhzmkI_Q8NNZWIBqJQiOGSo-cvru3s18yXbbwPAfN_PVz-BxzEGkUbI2eEfD9YfofwLsmBn7rc&sig=AHIEtbQSstZGEp6Lb4nlZSeNPZX1bc9Dug

SkepticOne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they send a series of requests to the requlator to lower prices
thats all they can do is sent a request and hope it gets approved

Let's see the requests for decreases (from the ESB to the regulator) then. Not the 0.2% one by the way.

You will find that most if not all at the wholesale level are requests for increases.

SkepticOne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

heres an official document from their competitor Aitricity supporting one of the requests to lower prices

No, what is being claimed is that the ESB generally want to lower prices.

ei.sdraob

SkepticOne wrote: »

Let's see the requests for decreases (from the ESB to the regulator) then. Not the 0.2% one by the way.

You will find that most if not all at the wholesale level are requests for increases.

sigh 0.2% is what ESB customers have to put up with, in order to provide an subsidize and provide an "incentive" to switch to other suppliers

the ESB is subsidizing to tune of 500 million the customers of Bord Gas et al. who have up to 10% discounts

who do you think Bord Gas etc get their electricity from at a 15%+ discount for their customers when they themselves dont have the generating capacity to serve their customers needs

SkepticOne wrote: »

No, what is being claimed is that the ESB generally want to lower prices.

yes, but they are not allowed to match their "competition" since there be no incentive to switch

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they already sell electricity at these reduced prices and more to competitors who dont have the capacity it times

sigh

they are not a state company, tho a part is owned by a state (another part is owned by employees btw)

if a state starts dictating to private companies how much they can and can not pay

thats when we enter communist dictatorship territory, a very slippery slope to hell

pay levels should be dictated by the market, and since the market is distorted by the regulator, talking about pay is moot

/

Eh I take great exception to this sh**e always trotted out by ESb apolgists about them not being a state company, due to some semantics in the legislation or the fact that the workers and ex workers own a small proportion of the company.

Who appoints the chairman and board ?
Who is the majority shareholder ?

Asd if we are not headed to hell already :rolleyes:
Care to look at current deficit and probable NAMA losses ?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

considering the state owns 49-50% share

they would not get more than this % in dividends....

and remember employees are shareholders too here

What are you on about ?
ESOP own about 14% AFAIK.
Originally started at something like 5% when setup.

Are you saying that the Dept of Energy i.e. the irish state now only owns 49/50% of the ESB ?

Who the feck owns the other 36/37% ?
Where can I buy shares in the ESB ?

vandermeyde wrote: »

To be honest, I reckon it's a sign that we're probably approaching the bottom of how bad things are going to get. The feeding frenzy is starting which is normally the sign, rational thought goes out the window and it's all about the pound of flesh.

Hopefully it won't last long and will be cathartic so we can get on with the business or trying to get this country back motoring rather than scrapping among ourselves.

IMHO you ain't anywhere near the bottom yet.
Wait until interest rates increase, wait until the banks gets new round of recapitalisation and then decide to really target mortgage defaulters, wait until the new year or even wait until next years budget in December.

With all that it is going to get a hell of a lot nastier.

What will p*** people off is when they see ESB workers getting pay rises, all the while they are paying very high prices for their electricity.
It will not matter that the ESB claim it is the regulator's fault or that labour costs are only small portion of the input costs.

The country desperately needs to cut business and indeed household costs and yet we have a government and regulation authority that is creating an unnecessarily high price level.
All in the name of increasing competition :rolleyes:
Remind anyone of NAMA ?

Get the country back motoring ??
This country hasn't been motoring properly since 2001 FFS.

Dr Galen

what your suggesting then is more populism?

isn't that what got us in this mess in the first place.

SkepticOne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sigh 0.2% is what ESB customers have to put up with, in order to provide an subsidize and provide an "incentive" to switch to other suppliers

No, that is the amount the ESB themselves proposed the prices be reduced by 0.2% which I think you will agree is derisory. I think the actual reduction turned out to be greater in the end. In general they are asking for increases.

What I'm disputing here is the idea that the ESB are actually trying to reduce prices as opposed to merely saying so in the press. Those who believe them need to find documents on the regulators website backing up the ESB's claim. Every official communication is published on the CER's website.

It is true that they have to have a certain margain over their wholesale price, but they are generally trying to push up their wholesale price as evidenced by their requests for increases, which means they don't care about high prices for the consumer.

High electricity prices is one of the things standing in the way of competitiveness. This is why we need to take a more critical view of corporate pronouncements.

We need a stronger regulator that will stand up to the ESB and their unions.

erictheviking

Why the f*** should ESB workers take a pay cut? They are a profitable company.
The arguments for pay cuts are rubbish!
1."Everyone else took one so they should!" Rubbish! Everyone else did NOT take a pay cut!
2. "The high cost of the ESB is being passed onto us" Rubbish! switch to one of the other suppliers then.
If semi states make a profit, its their workers that make those profits.
Cetain workers get good terms of employment and conditions and other people don't like it!
Begrudgery is all it is!
Who will you all pick on next? The unemployed? The disabled?

Hotblack Desiato

Bogger77 wrote: »

One other little thing, you're not understanding, is that the government signed up to standard wage agreements, which stated pay and conditions for most sectors of the economy, if it breached those, it'd set a very bad precedent, and be illegal anyhows.

Jesus wept. Honest to God, what is the point of even trying to respond to this drivel?

If the government honoured the agreements it signed up to only last year, 320,000 public servants would be a lot better off in their pocket than they are now. Governments can rip up agreements as easily as sign them, and there is f-all anyone can do about it.

balrog

Looks like the goiverment is going to back down even though the semi state compaines are the one of top averge earners from CSO stats. Mad, shows you the power these guys have over the goverment. Dont cut us or we bring the country to a stand still, cut the poorest instead.

johnathan woss

Riskymove wrote: »

ESB workers (and other semi-states) are not paid directly out of state revenue therefore reducing their pay would play no role in reducing the deficit

The government gets paid a dividened from ESB.

If their wages were lower the dividend would be bigger, i.e. the deficit would be reduced.

ESB and Bord Gais are two of the best companies to work for in the western world.

johnathan woss

Absurdum wrote: »

The regulator is who fixes the price of electricity.

No.

The Regulator must sanction the final price, which is submitted BY THE ESB.

johnathan woss

Riskymove wrote: »

how will a reduction in pay to ESB workers contribute to a functioning and growing economy?

Well,
it would reduce the cost of electricity.
And it would increase the dividend paid by ESB to the government.

Kind of obvious really.

johnathan woss

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ESB are able to reduce by 10% (and more) and asked the regulator to do so

but were not allowed to reduce prices by state Regulator

Where is your EVIDENCE for this ?

The Regulator does not have the power to cut wages in ESB.

johnathan woss

ei.sdraob wrote: »

it wont because employees salaries are a tiny percentage of overall expenses and falling rapidly as employee numbers fall

Obviously ESB wages are a small part of the cost of electricity.

But so what ?

If their wages were reduced they would pay a bigger dividend to the government.

They are essentially government employees. It is morally repugnant to see many here who attacked PS workers earning 30 grand a year give a pass to ESB employees, some of whom earn multiples of ten of that.

johnathan woss

Riskymove wrote: »

you seem to want to just keep going on these lines without thinking about whats been posted here

1. ESB wanted to lower prices, regulator/Governemtn would not let them
False

2. a paycut will not reduce electricity prices
False - it would, by a small amount

3. there is competition with bord gais and airtricity, if you think esb is too high change - btw do you think airtricity wages should be cut by Government?

4. ESB wages are not part of the public sector pay bill, so cut will not help balance the books
False - ESB could then pay the government a bigger dividend

.

johnathan woss

Cufflink wrote: »

Has everyone forgotten the reason why ESB charges are so high? They were forced up on ideological grounds by the late and very unlamented PDs in order to attract in foreign competition to the Irish electricity market so as to force down electricity prices. Really Irish, isn't it?

Not true.
They are forced to charge their actual costs.

Through the 80s and 90s electricity was charged at below cost. This meant that there was no investment in the grid which was falling apart by the late nineties, and that there was no investment in new generators so we were in real danger of rolling blackouts in the 2000s if something wasn't done.

johnathan woss

Bogger77 wrote: »

ESB, have for as many years as I can remember paid the government a nice dividend at the each of each year. That's right, the ESB gives the Government money each year.

Of course you pay the government a dividend every year.
The government (i.e. the taxpayer of this country) OWN ESB.

We own Moneypoint, we own Poolbeg, we own the network, etc.

You AREN'T a private company.