Pay Cuts in Commercial Semi State

johnathan woss

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

How many times do we need to tell you that the utilities you mention DO NOT SET THE PRICE?

ESB CS submits a price that is sanctioned by the regulator.
The regulator CANNOT cut wages in ESB.

johnathan woss

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rujib1
Nah, they don't really want to cut prices. They only say they want to cut prices, because they know right well, the stupid regulator will not let them.

Answer that one
.................................................

they already sell electricity at these reduced prices and more to competitors who dont have the capacity it times

sigh


Quote:
Originally Posted by balrog
ei.sdraob just why the change of heart on cutting peoples wges now ????. Look they are overpaid and could do with shake up. Them and their holy war. Now back to the real world where i cant hold a gun to the country head
..............................................................

they are not a state company, tho a part is owned by a state (another part is owned by employees btw)

if a state starts dictating to private companies how much they can and can not pay

thats when we enter communist dictatorship territory, a very slippery slope to hell

pay levels should be dictated by the market, and since the market is distorted by the regulator, talking about pay is moot

What are you talking about ?

"they already sell electricity at these reduced prices and more to competitors who dont have the capacity it times" - what does this even mean ?

ESB Power Generation sell energy in the wholesale market, all suppliers buy it.
ESB Customer Supply sell energy to the final customers, they submit prices to the regulator for sanction.

Do you have any idea how the Irish electricity market actually works ?

johnathan woss

SkepticOne wrote: »

That is just PR, ei.sdraob. Phrases like "would like to reduce prices" mean nothing. Don't fall for it.

It is when you look at how they have demonstrated this desire that we find the truth.

The challenge is to find formal requests from the ESB to reduce prices at the wholesale level where most of the costs are generated. Instead what we find is a series of requests for price rises from the ESB to the regulator.

Let's look at actions rather than corporate PR.

Hmmm finally someone that knows what he's talking about.

johnathan woss

ei.sdraob wrote: »

arghghghgh

will you read the linked articles please



is the above not a formal request? (which has now been approved) an official request documented in the media

they send a series of requests to the requlator to lower prices
thats all they can do is sent a request and hope it gets approved


heres an official document from their competitor Aitricity supporting one of the requests to lower prices

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:16OVLb3WC8UJ:www.cer.ie/GetAttachment.aspx%3Fid%3D2745c6dd-6d84-40be-9471-5485dc2533b2+esb+proposes+price+cuts&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgWNAwW0_Pc9o81Cd5W8pjz1kioLQrcsnEATP5pJcNbsH0sy-jCf80P5Fd6ZrVhzmkI_Q8NNZWIBqJQiOGSo-cvru3s18yXbbwPAfN_PVz-BxzEGkUbI2eEfD9YfofwLsmBn7rc&sig=AHIEtbQSstZGEp6Lb4nlZSeNPZX1bc9Dug

When the prices of fossil fuels fall then the "cost of generation" falls and so ESB Customer Supply must reduce this cost in their price submission to the regulator.

They have never proposed cutting their wage cost in their price submission to the regulator.

You post like you are an authority but I'll ask again; do you have any idea how the Irish electricity market actually works ?

GenericUser

johnathan woss wrote: »

What are you talking about ?

"they already sell electricity at these reduced prices and more to competitors who dont have the capacity it times" - what does this even mean ?

ESB Power Generation sell energy in the wholesale market, all suppliers buy it.
ESB Customer Supply sell energy to the final customers, they submit prices to the regulator for sanction.

Do you have any idea how the Irish electricity market actually works ?

There is a thing called 'Directed Contracts' which force the ESB to sell some of its power generation at less than market prices outside of the main market. This is supposedly another method of reducing the ESBs market dominance. Bord Gais and Airtricity are signed up to these directed contracts. In essence, ESB is subsidising its competitors through these directed contracts and also by (last year) paying a pso rebate to each and every electricity user in the state, whether they have a supply agreement with the ESB or not.

Some points to note in this quite ESB centric debate.

1) The one and only way that prices will ever come down is if Gas prices drop.(and they are on the way back up)
2) If the government was serious about cutting energy costs to the consumer, they could affect a cut overnight by cutting the 13.5% VAT on energy costs.
3) As other posters have mentioned, ESB are functioning with their hands tied behind their back in a competitive wholesale market. There are a number of private players in this market. The private players pay MORE than ESB do for the same staff. There is a shortage of engineers in the world and in Ireland. ESB have some of the highest qualified, experienced and respected enginneers in the world working there. A pay cut there will most likely result in a brain drain to private energy companies, which will invariably result in a decline in the quality of service provided by ESB. Point three also stands for Bord Gais and EirGrid.
4) Cutting wages at ESB will have no effect on electricity prices in Ireland.

They are the simple facts of the matter.

Enjoy the rest of your debate.

johnathan woss

GenericUser wrote: »

There is a thing called 'Directed Contracts' which force the ESB to sell some of its power generation at less than market prices outside of the main market. This is supposedly another method of reducing the ESBs market dominance. Bord Gais and Airtricity are signed up to these directed contracts. In essence, ESB is subsidising its competitors through these directed contracts and also by (last year) paying a pso rebate to each and every electricity user in the state, whether they have a supply agreement with the ESB or not.

Some points to note in this quite ESB centric debate.

1) The one and only way that prices will ever come down is if Gas prices drop.(and they are on the way back up)
2) If the government was serious about cutting energy costs to the consumer, they could affect a cut overnight by cutting the 13.5% VAT on energy costs.
3) As other posters have mentioned, ESB are functioning with their hands tied behind their back in a competitive wholesale market. There are a number of private players in this market. The private players pay MORE than ESB do for the same staff. There is a shortage of engineers in the world and in Ireland. ESB have some of the highest qualified, experienced and respected enginneers in the world working there. A pay cut there will most likely result in a brain drain to private energy companies, which will invariably result in a decline in the quality of service provided by ESB. Point three also stands for Bord Gais and EirGrid.
4) Cutting wages at ESB will have no effect on electricity prices in Ireland.

They are the simple facts of the matter.

Enjoy the rest of your debate.

ESB Customer Supply also get some electricity at "Directed Contract" prices. (more than Bord Gais or Airtricity in fact).
The Directed Contracts are set at a forecast of the market price a year ahead, this may be above or below the actual market spot price at the time.

The PSO is paid by all final electricity consumers, ESB does not lose money on the PSO.

The biggest driver of electricity prices in ireland is the gas price, but the electricity price will come down if other costs are cut.

What evidence do you have that ESB's competitors pay higher wages ?

Hotblack Desiato

GenericUser wrote: »

The private players pay MORE than ESB do for the same staff.

Ah, the 'public sector premium' exposed - you have to pay people MORE to get them to leave the cosy semi-state and free shares

But if the ESB paid less, their competitors could also...

Rujib1

johnathan woss wrote: »

ESB Customer Supply also get some electricity at "Directed Contract" prices. (more than Bord Gais or Airtricity in fact).
The Directed Contracts are set at a forecast of the market price a year ahead, this may be above or below the actual market spot price at the time.

The PSO is paid by all final electricity consumers, ESB does not lose money on the PSO.

The biggest driver of electricity prices in ireland is the gas price, but the electricity price will come down if other costs are cut.

What evidence do you have that ESB's competitors pay higher wages ?

Whatever ESB's competitors pay their staff, they charge their customers 10% less than ESB. I know, I am with one of then.
So why in FCUK's name can't all the clowns on here moaning about ESB, go home and CHANGE away from ESB to the competition?
If enough of us did that, ESB, would have to respond, by cutting prices, regulator or no regulator. Simple. get it in to your collective thi ck heads

td2009

Note on the pricing:

6th August 2009: ESB is not seeking any price increase from next October for domestic electricity customers and is proposing a price reduction of up to 6% for large business customers. This means that cumulatively in 2009, ESB has reduced prices or offset price increases by over 20%.
These latest price proposals, which apply for the 12 months from 1st October 2009, are set out in ESB Customer Supply's pricing submission to the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER).
ESB has provided over €500m of support to help stabilise electricity prices for all electricity customers in 2009, irrespective of their supplier.
This support took the form of a special subsidy and other financial measures effective January 2009 which reduced by 12.5% the impact of 2008 international fuel price increases. In addition, in May 2009 a 10% price reduction was implemented by ESB, for all electricity users. This 10% cut brought forward the benefit of falling international fuel prices ahead of the annual price determination which is now taking place. This early reduction was made possible by the deferral of revenues due to ESB (Networks).
ESB is determined to minimise the impact of energy costs on industry, business and individual households as is evidenced by these supports to the market.
ESB Customer Supply proposals are published today (Thursday, 6th August) by the CER and will be subject to public consultation before the CER makes a final determination at the end of August.



As for wages, point was made already, private sector utility companies pay far more, you can look that up anywhere

td2009

ninja900 wrote: »

Ah, the 'public sector premium' exposed - you have to pay people MORE to get them to leave the cosy semi-state and free shares

But if the ESB paid less, their competitors could also...

But it's a unique market with a lot of very specialised staff hence the high wages offered by utility companies in the UK/Oz.

johnathan woss

Did anyone read the piece on semi-state salaries in the Sunday Independent of 20th December ?

The head of Coillte earns nearly 1/2 million euro a year while the head of the Forestry Commission in Britain earns 163,000 euro a year.

ei.sdraob

johnathan woss wrote: »

Did anyone read the piece on semi-state salaries in the Sunday Independent of 20th December ?

The head of Coillte earns nearly 1/2 million euro a year while the head of the Forestry Commission in Britain earns 163,000 euro a year.

ye but trees are greener here

seriosly tho no surprises there, as i said earlier head of ESB is on 500K, we just had a primetime with heads of banks making 6-7 figures salaries and pensions

"because they are worth it"

balrog

Board Gais protected state employees got a pay rise because they are worth it too of 5%. goverment are too weak on these boys more croynism.

GenericUser

ninja900 wrote: »

Ah, the 'public sector premium' exposed - you have to pay people MORE to get them to leave the cosy semi-state and free shares

But if the ESB paid less, their competitors could also...

I'm sorry thats not true. They pay more because there is a shortage of experienced and qualified staff. Namely engineers. This is a problem not just in Ireland but worldwide. Its simple supply and demand really.

samb

Riskymove wrote: »

but he said himself last night that it would not affect the price of electricity?

ESB workers (and other semi-states) are not paid directly out of state revenue therefore reducing their pay would play no role in reducing the deficit

are profitable private companies to be forced to cut staff pay and lower their prices by Government legislation too?

Of coarse profitable private sector companies will cut pay for staff if the labour market changes in that direction. 78k is a lot more money now than it was a couple of years ago. In a healthy jobs market (not distorted by sectoral blackmail) Each individual employee in any sector should be paid based on what they contribute regardless of the overall performance of the organisation. An excellent public servant should be paid well regardless of the fact that the country is broke.
The esb is owned by the public so the pay in that company has to be open to public strutiny. If they took a pay cut then our dividend would be bigger and we would have to borrow less.