Berbatov and Owen: Mid-Season review

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

(sigh)

2006/07 stats:

Carlos Tevez (West Ham) - 19 league starts, 7 goals, 5 assists

Dimitar Berbatov (Spurs) - 30 league starts, 12 goals, 11 assists

Result: Berbatov had a slightly better strike rate and a far better assists record.

2007/08 stats:

Carlos Tevez (Man Utd) - 31 league starts, 14 goals, 6 assists

Dimitar Berbatov (Spurs) - 33 league starts, 15 goals, 11 assists

Result: Berbatov had a marginally better strike rate and once again a far better assists record.

2008/09 stats:

Carlos Tevez (Man Utd) - 18 league starts, 5 goals, 3 assists

Dimitar Berbatov (Man Utd) - 29 league starts, 9 goals, 9 assists

Result: Berbatov yet again had a better strike rate and once again a comprehensively better assists record.

Perhaps this is why United fans justify Berbatov over Tevez?

Berbatov fairly ent downhill after he left Spurs on those stats.

2009/2010 stats

Tevez (city) 15 apps 5 goals 5 assists.

Berbatov (united) 14 apps 4 goals 2 assists.

For two players with a combined fee of £60m or thereabouts it's a poor attempt the last few seasons really.

Dempsey

Fuhrer wrote: »

Tevez outscored Berbatov is a lesser competetion and having played more 8 more games then him.


What measure do you want for a

Right, I'm done talking to the fanboys

Berbatov is brilliant, the best striker and contributes far more than anyone else, certainly more than a player that was mistreated by United last season and let leave because they paid soooo over the odds Berbatov. :rolleyes:

sprinkles

Dempsey wrote: »

Its a wonder why only league stats are rolled out when it suits.

I'm talking about a players contribution to a club which includes all competitive fixtures for a season.

Tevez outscored Berbatov last season and contributed far more to the team/club. Assists dont cover the total contribution to the team performance.

Well it's the league that matters and to be honest it's the only real competition that City and United are both fighting for equally. The league cup/FA cup is reserved for the United reserves and youngsters and the Champions League is reserved for the top 4 teams, which City are not part of.

Therefore rolling every competition into the stats confuses the facts.

I agree that Tevez works a lot harder, although Berba has stepped up quite a bit on this regard this season imo. However, Berba is a far more talented player. His touch and finishing are almost unrivaled in the league.

Fuhrer

Dempsey wrote: »

Right, I'm done talking to the fanboys

Berbatov is brilliant, the best striker and contributes far more than anyone else, certainly more than a player that was mistreated by United last season and let leave because they paid soooo over the odds Berbatov. :rolleyes:

You're right, stats and information are nothing compared to your opinion. I must be a fanboy for arguing against it. End of story tbh tbf BRB WTF LOL FTW

Paulegend

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

(sigh)

2008/09 stats:

Carlos Tevez (Man Utd) - 18 league starts, 5 goals, 3 assists

Dimitar Berbatov (Man Utd) - 29 league starts, 9 goals, 9 assists

Fuhrer wrote: »

Tevez outscored Berbatov is a lesser competetion and having played more 8 more games then him.


What measure do you want for a

oh dear:eek: not again

berbs played 11 more games in the premiership and that stat counted so why doesnt the stat of a lower comp?

Anthony16

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's clear to anyone with a set of eyes that Berbatov has bags of talent, way more than Tevez, he just hasn't consistently shown it, and that's a problem. Tevez on the other hand, is a good player, but runs around like a headless chicken most of the time, he's also bad for team morale with his constant bitching and whining.

At the moment, I wouldn't want either. But if both are on form, Berbatov wins hands down.

Finally,i agree with you on something:pac:

Fuhrer

Paulegend wrote: »

oh dear:eek: not again

berbs played 11 more games in the premiership and that stat counted so why doesnt the stat of a lower comp?

Because its a lower competition?

sprinkles

Fuhrer wrote: »

You're right, stats and information are nothing compared to your opinion. I must be a fanboy for arguing against it. End of story tbh tbf BRB WTF LOL FTW

Lads can ye take this to PM's please and free this thread from the pubescent bickering.

ps: using FTW BRB FTW etc, even in jest, immediately renders your argument null and void!

Anthony16

Paulegend wrote: »

oh dear:eek: not again

berbs played 11 more games in the premiership and that stat counted so why doesnt the stat of a lower comp?

Plus berba had a lot more STARTS i would imagine.Berba is too lazy.Bags of talent but just too lazy

Ush1

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

(sigh)

2008/09 stats:

Carlos Tevez (Man Utd) - 18 league starts, 5 goals, 3 assists

Dimitar Berbatov (Man Utd) - 29 league starts, 9 goals, 9 assists

Result: Berbatov yet again had a better strike rate and once again a comprehensively better assists record.

Perhaps this is why United fans justify Berbatov over Tevez?

Yeah, Berba scored 4 more goals in 11 extra games. Show goals per minutes for true accuracy.

Mr.Nice Guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Its a wonder why only league stats are rolled out when it suits.

I'm talking about a players contribution to a club which includes all competitive fixtures for a season.

Tevez outscored Berbatov last season and contributed far more to the team/club. Assists dont cover the total contribution to the team performance.

If we go by all competitions:

2008/09 stats:

Tevez: 39 starts, 16 goals, 7 assists

Berbatov: 50 starts, 20 goals, 10 assists

Result: Tevez has on average a goal every 2.4 games, Berbatov has a goal every 2.5 games. Tevez has an assist every 5.5 games, Berbatov has an assist every 5 games.

2007/08 stats:

Tevez: 45 starts, 19 goals, 9 assists

Berbatov: 48 starts, 23 goals, 15 assists

Result: Tevez with a goal every 2.3 games, Berbatov with a goal every 2.08 games. Tevez with an assist every 5 games on average, Berbatov with an assist every 3.2 games.

2006/07 stats:

Tevez: 39 starts, 20 goals, 7 assists

Berbatov: 53 starts, 30 goals, 15 assists

Result: Tevez with a goal record of a goal every 1.95 games, Berbatov with a goal every 1.76 games. Tevez with an assist every 5.57 games, Berbatov with an assist every 3.53 games.

So then, if we include all competitions, Tevez has only outscored Berbatov once - by the slimmest of margins - last season. In every other department the past three years Berbs has been the better player.

As already pointed out, on league form Tevez couldn't outscore Berbatov and many of his substantial contributions were in lesser competitions. For example he hit a hat-trick against Blackburn in the Carling Cup last season.

rarnes1 wrote:

Berbatov fairly ent downhill after he left Spurs on those stats.

Agreed. He can do better. However even when he isn't at his best he tends to outperform Tevez.

Paulegend

Anthony16 wrote: »

Plus berba had a lot more STARTS i would imagine.Berba is too lazy.Bags of talent but just too lazy

yea totally. always considered berba to be alot like viduka and kewell. they are lasy players who play well when it suits them. berba was brilliant at spurs but in fairness he was a big fish in a small pond there. if he went 10 games without scoring at spurs he is ok but if it happens at a top 4 club he would be slated

Paulegend

for what its worth more or less half way through the season now and tevez has a goal more than berbs. anyone know what the assists are? i dont know where to get those stats

Anthony16

Paulegend wrote: »

yea totally. always considered berba to be alot like viduka and kewell. they are lasy players who play well when it suits them. berba was brilliant at spurs but in fairness he was a big fish in a small pond there. if he went 10 games without scoring at spurs he is ok but if it happens at a top 4 club he would be slated

U read my thoughts:p

Dempsey

sprinkles wrote: »

Well it's the league that matters and to be honest it's the only real competition that City and United are both fighting for equally. The league cup/FA cup is reserved for the United reserves and youngsters and the Champions League is reserved for the top 4 teams, which City are not part of.

Therefore rolling every competition into the stats confuses the facts.

I agree that Tevez works a lot harder, although Berba has stepped up quite a bit on this regard this season imo. However, Berba is a far more talented player. His touch and finishing are almost unrivaled in the league.

I was arguing earlier about both players contribution to United last season and the internal politics being played because of their contracts/transfer fee/registration rather than their form. Tevez was given a raw deal last season by the Man United hierarchy and Berbatov got the red carpet treatment.

I dont think Berbatov can get any lazier than he did last season, all he did was poach goals. I dont think you would pay 30M for that unless he's a 30+ goal a season striker.

Do you think that Ferguson wants all those hard working attacking options so that he can have a lazy player like Berbatov walk about the pitch or does he want everyone grafting and through hard work the goals coming from more than the centre forward? I think Tevez suited the style he wants to play more so than Berbatov does but politics dictated that he should marginalize the loan player for the £30M player regardless of form. Thats what happened.

Paulegend

Anthony16 wrote: »

U read my thoughts:p

:Din fairness doubt we are the only people to think that

Dempsey

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If we go by all competitions:

2008/09 stats:

Tevez: 39 starts, 16 goals, 7 assists

Berbatov: 50 starts, 20 goals, 10 assists

Result: Tevez has on average a goal every 2.4 games, Berbatov has a goal every 2.5 games. Tevez has an assist every 5.5 games, Berbatov has an assist every 5 games.

2007/08 stats:

Tevez: 45 starts, 19 goals, 9 assists

Berbatov: 48 starts, 23 goals, 15 assists

Result: Tevez with a goal every 2.3 games, Berbatov with a goal every 2.08 games. Tevez with an assist every 5 games on average, Berbatov with an assist every 3.2 games.

2006/07 stats:

Tevez: 39 starts, 20 goals, 7 assists

Berbatov: 53 starts, 30 goals, 15 assists

Result: Tevez with a goal record of a goal every 1.95 games, Berbatov with a goal every 1.76 games. Tevez with an assist every 5.57 games, Berbatov with an assist every 3.53 games.

So then, if we include all competitions, Tevez has only outscored Berbatov once - by the slimmest of margins - last season. In every other department the past three years Berbs has been the better player.

As already pointed out, on league form Tevez couldn't outscore Berbatov and many of his substantial contributions were in lesser competitions. For example he hit a hat-trick against Blackburn in the Carling Cup last season.



Agreed. He can do better. However even when he isn't at his best he tends to outperform Tevez.

Do ya have a distance covered statistic there in your back pocket. That would give a good indication of contribution to the team, especially given the role that Tevez was asked to do more often than not.

Mr.Nice Guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Do ya have a distance covered statistic there in your back pocket. That would give a good indication of contribution to the team, especially given the role that Tevez was asked to do more often than not.

We know Tevez runs around more than Berbatov.

I'd love to know why you think that's relevant over goals and assists statistics in determining contribution to a team.

The words 'straws' and 'clutching' spring to mind.

Fuhrer

Running around the pitch is now considered to be great team play

Dempsey

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

We know Tevez runs around more than Berbatov.

I'd love to know why you think that's relevant over goals and assists statistics in determining contribution to a team.

The words 'straws' and 'clutching' spring to mind.

Ever play a match yourself?

tracking back, winning back possession, splitting defenders, ever hear of them?

Ferguson's current philosophy dictates that every player carries out defensive duties. Berbie didnt lift a finger, just used his intelligence :pac: and waited up front for someone else to win the ball back and get the ball back up the field for him in an attacking position.

Dempsey

Fuhrer wrote: »

Running around the pitch is now considered to be great team play

Closing down players, winning back possession and generally making it difficult for the opposition is considered team play by most :rolleyes:

Fuhrer

Dempsey wrote: »

Closing down players, winning back possession and generally making it difficult for the opposition is considered team play by most :rolleyes:

Being constanly out of position, out of breath and easily beaten by defenders is generally considered bad.

Mr.Nice Guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Ever play a match yourself?

tracking back, winning back possession, splitting defenders, ever hear of them?

Ferguson's current philosophy dictates that every player carries out defensive duties. Berbie didnt lift a finger, just used his intelligence :pac: and waited up front for someone else to win the ball back and get the ball back up the field for him in an attacking position.

Wow, keep digging mate. Ever hear of scoring and creating goals? As has been pointed out, Berbatov does that better than Tevez the last few seasons.

As for not lifting a finger and Ferguson's philosophy, there was another guy at United who had a similar disposition. Went by the name of Eric Cantona. Ended up doing pretty well for himself. As long as Berbatov contributes with goals and assists he will have a place at Old Trafford.

If you like watching sportsmen run around so much maybe athletics is more your cup of tea.

Dempsey

Fuhrer wrote: »

Being constanly out of position, out of breath and easily beaten by defenders is generally considered bad.

Does Ferguson use a rigid formation? I dont think so, players are expected to get about and know where each other are rather than everyone sticking to their own patch.

Fuhrer

Dempsey wrote: »

Does Ferguson use a rigid formation? I dont think so, players are expected to get about and know where each other are rather than everyone sticking to their own patch.

Usually when he puts a forward up front, he expects them to be up front

Dempsey

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wow, keep digging mate. Ever hear of scoring and creating goals? As has been pointed out, Berbatov does that better than Tevez the last few seasons.

As for not lifting a finger and Ferguson's philosophy, there was another guy at United who had a similar disposition. Went by the name of Eric Cantona. Ended up doing pretty well for himself. As long as Berbatov contributes with goals and assists he will have a place at Old Trafford.

If you like watching sportsmen run around so much maybe athletics is more your cup of tea.

Then why is Berbatov working harder this season? Do you think that is just him or the management telling him to work harder when United dont have the ball? Probably the reason why his goal tally is done to almost 1 every 4 games.

Cantona would struggle with the way the EPL has gone, its far more fitness based than it was in his time. Are you trying to convince me that Ferguson wants 9 hard working outfield players so they can carry Berbatov or does he want everyone grafting? Stop talking ****e please.

Fuhrer

Dempsey wrote: »

Are you trying to convince me that Ferguson wants 9 hard working outfield players so they can carry Berbatov or does he want everyone grafting? Stop talking ****e please.

You mean like how hes been doing with Ronaldo for the last couple of years?

Dempsey

Fuhrer wrote: »

Usually when he puts a forward up front, he expects them to be up front

How come Rooney often turns up at full back to win the ball? Explain that then?

Fuhrer

Dempsey wrote: »

How come Rooney often turns up at full back to win the ball? Explain that then?

Because he has Berbatov up front


When Tevez was there he was back in the defense, diving head first at players feet


Plus Rooney can actually take the ball forward and make a pass

Mr.Nice Guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Then why is Berbatov working harder this season? Do you think that is just him or the management telling him to work harder when United dont have the ball? Probably the reason why his goal tally is done to almost 1 every 4 games.

Cantona would struggle with the way the EPL has gone, its far more fitness based than it was in his time. Are you trying to convince me that Ferguson wants 9 hard working outfield players so they can carry Berbatov or does he want everyone grafting? Stop talking ****e please.

I can't really convince a person that doesn't want to hear it. I have shown you stats which reveal Berbatov has contributed more goals and assists than Tevez has in their time in the Premiership, yet you choose to dismiss all this and instead complain that Berbatov doesn't run around as much as Tevez. Who cares? Fergie obviously doesn't.

The primary role of a striker is to score and create, not show workrate. I also disagree that Cantona would struggle as he was blessed with plenty of pace and stamina when he needed to show it, it's just he had such natural ability on the ball that he didn't feel the need to run about relentlessly.

But hey, you continue thinking that me with my factual based evidence is talking ****e while you continue your desperate defence of players that resemble Rocky Balboa chasing after a chicken.

Dempsey

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I can't really convince a person that doesn't want to hear it. I have shown you stats which reveal Berbatov has contributed more goals and assists than Tevez has in their time in the Premiership, yet you choose to dismiss all this and instead complain that Berbatov doesn't run around as much as Tevez. Who cares? Fergie obviously doesn't.

The primary role of a striker is to score and create, not show workrate. I also disagree that Cantona would struggle as he was blessed with plenty of pace and stamina when he needed to show it, it's just he had such natural ability on the ball that he didn't feel the need to run about relentlessly.

But hey, you continue thinking that me with my factual based evidence is talking ****e while you continue your desperate defence of players that resemble Rocky Balboa chasing after a chicken.

Statistics!!

I'm sure I can churn out numbers to prove my point but I dont really care for some stats especially when you choose not to include stats that make your point look bad. You've also chosen to ignore my points about United's treatment of each player last season.

Ush1

Ultimate stat

Season with Tevez, Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo = CL.
Add Berbatov = no CL.:)

Anthony16

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I can't really convince a person that doesn't want to hear it. I have shown you stats which reveal Berbatov has contributed more goals and assists than Tevez has in their time in the Premiership, yet you choose to dismiss all this and instead complain that Berbatov doesn't run around as much as Tevez. Who cares? Fergie obviously doesn't.

The primary role of a striker is to score and create, not show workrate. I also disagree that Cantona would struggle as he was blessed with plenty of pace and stamina when he needed to show it, it's just he had such natural ability on the ball that he didn't feel the need to run about relentlessly.

But hey, you continue thinking that me with my factual based evidence is talking ****e while you continue your desperate defence of players that resemble Rocky Balboa chasing after a chicken.

Lets just stop the bitching.Tevez had a great 1st season with united-17 goals and loads of workrate and endeavour.Berbatov had a poor 1st season at united BY THE STANDARDS WE EXPECTED and offered little workrate.Berba hasnt improved much since .Tevez wasnt given a chance to improve in his 2nd season as fergie was stubborn in wanting the rooney berba partnership to click but it hasnt.Most fans would rather a player who works hard and ooesnt get many goals than a player who doesnt work hard and doesnt get many goals.Neither were prolific but when push came to shove in champions league semi v barca,tevez was man of the match.Iv never seen berba put in a performance like that

mink_man

berba - tickin over nicely...
owen - he can **** in a cup and he'd still be a great signing after gettin him for free and scorin the winner in the derby,,,

Ush1

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I can't really convince a person that doesn't want to hear it. I have shown you stats which reveal Berbatov has contributed more goals and assists than Tevez has in their time in the Premiership, yet you choose to dismiss all this and instead complain that Berbatov doesn't run around as much as Tevez. Who cares? Fergie obviously doesn't.

The primary role of a striker is to score and create, not show workrate. I also disagree that Cantona would struggle as he was blessed with plenty of pace and stamina when he needed to show it, it's just he had such natural ability on the ball that he didn't feel the need to run about relentlessly.

But hey, you continue thinking that me with my factual based evidence is talking ****e while you continue your desperate defence of players that resemble Rocky Balboa chasing after a chicken.

Emm, not really, the primary goal of any player is what the manager desires of them. I somehow doubt Heskey starts for England for his Van Nistelroy like prolificness.

Dempsey

Ush1 wrote: »

Ultimate stat

Season with Tevez, Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo = CL.
Add Berbatov = no CL.:)

He'll have you on the ignore list after that one :pac:

CountryWise

Please dont turn this into another Tevez thread if you rated him or not it doesnt matter at this point, he is gone

Owen:

With limited chances has pretty much done whats been asked, I think most would agree he looks much sharper now than in the early parts of the season and id expect that to improve,id expect him to get alot of game time in January and thats a reason to be optimistic at the business end of the season.

Berbatov:
Had a good start to the season and chipped in with a few goals and quite a few assists, I watched many of the games and he was a shoe-in for man of the match in a few he was working hard and providing plenty. He then hit injuries in October and I dont think he can rated properly by his performances since then because he hasnt played that many games and has been hampered by injuries.with his style of play I think he'l always be on the end of criticism

Valenica:
Very happy with him, getting better each week

Team:
Done exceptionally well, have had huge injury problems throughout the squad all season which has provided us with no consistency but yet we have managed to qualify early for the champions league knockouts and kept in touching distance in the league and the reserves have us in with a shout for the carling, some key players back and a strong January to May run and I think it could be a great "re-building" season.

nicklauski

I'm happy enough with the contribution of Owen so far. Hasnt started many games, but has a decent enough goal return. If he stays fit, he'll score more so what more can you ask for from a free transfer.

Now Berba. Fcuk me where to start.
Lets get this out of the way first, I think he is a fabolous footballer. Great technique, so natural on the ball and great link up. Now I wouldnt have a man crush on him like Dave, but the only thing that grinds my gears about him is this:

He will control a ball with no effort, play a ridiculous ball that shouldn't come off but does, and then stand there admiring it.
Don't admire it, break your arse getting into the box to get on the end of it. Your tall enough to be scoring headers for sport.

Im happy enough with him, but I still think there is another gear to come from him.

Jordonvito

Anthony16 wrote: »

Plus berba had a lot more STARTS i would imagine.Berba is too lazy.Bags of talent but just too lazy

hes put in alot more effort this season, the xmas period will tell alot abou berba.

Mr.Nice Guy

Ush1 wrote:

Ultimate stat

Season with Tevez, Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo = CL.
Add Berbatov = no CL.:)

That's a pretty irrelevant stat actually seeing as neither Tevez nor Berbatov started the Champions League final against Barcelona.

Ush1 wrote: »

Emm, not really, the primary goal of any player is what the manager desires of them. I somehow doubt Heskey starts for England for his Van Nistelroy like prolificness.

Yes really. If it was felt he wasn't able to create chances for the likes of Rooney and others he wouldn't be in there.

The primary role of a striker is to score and create which Berbatov has done more than Tevez, based on recent seasons.

kinaldo

Is it just me or has almost every Man Utd fan converted to the opinion that Tevez was just 'huff and puff' or a 'waste of space'?

And are these the same fans that were chanting his name at the Man City game at the back end of last season to encourage him to stay?

Pro. F

Dempsey wrote: »

Cantona would struggle with the way the EPL has gone, its far more fitness based than it was in his time.

lol this type of nonsense always amazes me.

daveyboy_1ie

kinaldo wrote: »

Is it just me or has almost every Man Utd fan converted to the opinion that Tevez was just 'huff and puff' or a 'waste of space'?

And are these the same fans that were chanting his name at the Man City game at the back end of last season to encourage him to stay?

He was handy to have as a striker. But NEVER in a million years worth £25.5 million. Even worse, becuase Joorabchian was not able to walk away from that agreement with United which was set in stone and could only be stopped if the player himself said no, then he was able to renogotiate with Man City and actually manage to get £42 million for him. Therein lies the real reason he did not sign for United, nothing to do with being treated badly or whatever. The agreement was in place to sign him and United did not have to commit until the due date.

Joorabchin & Tevez worked out between them they could make an extra £16.5 million between them by signing for City instead of United and to that end you cannot blame him.

Boggles

kinaldo wrote: »

Is it just me or has almost every Man Utd fan converted to the opinion that Tevez was just 'huff and puff' or a 'waste of space'?

And are these the same fans that were chanting his name at the Man City game at the back end of last season to encourage him to stay?

In fairness to the fans trying to get him to stay they didn't know the full story, I would have been one of those fans.

mayordenis

Boggles wrote: »

In fairness to the fans trying to get him to stay they didn't know the full story, I would have been one of those fans.

what full story is that now Boggles?

Boggles

mayordenis wrote: »

what full story is that now Boggles?

Denis for a guy who spends vast amounts of time on here and reading about football, I think you may know.

mayordenis

Boggles wrote: »

Denis for a guy who spends vast amounts of time on here and reading about football, I think you may know.

Getting forgetful in my old age, entertain me.

Boggles

mayordenis wrote: »

Getting forgetful in my old age, entertain me.

Deal offered to Tevez before the Inter Game, which was ignored.

His owner was dealing with City 2 months before that, money, money, etc.

mayordenis

GOD DAM THAT TEVEZ GOD DAM

Boggles

mayordenis wrote: »

GOD DAM THAT TEVEZ GOD DAM

Don't worry about it Denis, you should be more concerned about yer money hungry sulking argentinian.