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Arrest warrant issues for Israeli dignitaries

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  • 15-12-2009 6:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭


    Israel is all up in a tizzy over this latest round of arrest warrants.

    It would seem to me that it is about time the international community begin to address Israels attitude towards the rest of the world. Every single criticism, every attempt at justice or honesty, even by their own people is met with hostility. Perhaps I am ill informed, but how is Israel even an ally to the west? The Mossad has been described to me as "the most organized terrorist network in the world" by someone in the US intelligence community. I believe that to be true unfortunately.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Well I don't.

    Israel is as a sovereign state entitled to exist like any other state.

    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    There should be more like them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Well I don't.

    Israel is as a sovereign state entitled to exist like any other state.

    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    There should be more like them.

    What, like this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Israel is as a sovereign state entitled to exist like any other state.

    What exactly is the relevance to the arrest warrants being issued for Israeli politicans. Does the ICJ warrant for Omar Al Bashir threaten the existence of the state of Sudan as well? I assume we are to apply this reasoning to all states.

    Also, the Palestinians could make a similar argument considering the Israeli's have a habit of stealing there lands and attacking them as well.
    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    Well, seeing as arrest warrants are being issued (not to mentioned the daming Goldstone reports and reports by multiple Human Rights organizations), I take it not everyone agrees with you.
    There should be more like them.

    I don't think the planet needs people running around the world claiming bits of land, because they think the Abrhamic God gave it to them or for the secular ultra nationalists making a 2000 year old land claim. The whole thing will turn into a rather large mess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 395 ✭✭aurelius79


    Well I don't.

    Israel is as a sovereign state entitled to exist like any other state.

    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    There should be more like them.

    I wonder if you wrote that with a straight face.

    I won't go into the right of Israel to exist. It's a state now and there's not much anyone can do about it.

    Israel has a long history of illegal assassinations, massacres, and other crimes against humanity and breaches of international law. If there's one thing they do well it's death and destruction. Why are they allowed to continue committing these crimes? Is it some deep seeded guilt about the holocaust? Is it simply a matter of economics? Is the west afraid of giving up the largest western outpost in the Middle East?

    The simple fact of the matter is Israel is guilty of multiple breaches of international laws, human rights laws, UN mandates, the list goes on. So the real question is when will they be held accountable for these crimes? The warnings and threats of legal action have gone on long enough. It's time to actually start arresting people and handing out sentences.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I wasnt going to post this for being irrelevant but when youre talking about Foreign Relations:

    Im sorry, but we blew up your laptop (Welcome to Israel)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 395 ✭✭aurelius79


    Overheal wrote: »
    I wasnt going to post this for being irrelevant but when youre talking about Foreign Relations:

    Im sorry, but we blew up your laptop (Welcome to Israel)

    Nice story. I wonder if you substituted the laptop for a briefcase and the references to the Middle East to say.....eastern Europe, 1939.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,514 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    There should be more like them.

    Yeah. Look at these terrorists. They sure didn't muck around with that unarmed father trying to protect his child! No, no, better shoot them both.

    How about air-bursting chemical weapons on a civilian population in a built up area?

    Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if every country behaved like Israel?!?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Well I don't.

    You don't what?
    Israel is as a sovereign state entitled to exist like any other state.

    What has that to do with accountability for war-crimes?
    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    Yeah, those 920+ civilians had it coming to them. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Yeah, those 920+ civilians had it coming to them. :rolleyes:
    And y'know, if Hamas would stop using schools and Children as Human Shields, those numbers might be significantly lower.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y

    HumanShields.jpg

    So, speaking of Warcrimes and international law...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    And y'know, if Hamas would stop using schools and Children as Human Shields, those numbers might be significantly lower.

    Opposed to the IDF using Palestinians as human shields? :rolleyes:

    http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/gazacrisis,0,split-in-israel-cabinet-reported-as-war-crimes-concerns-grow,70091

    The reason so many Palestinians are dead is because Israel doesn't care about Palestinian life.

    13 dead Israelis (4 of which were friendly fire) versus over 1400 dead Palestinians. You do the math.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Well those numbers are easy to explain when Hamas uses at least 20 civvies per combatant. So really, its more like 70 dead soldiers.

    But to pragmatically adress the IDFs Human Shield practices: yes, they are illegal. Compare it directly to Hamas tactics though, that put the Palestinians into Direct Line of Sight. Your own article argues the IDF occupies the dwelling and secures the family in a ground floor room. Aside from bombing or tank shells, thats much less in harms way than the Hamas method, while both are still exceptionally illegal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    Well those numbers are easy to explain when Hamas uses at least 20 civvies per combatant. So really, its more like 70 dead soldiers.

    ....


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dlofnep wrote: »
    ....
    Oh youre right im sorry, 320~ish dead civilians by your own article. So 600-ish Hamas soldiers dead? I guess the IDF isnt as sloppy as I thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,514 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    Overheal wrote: »
    And y'know, if Hamas would stop using schools and Children as Human Shields, those numbers might be significantly lower.


    So, speaking of Warcrimes and international law...

    So what's Israel's gameplan here?
    "Hey, they're using the civilians as human shields so if we murder all the civilians, they won't be able to use them any more!"

    Also, seeing as Israel attacks Palestine indiscriminately, they don't care whether they are 'human shields' or just humans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    Oh youre right im sorry, 320~ish dead civilians by your own article. So 600-ish Hamas soldiers dead? I guess the IDF isnt as sloppy as I thought.

    926 civilians, 255 policemen, 236 members of Hamas.

    Not sloppy, purposefully dangerous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dlofnep wrote: »
    926 civilians, 255 policemen, 236 members of Hamas.

    Not sloppy, purposefully dangerous.
    So because Palestine uses Human Shields, the IDF should just cease fire and take rockets and bullets up its arse?

    Lets say I start shooting at you Dfolnep. I have an Ak-47 and lots of bullets, but Im surrounded by children and I have an infant strapped to my chest. How do you respond? You could run but ill just chase you down. Meanwhile im killing you and your friend pat and jim the baker but lets assume youre all Army.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    And y'know, if Hamas would stop using schools and Children as Human Shields, those numbers might be significantly lower.

    Israel's human shields draw fire
    Palestinian brothers: Israel used us as human shields in Gaza war

    Nah, the Israeli's would still use the Palestinians as Human Shields.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Despite my interest in cataloging misdeeds, I must ask;

    Are these warrants justified?

    I think they are, and seeing the English government back down on this is sickening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,514 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    Overheal wrote: »
    So because Palestine uses Human Shields, the IDF should just cease fire and take rockets and bullets up its arse?

    No, they should do the same! The point is; they don't cease fire; Hamas, human shields or just plain civilians; doesn't matter a damn.

    But, they have a right to exist so they have a right to use chemical weapons on civilians and attack the U.N. right?
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19306&Cr=leban&Cr1
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/25/mideast.main/index.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    So because Palestine uses Human Shields, the IDF should just cease fire and take rockets and bullets up its arse?

    How about stop stealing Palestinian land and murdering innocent civilians?

    **EDIT**
    It has been shown by the Goldstone report (not to mention shown by Human Rights outfits) that the Israeli's didn't give a crap who they murder, so Hamas's use of Human Shields become irrelevant, as the Israeli's aren't particular about there targets, and use the exact same tactics as Hamas, when it suits them. So I fail to see how the Israeli's are any better.
    **END EDIT**
    Overheal wrote: »
    Lets say I start shooting at you Dfolnep. I have an Ak-47 and lots of bullets, but Im surrounded by children and I have an infant strapped to my chest. How do you respond? You could run but ill just chase you down. Meanwhile im killing you and your friend pat and jim the baker but lets assume youre all Army.

    Reminds of the 24 terrorist argument. Come up with the most extreme example as if it represents the reality.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Overheal wrote: »
    So because Palestine uses Human Shields, the IDF should just cease fire and take rockets and bullets up its arse?

    Lets say I start shooting at you Dfolnep. I have an Ak-47 and lots of bullets, but Im surrounded by children and I have an infant strapped to my chest. How do you respond? You could run but ill just chase you down. Meanwhile im killing you and your friend pat and jim the baker but lets assume youre all Army.

    Simple solution.

    You, Pat and Jim the bakers and your Israeli version of the black and tans can just go home and vote for sane people to lead your country rather than the right wing religious extremist psychopaths that are in power now.

    OR

    You could just call in for heavier firepower and watch that man, his children, wife and the young child strapped to his chest get liquidated by US designed weaponry. Ahh the smell of democracy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Hellm0 wrote: »
    Simple solution.

    You, Pat and Jim the bakers and your Israeli version of the black and tans can just go home and vote for sane people to lead your country rather than the right wing religious extremist psychopaths that are in power now.
    Dfolnep told me I wasnt allowed to do that in an earlier thread.

    Dfolnep did you vote for Hamas or something?
    Wes wrote:
    It has been shown by the Goldstone report (not to mention shown by Human Rights outfits) that the Israeli's didn't give a crap who they murder, so Hamas's use of Human Shields become irrelevant, as the Israeli's aren't particular about there targets, and use the exact same tactics as Hamas, when it suits them. So I fail to see how the Israeli's are any better.
    Thats ****ing laughable. One, because it came from the One-side Report. And that the report says what Hamas does is irrelevant?

    Wake up. Goodness...


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I think the following links will add context to the reasoning for issueing arrest warrants for Israeli politicians:

    United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

    From Human Rights Watch:
    Complete coverage of Israel/Gaza

    From the BBC.co.uk:
    Amnesty details Gaza 'war crimes'
    BBC also has a PDF of the report:
    Amnesty International report on Operation 'Cast Lead'

    The reasoning behind issuing arrest warrants for Israeli politicians (the same reasoning would apply to Hamas btw), is that there is a lot of evidence of there involvement in war crimes, just like Hamas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The reasoning behind issuing arrest warrants for Israeli politicians (the same reasoning would apply to Hamas btw), is that there is a lot of evidence of there involvement in war crimes, just like Hamas.
    Have Arrest warrants been issued for Hamas leaders though?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Hellm0


    Overheal wrote: »
    Have Arrest warrants been issued for Hamas leaders though?

    I do not know, but I can tell you they are pegged to be on this list. And at the end of the day I would probably rather be arrested in the UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    Thats ****ing laughable. One, because it came from the One-side Report.

    Care to explain how its one sided? Seems to me that the report was pretty fair, but I noticed you didn't say that the reports evidence was false.
    Overheal wrote: »
    And that the report says what Hamas does is irrelevant?

    Where exactly does it say that? In what context?

    I did a search on the text didn't find anywhere where it said what Hamas does is irrelevant:

    The following quotes are from the Goldstone report (linked above), and are the only paragraphs that contain the word "irrelevant", as per my PDF viewers search.
    Page 202:
    934. Article 54 (1) and (2) of Additional Protocol I reflect customary international law.495
    Article 54 (2) prohibits acts whose specific purpose is the denial of sustenance for whatever
    reason, including starvation, forced displacement or anything else. In short, the motive for
    denying sustenance need not be to starve the civilia
    Page 276:
    1298. The Israeli Government stated that “from the commencement of the Gaza Operation and
    for its duration” a total of 1,511 trucks with supplies from Israel as well as diesel, cooking gas
    and other fuel were allowed into the Gaza Strip. It would appear that some 60 per cent of these
    supplies were foodstuffs. The Israeli Government states that (presumably during the same
    period) it also coordinated the passage of 706 trucks carrying donations from international
    organizations and various countries.660 Information from UNRWA suggests that these quantities
    were irrelevant given the situation prevailing during the military operation and the local needs.
    For instance, although fuel for the power plant was let in, it was inadequate, forcing the power
    plant to shut down and causing 16-hour power cuts in some areas. Israel also reported allowing
    in 2,277,000 litres of diesel during the military operations, but according to UNRWA records
    only 199,400 litres were allowed in, while OCHA records suggest only 92,000 litres were
    allowed in, compared to 6,628,400 litres in January 2007.661
    Page 317:
    According to PCATI, even seemingly innocuous measures such as cuffing (both hands and feet) are used in a
    deliberate way. Painful shackling is done for invalid and irrelevant reasons, which include causing pain and
    suffering, punishment, intimidation, and illegally eliciting information and confessions. The practice of shackling
    may be used by the various authorities as a tool for dehumanizing Palestinian detainees subject to the control of the
    occupying Power. PCATI, “Shackling as a form of torture and abuse”, Periodic Report, June 2009.
    Page 402:
    1870. The possibilities for obtaining reparation and compensation in the Israeli legal system
    have been limited. A 2001 amendment to the Civil Wrongs Act extended the definition of “acts
    of war” and set procedural limitations on Palestinians’ ability to bring claims against Israel.
    These limitations include the shortening of the period before the statute of limitations applies and
    the requirement to submit a “notice” of damage to the Israeli Defense Minister in advance of the
    claim and within two months after the damage occurred.1200 Additional amendments passed in
    2002 and 2005 prevent the courts from hearing claims relating to actions by security forces in
    “conflict zones” proclaimed as such by the Minister of Defense, and give immunity to the State
    against claims by subjects of enemy States or members of “terrorist organizations”.1201 Under the
    last two amendments the character of the harmful act, the circumstances under which harm was
    suffered and the causality link between the perpetrator and the harm have become irrelevant. The
    Mission received information that the amendments allowed the Minister of Defense to declare
    areas in the Occupied Palestinian Territory as “conflict zones” retroactively.

    Can't find anywhere in the report where it says what you claim.

    **EDIT**
    Ok, you meant what I said. Well, Hamas using Human Shield becomes irrelevant as a defense for Israel if they engage in indiscriminate attacks on civilians area's and use Human Shields themselves. The IDF have shown again and again, they don't give a crap about the lives of Palestinians.
    **END EDIT**
    Overheal wrote: »
    Wake up. Goodness...

    Wide awake here :D.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Overheal wrote: »
    Have Arrest warrants been issued for Hamas leaders though?

    Have any of them announced the intent to go the UK? I am sure if they did so like Livni announced her trip to the UK, they would issue them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Well I don't.

    Israel is as a sovereign state entitled to exist like any other state..


    I don't believe the OP suggested anything to the contrary.
    They do things well, don't muck around and these people who mess with them do so at their peril.

    There should be more like them.

    Hard to tell what that has to do with any specific acts....Unless you're giving them a blamk cheque of support....
    Overheal wrote:
    And y'know, if Hamas would stop using schools and Children as Human Shields, those numbers might be significantly lower..

    Like clockwork. Thats often alledged (and usually by the IDF ) but seldom proved.

    You know that using human shields was standard (and considered legal) IDF procedure for 30 plus years...?


  • Registered Users Posts: 83,333 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    wes wrote: »
    Care to explain how its one sided? Seems to me that the report was pretty fair, but I noticed you didn't say that the reports evidence was false.



    Where exactly does it say that? In what context?

    I did a search on the text didn't find anywhere where it said what Hamas does is irrelevant:

    The following quotes are from the Goldstone report (linked above), and are the only paragraphs that contain the word "irrelevant", as per my PDF viewers search.








    Can't find anywhere in the report where it says what you claim.

    **EDIT**
    Ok, you meant what I said. Well, Hamas using Human Shield becomes irrelevant as a defense for Israel if they engage in indiscriminate attacks on civilians area's and use Human Shields themselves. The IDF have shown again and again, they don't give a crap about the lives of Palestinians.
    **END EDIT**



    Wide awake here :D.
    But in fact you cited the Goldstone Report as follows:
    It has been shown by the Goldstone report (not to mention shown by Human Rights outfits) that the Israeli's didn't give a crap who they murder, so Hamas's use of Human Shields become irrelevant, as the Israeli's aren't particular about there targets, and use the exact same tactics as Hamas, when it suits them. So I fail to see how the Israeli's are any better.
    Perhaps you need to clean up this statement then.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Overheal wrote: »
    So because Palestine uses Human Shields, the IDF should just cease fire and take rockets and bullets up its arse?

    Lets say I start shooting at you Dfolnep. I have an Ak-47 and lots of bullets, but Im surrounded by children and I have an infant strapped to my chest. How do you respond? You could run but ill just chase you down. Meanwhile im killing you and your friend pat and jim the baker but lets assume youre all Army.

    Sorry, but you're scenario is so pretentiously disingenuous and hyperbolic, I'm not going to even begin to entertain it.


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