Stand up for maintaining the cuts

ninty9er

I saw first hand yesterday evening, a Minister of State being hounded by people claiming that the 5% reduction in the first €30k was unfair, despite it being just €1,500 of a cut effectively reducing the net tax payable also.

Then it occurred to me: Is it any wonder that government TDs, particularly those in Ministerial positions are surrounded by civil and public servants who drown out the noise of everyone else. Given that civil and public servants are entitled to increments as a matter of right, rather than by negotiation, I would hope that people would stand up and back up these cuts to the public sector.

starbelgrade

Picket the picket lines?

ninty9er

starbelgrade wrote: »

Picket the picket lines?

Let your government TDs know you want the cuts upheld, otherwise they will waver on them and they will be reversed.

Altreab

ninty9er wrote: »

I saw first hand yesterday evening, a Minister of State being hounded by people claiming that the 5% reduction in the first €30k was unfair, despite it being just €1,500 of a cut effectively reducing the net tax payable also.

Then it occurred to me: Is it any wonder that government TDs, particularly those in Ministerial positions are surrounded by civil and public servants who drown out the noise of everyone else. Given that civil and public servants are entitled to increments as a matter of right, rather than by negotiation, I would hope that people would stand up and back up these cuts to the public sector.

and that €1500 gross cut is actually a NET cut of €1052. When increments are added, the actual take home may actually rise this year. For example despite the additional Pension Levy and an actual drop in numbers employed last year the wage bill actually increased by 1-2%

namenotavailablE

It may be helpful to compare the net income of a public servant who was earning gross €30000 pa on 1 January 2009 against what s/he will net in 2010:

Net earnings on gross of €30000 in 2009: €23827
Net earnings on gross of €28500 (5% pay deduction) in 2010: €22660

Loss in net earnings: €1167

A non-public servant on €30000 gross would have earned €25224 in 2009 and will earn €24924 (assuming no paycut) in 2010.

All figures are based on a single person with 'typical' tax details.

Riskymove

namenotavailabl wrote: »

It may be helpful to compare the net income of a public servant who was earning gross €30000 pa on 1 January 2009 against what s/he will net in 2010:

Net earnings on gross of €30000 in 2009: €23827
Net earnings on gross of €28500 (5% pay deduction) in 2010: €22660

Loss in net earnings: €1167

A non-public servant on €30000 gross would have earned €25224 in 2009 and will earn €24924 (assuming no paycut) in 2010.

All figures are based on a single person with 'typical' tax details.

sorry I dont get this, what caused the reduction in the non-public sector person?

namenotavailablE

What caused the reduction in the non-public sector person?

It's a sly one.
In 2009, the revised levies only applied from May 1st. In 2010, they apply for the full year.
You won't actually see a difference in your January payslip but because that will be the net for the full 12 months as opposed to only 8 months, your overall net pay will be lower in 2010 compared to 2009.

Riskymove

namenotavailabl wrote: »

It's a sly one.
In 2009, the revised levies only applied from May 1st. In 2010, they apply for the full year.
You won't actually see a difference in your January payslip but because that will be the net for the full 12 months as opposed to only 8 months, your overall net pay will be lower in 2010 compared to 2009.

I see,

i presume you included this in the public sector figures too

namenotavailablE

I presume you included this in the public sector figures too

Yep- all 2009 figures (both public and private) allow for the introduction and variation of the public sector only pension levy as well as the health/ income levy changes (applicable to all) in May 2009.

Check my spreadsheet at taxcalc.eu/monthlyss

waffleman

ninty9er wrote: »

I saw first hand yesterday evening, a Minister of State being hounded by people claiming that the 5% reduction in the first €30k was unfair, despite it being just €1,500 of a cut effectively reducing the net tax payable also.

Then it occurred to me: Is it any wonder that government TDs, particularly those in Ministerial positions are surrounded by civil and public servants who drown out the noise of everyone else. Given that civil and public servants are entitled to increments as a matter of right, rather than by negotiation, I would hope that people would stand up and back up these cuts to the public sector.

I heard today that the legislation for the cuts will be going through tonight. I dont think they will be reversed and there will more Public Service cuts next year. They will hopefully cut numbers too if they have any sense.

granturismo

waffleman wrote: »

They will hopefully cut numbers too if they have any sense.

You seem delighted that more people will be joining the dole queue.

ninty9er

namenotavailabl wrote: »

It may be helpful to compare the net income of a public servant who was earning gross €30000 pa on 1 January 2009 against what s/he will net in 2010:

Net earnings on gross of €30000 in 2009: €23827
Net earnings on gross of €28500 (5% pay deduction) in 2010: €22660

Loss in net earnings: €1167

A non-public servant on €30000 gross would have earned €25224 in 2009 and will earn €24924 (assuming no paycut) in 2010.

All figures are based on a single person with 'typical' tax details.

<nitpicking> Surely the difference of €2,264 is more than made up for in the index linked pension, while the private sector worker has state contributory only</nitpicking>

namenotavailablE

<nitpicking> Surely the difference of €2,264 is more than made up for in the index linked pension, while the private sector worker has state contributory only</nitpicking>

I don't know the answer to that but would point out that all public servants who commenced since April 1995 are part of a 'co-ordinated' pension scheme. As I understand it, what this means is that their ultimate pension consists of the 'standard' state OAP plus the additional amount that brings their pension up to the amount calculated using the "1/80th * years service" formula. Their pension contributions (superannuation only, not the pension levy amount) reflect this, as the OAP is deducted from their pay when applying the relevant percentage for calculation purposes.

I think the only way to evaluate it is to see what an annual net contribution of €2264 by a private sector worker to a PRSA/AVC would generate in terms of additional top-up to the contributory OAP. That way you'd be able to compare the total pension package at 65 for each party.

pah

waffleman wrote: »

I heard today that the legislation for the cuts will be going through tonight. I dont think they will be reversed and there will more Public Service cuts next year. They will hopefully cut numbers too if they have any sense.

There's no hope of them being reversed but I don't think the cuts coupled with redundancies would be good for anybody.

ardmacha

And the upshot of all of that is that someone on less than €30k will have very little by way of PS pension if they remain on that salary when they retire.

SkepticOne

Let the government be ripped to shreds by unthinking public servants with a grandiose sense of entitlement. Let them go at each other. The government have no choice but to make the cuts if they want to be able to draw their own salaries. Why should I or anyone be concerned if it renders FF unelectable for the next 20 years?

hobochris

SkepticOne wrote: »

Let the government be ripped to shreds by unthinking public servants with a grandiose sense of entitlement. Let them go at each other. The government have no choice but to make the cuts if they want to be able to draw their own salaries. Why should I or anyone be concerned if it renders FF unelectable for the next 20 years?

Thats well and good but its the damage it does to the economy I'm worried about. We have an economy with no major indigenous industry therefor depend of foreign investment a lot more for growth.

Now if I was an investor looking at the Irish market, where the government cannot manage the public services and their lack of leadership was causing civil unrest I would think twice before investing my money anywhere within an economy they have jurisdiction over.

SkepticOne

hobochris wrote: »

Thats well and good but its the damage it does to the economy I'm worried about. We have an economy with no major indigenous industry therefor depend of foreign investment a lot more for growth.

Now if I was an investor looking at the Irish market, where the government cannot manage the public services and their lack of leadership was causing civil unrest I would think twice before investing my money anywhere within an economy they have jurisdiction over.

The cuts are going to be made regardless of public support of them since if they are not made the ability to borrow will dry up. I think most people realise this, so there isn't really any need for additional public support for cuts. I have no problem with the cuts but likewise I have no problem with public servants taking their frustrations out on the government since the government through mismanagement of the economy brought about the problems in the first place.

ixoy

namenotavailabl wrote: »

It may be helpful to compare the net income of a public servant who was earning gross €30000 pa on 1 January 2009 against what s/he will net in 2010:

Net earnings on gross of €30000 in 2009: €23827
Net earnings on gross of €28500 (5% pay deduction) in 2010: €22660

Loss in net earnings: €1167.

That doesn't take into account the fact that the public servant could quite easily have received an increment so that their base salary, from which 5% is deducated, would be higher a year later.

pah

namenotavailabl wrote: »

Yep- all 2009 figures (both public and private) allow for the introduction and variation of the public sector only pension levy as well as the health/ income levy changes (applicable to all) in May 2009.

Check my spreadsheet at taxcalc.eu/monthlyss

Have I got this right because there was a significant reduction in my pay packet.


Garda Basic = €37,935

New Gross for 2010 = €32,245

€5690 difference?

so a 15% difference taking all levies and cuts into account since before Budget 08? Is that how it works out or am I missing something?

Some colleagues had mentioned this percentage but I was a bit skeptical.

Cheers

fartmaster

ninty9er wrote: »

I saw first hand yesterday evening, a Minister of State being hounded by people claiming that the 5% reduction in the first €30k was unfair, despite it being just €1,500 of a cut effectively reducing the net tax payable also.

Then it occurred to me: Is it any wonder that government TDs, particularly those in Ministerial positions are surrounded by civil and public servants who drown out the noise of everyone else. Given that civil and public servants are entitled to increments as a matter of right, rather than by negotiation, I would hope that people would stand up and back up these cuts to the public sector.

The cuts are unfair. Higher civil servants are getting away with a lesser tax yet they earn more!! Why werent these people taxed as much as those lower down the scale?....because they are directly in contact and work with the politicans who are in power. A guard on the street is more important than 10 wind bags in the Dail. When will the Public realise that the government only have interest in shafting other poeple and pointing the finger AWAY from the mess they made. Blaming civil servants for the state of the ecomony is like telling a property developer not to cut corners for costs.

namenotavailablE

Have I got this right because there was a significant reduction in my pay packet.

Garda Basic = €37,935
New Gross for 2010 = €32,245

If your gross pay (i.e. pay before any tax / levies have been deducted) was €37935 in 2009, your gross pay will reduce to €35840 in 2010. [reduction is €30000*5% = €1500 and €7935*7.5%=€595, total gross reduction €2095]

Your net pay in each year will depend on your tax status- single/married etc. For a single person with 'typical' tax details on €37935 gross, total net for 2009 would have been €28615 (Jan to April = c.€2400 net per month, thereafter c. €2340 net per month). In 2010, after revising the gross pay to €35840, the average monthly net for the same person should be €27005 (€2250 per month).

namenotavailablE

That doesn't take into account the fact that the public servant could quite easily have received an increment

That's correct- if they receive an increment the figures change. You'd need to allow for when the increment is received to get an accurate revised value.

Sandvich

Ireland is probably one of the only first world countries you'd get this level of insanity and "swotting" from.

I think more people need to stand up for the principle of having the cheeky bastards standing up for cuts getting a slap. It just goes to show the level of malice the Irish people have against the hardworking teachers and hospital workers in this country.

Reminds me of those pretentious pricks I saw once in the states who wear anti-Che Guevara t-shirts, and somehow think they're better than the ones who wear pro-Che Guevara T-Shirts. At best, you're just as bad and at worse you're being a total prick about it.

The cut wouldn't have been too bad if it wasn't for the fact the Public sector ALREADY took a cut. Yes, the public sector may be higher earners for "equivalent jobs"(which isn't an objective measure by the way) but it doesn't change the fact that people still set things up around a certain amount of income that's now taken a significant hit.

waffleman

granturismo wrote: »

You seem delighted that more people will be joining the dole queue.

im not delighted that people will have to join the dole queue. im scared that our government hasnt the balls to make the tough decisions needed and get us out of the sh!t. I'd love to see them get our billions back off the bankers, jail them and we all live happily ever after with no cuts anywhere but it ain't going to happen. I want them to cut numbers where cuts can be made - study where people are under utilized and not dream up more job titles instead of let them go. Then those people might have to do some real work elsewhere and we can get out of this mess.

CityCentreMan

This is a pretty s&ite recession and it is hurting a lot of people including the unemployed, welfare recipients, self-employed, home-owners, public sector workers & private sector workers.

At this stage there are very few people who are unaffected or better off (possibly pensioners but we will hopefully all be there someday and no one could have been surprised that the government were afraid to take them on).

Although I personally feel that it was a bit harsh to hit all workers earning less than 30K with the 5% cut, I honestly believe that the Public Sector wage cuts were neccessary. I personally know the impact of salary cuts & unemployment and I can well understand the suffering that this is causing. However, it is fair that the pain is shared and it was'nt being shared fairly before.

Although, we are all suffering now, it would appear that the Public Service Unions believe that they should be exempt and are intent on getting the government to climbdown.

In so far as they nearly succeeded in getting Brian Cowan to buy into their "12 days for Christmas Proposal" I think that it is important that we show the unions, the government and ordinary workers that these measures do have the support of the general public and that there will be a revolution if they climb down.

Brian Cowan and FF dont have a good track record of standing up to the Unions. Their newly developed spine is at an early stage in its development and is very fragile. Appeasement is their preferred option (Brian Chamberlain Cowan?) and the best way to get them to hold firm is to loudly oppose the Unions at every opportunity in forums such as this, directly with your TD, Ministers, Radio Shows etc.

Tim Robbins

namenotavailabl wrote: »

It may be helpful to compare the net income of a public servant who was earning gross €30000 pa on 1 January 2009 against what s/he will net in 2010:

Net earnings on gross of €30000 in 2009: €23827
Net earnings on gross of €28500 (5% pay deduction) in 2010: €22660

Loss in net earnings: €1167

A non-public servant on €30000 gross would have earned €25224 in 2009 and will earn €24924 (assuming no paycut) in 2010.

All figures are based on a single person with 'typical' tax details.

I initially felt very sorry for those earning 30K getting their pay cut. Then I realised how little tax those earning 30K pay and thatfor similar jobs in the private sector you wouldn't be getting near to 30K.

recedite

hobochris wrote: »

Thats well and good but its the damage it does to the economy I'm worried about. We have an economy with no major indigenous industry therefor depend of foreign investment a lot more for growth.

Now if I was an investor looking at the Irish market, where the government cannot manage the public services and their lack of leadership was causing civil unrest I would think twice before investing my money anywhere within an economy they have jurisdiction over.

The point is that we will eventually emerge phoenix-like with a different government, a more streamlined public service, and a private sector that these foreign firms can afford to hire.