My Speeding and Undue Care & Attention Situation - Unjust, IMO

corktina · 17-12-2009 10:01am

ShadowHearth wrote: »

i am not the only one... and yeah... you do go 100km/h on that road? I would actually love to see it. And "sideways" was figurative speech in beggining.

seriously there are some bad bends on that road but to suggest you couldnt cruise at 100k for the majority of it is nonsense....wanna ride with me and play spot the gard and I'll show you?;) The mallow Kildorrey road is far worse and yet you can still acheive 100k on it in parts.

Mark#1 · 17-12-2009 11:09am

corktina wrote: »

my take on the situation is that the OP PROBABLY squeezed past the moped, cutting the white line a little and broke the speed limit slightly.To the gards it may have appeared he didnt give the moped enough room, he is after all entitled to half the road.

To bold italics: nope - I was fully on the other side of the white line, a point I'm sure the Gardai noted. The moped was bang smack in the middle of his lane, where he's entitled to be. I gave as much room as I'd have given a car.

Mark

corktina · 17-12-2009 11:45am

Mark#1 wrote: »

To bold italics: nope - I was fully on the other side of the white line, a point I'm sure the Gardai noted. The moped was bang smack in the middle of his lane, where he's entitled to be. I gave as much room as I'd have ridden a car.

Mark

fair enough, my assumption withdrawn with apologies.

oceans 11 · 04-01-2010 12:43pm

Has anybody any experience of getting Summonse for not paying speeding fine???

I never received the fine so I couldn`t pay it!!!!

Does this wash in Court???

grudgebringer · 04-01-2010 3:04pm

To the OP, I feel for you as from your posts you appear to be a genuine guy who does not generally act in a dangerous manner whilst driving and have accepted that you need to accept the fine for Speeding/Undue care and attention.

I guess in this case you were unlucky but sh1t happens and it seems you have already gotten on with it while some people are still debating your guilt .... hope the fine remains at 80 quid and your employment situation works itself out soon. God Bless

Mark#1 · 18-01-2010 6:48pm

I got 2 €80 fines, along with 2 points associated with each offence.

One was for "Crossing a continuous (double) white line". I don't remember the exact quote for the other one, but it was basically something like driving without reasonable care. No mention of speeding on either notice. Does that suggest that they didn't actually record my speed? Or that they couldn't prove what speed I was doing?

So I paid the €160 at the post office anyway, and I await my points. How long do points stay on your licence? How badly does 4 points affect your insurance renewal?

IMO, €160 & 4 points is not proportional to what I did wrong, but . . .

When I went to present my licence & ins cert, I couldn't find my licence, so I contacted the licence office to get a replacement and was told that it had expired in May. The Garda I spoke with in the station told me I could be looking at maybe a fine of €1000 and a 2 year ban for driving without a licence.

I had 3 Garda that I know personally offer to speak with the Garda that stopped me and see if they could do anything, but I asked all of them not to - I didn't want to jeopardise my already delicate position.

When the replacement licence arrived in the post, I called the station and they took all the details and said that was all I needed to do, and don't worry about anything.

Can I assume from the fact that I've already received the notices, paid the fines, and did produce my licence (albeit with a side-story of its own) that that's as far as it's going?

Thanks again for all your replies,

Mark

CharlieCroker · 18-01-2010 6:59pm

The offence is failure to produce a licence within the required time.
Also, if i read it correctly, the licence was out of date at the time of the offence? If that is the case, the Guard involved may summons you again for driving without a licence.

Redsoxfan · 18-01-2010 8:36pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

How long do points stay on your licence? How badly does 4 points affect your insurance renewal?

3 years from the date of issue (not the date of the offence) and 4 points shouldn't affect your insurance, but it depends on the insurer I guess.

Redsoxfan · 18-01-2010 8:45pm

Mark#1 wrote:

I got 2 €80 fines, along with 2 points associated with each offence.

One was for "Crossing a continuous (double) white line". I don't remember the exact quote for the other one, but it was basically something like driving without reasonable care. No mention of speeding on either notice. Does that suggest that they didn't actually record my speed? Or that they couldn't prove what speed I was doing?

I don't understand this part-how did the OP manage to get 2 sets of 2 points? I thought you can only get points for 1 offence at a time?

penaltypoints.ie wrote:

Q. What happens if I am stopped and a number of penalty point offences are detected?

Will I receive penalty points for each one? No. Using the scenario from the previous answer it should be borne in mind that the same driver in that scenario could have committed a speeding offence also and have been uninsured. The no-insurance offence is not a fixed charge offence so if convicted in court for driving without insurance and 5 penalty points are imposed then that being the highest number of penalty points attaching to any of the multiple offences involved would be the total number of penalty points endorsed on that drivers licence record on this occasion. The fixed charge for every individual offence, or a fine in court for every individual convicted offence, would apply however.

Shane732 · 18-01-2010 9:07pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I don't understand this part-how did the OP manage to get 2 sets of 2 points? I thought you can only get points for 1 offence at a time?

I was of the same opinion - it's something you should certainly check out. I haven't checked the legislation but I'm pretty sure you can only get penalty points for one offence at a time.

If this is the case then you have serious grounds to have the case thrown out. There's no way a judge would allow the points stand if this is the case.

Ryan T · 18-01-2010 9:16pm

Having read the entire post - may i offer the following advice. Cop on -pay your fines- stop moaning about it-learn your lesson- and finally become a responsible driver

Shane732 · 19-01-2010 12:14am

Ryan T wrote: »

Having read the entire post - may i offer the following advice. Cop on -pay your fines- stop moaning about it-learn your lesson- and finally become a responsible driver

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....

Zero penalty points doesn't mean you are without sin, it's just means you haven't been caught.

leahcim · 19-01-2010 1:16am

It seems like a very harsh punishment for something I see every second driver on the road doing, sometimes you need to just put these things down to bad luck. The gardai are just doing their job.

On the whole out of date driving licence problem, I had a similar problem myself, two days before heading off to france on the ferry with the car I was packing my documents when my wife noticed my driving licence had expired a year previously. I couldn't believe I was so careless. Got the licence renewed before going on the ferry. Lucky I did as I was stopped twice by french police checkpoints where on both occasions they have a good look at my licence.

Mark#1 · 19-01-2010 10:53am

Ryan T wrote: »

Having read the entire post - may i offer the following advice. Cop on -pay your fines- stop moaning about it-learn your lesson- and finally become a responsible driver

Thanks for yor input Ryan, but I doubt you've read the entire post:

I already said I have paid the fines, I've been asking questions more than moaning, lesson is learned (the lesson being that what is in reality a small wrong is technically a black & white wrong).

Finally become a responsible driver? Again, you can't have read the entire thread, as I did say early on that this is the first encounter I've had with the Gardai since I started driving in 1999 (and riding motorbikes since 1991, BTW). Nor have I had any crash or incident, excepting the one where a drunk driver hit me.

I'm tempted to call you a muppet, but I'm sure the forum rules don't allow it, so I won't . . .

To other posters, if anyone else can offer a comment or advice on the 2 + 2 points or the expired licence, I'd be grateful.

To be clear: I got 2 points for one offence and the other 2 for the other offence.

Mark

-Chris- · 19-01-2010 11:40am

Mark#1 wrote: »

I'm tempted to call you a muppet, but I'm sure the forum rules don't allow it, so I won't . . .

Hi Mark,

People not reading the whole thread, reading what they want into the thread, answering a question that wasn't asked, giving answers that they think are right or just using a person's question to get up on a high horse is par for the course on an internet forum - ignore it and move on.

Comments like this aren't cool however, it's a direct insult and as you say, against the forum charter.

Please refrain.

Thanks

Redsoxfan · 19-01-2010 12:06pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

To be clear: I got 2 points for one offence and the other 2 for the other offence.

I understand that-but I didn't think it was actually possible to get 2 sets of points at a single stop under the penalty points legislation.

Perhaps one of the AGS members could comment?

Mark#1 · 19-01-2010 12:49pm

-Chris- wrote: »

Hi Mark,

People not reading the whole thread, reading what they want into the thread, answering a question that wasn't asked, giving answers that they think are right or just using a person's question to get up on a high horse is par for the course on an internet forum - ignore it and move on.

Comments like this aren't cool however, it's a direct insult and as you say, against the forum charter.

Please refrain.

Thanks

Apologies. Comments taken on board.

Mark

alias no.9 · 19-01-2010 2:08pm

Shane732 wrote: »

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.....

Zero penalty points doesn't mean you are without sin, it's just means you haven't been caught.

Very true on the zero penalty points meaning nothing more than not having been caught but similarly, someone will rarely get penalty points for an offence that they've only ever comitted once.

Hooch · 19-01-2010 2:45pm

Redsoxfan wrote: »

I understand that-but I didn't think it was actually possible to get 2 sets of points at a single stop under the penalty points legislation.

Perhaps one of the AGS members could comment?

Its not down to a single stop. Example - If I was operating a speed check and detected you speeding, while at the same time you crossed a con white line, then while I could issue you two tickets only the highest set of penalty points apply. So therefore you get a €160 fine and two points.

On the other hand if I detected someone speeding, and while following the vehicle to stop it observed it crossing a white line, then both tickets would be issued and both sets of penalty points would apply.....

In the O/Ps case I would presume when he gets his notification of points applied, it will state two only and not four as he is expecting. If he recieves 4 points.....I would be contacting the RSA immediatly.

Ryan T · 19-01-2010 3:58pm

Yes Mark speeding and crossing a double continious white line are the actions of a responsible driver.Very clever

-Chris- · 19-01-2010 4:21pm

-Chris- wrote: »

...or just using a person's question to get up on a high horse ...

And 5 posts later, here we are...

Ryan T wrote: »

Yes Mark speeding and crossing a double continious white line are the actions of a responsible driver.Very clever

100gSoma · 19-01-2010 4:29pm

@ OP: The fixed penalty notice for "allegation of speeding" usually has the speed you were travelling at as recorded by the Garda and also the speed limit on said road. You say your notice has 2 points for you and no details of the alleged speed of your vehicle?

@Charliecroker: Hi. Im familiar with the attitude test etc, and have had occasional dealings with the Gardai for traffic related stops. These encounters always went smoothly as I was respectful and rational. One was for speeding (caught on gun), and I accepted I was over the limit and that was that. No problems. However, I wanted to ask a question about the line between cooperation and privacy. The OP said he was asked "a million questions". Where he was, where he worked, what he was doing etc. As I understand it, the citizen is under no obligation to answer question of this nature. If charged with an alleged offence (speeding etc) of course the person must give their name and address, but I thought the other questioning is not something the driver needs to get into. i.e. If Im redundant and don't wish to disclose this fact and choose to ignore the "where are you working question" will I be deemed to be uncooperative and fail the attitude test? It's not something I've dealt with as any interactions I've had with gardai have never strayed into this territory and have been professional and mutually respectful. In saying all that, Im not one of these "smart arse" types who gardai regularly deal with. Case in point, I was stopped by a gardai one night after leaving work very late. He asked me where I was coming from, and where I was going to, but I understood he was simply engaging me in conversation to assess the situation rather than being nosey. (I was leaving an industrial estate in a sports car at 930pm etc). I have no problem with that. but it sounds like the OP maybe answered a lot more questions than he needed to.

marinbike · 19-01-2010 4:57pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

I got stopped by the Garda tonight on my way home from a friend's house.

I had overtaken a moped just as a double continuous white line changed to a single dotted white line. I deliberately waited till the double whites ended, even though I had more than enough visibility to make the move long before the double whites ended.

Garda said I crossed the double white. I was genuinely surprised, but accepted that the back of my car could have crossed the double whites, so I asked was I over the double whites for long. He said it didn't matter - it was black & white: I was over the line and that's all that matters.

They also said I was doing 120kmh (in an 80 limit). They'd asked if I knew why they'd stopped me, and I said I was probably going a little fast. One chuckled and said 120. I drive a 90hp Alhambra. It weighs 2400kg. It takes half an hour an a lot of passanger hooshing to hit 120 on a flat motorway, let alone going up the hill they stopped me on... I reckon I was hitting around 100, which is still technically speeding, so fair enough. But this was a completely empty straight stretch of A road - who wouldn't be doing 100kmh? They said they "had to hit 125 to chase" me. Chase me . . .

The only other vehicle on the road, in front or behind, was that moped.

Aparrently, I'm being sent out two fines: one for driving with undue care & attention (the overtake), one for speeding.

How big a deal would it have been to just tell me to slow things down and send me on my way home. The double whites is a farce of a charge, and they exaggerated my speeding charge. They asked a million questions too - where was I coming from, where was I going, what had I been doing in the place that I was coming from, had I been drinking, where was I working - tons of questions.

TBH, there was something naiive in me that got me wondering if they'd let me go once they added a few bits of info about me together: I was made redundant earlier this year (so I'm broke), I drive a big family car (so it's likely I have kids), I'm coming home from doing something that I'm trying to do to better things for my family, it's Christmas, and the reasons for pulling me over were really a little thin.

I haven't bothered looking up the definitions of "undue", "care" & "attention" - I reckon I have a pretty good idea what they, and the phrase they collectively create, mean. But I wasn't driving with undue care & attention - I deliberately held off on my manouevre till the double whites ended, even though I could see for maybe 1 straight km that the road was completely clear. IMO, my driving would have been more accurately described as "driving with exceptional care, and consideration for an illogical road marking".

But they did say that because the road was pretty empty, they weren't going to bring me to court, so long as I produce my licence & insurance cert within 10 days, and pay the fines in good time.

So . . .

Is the speeding fine a fixed €80?

What's the fine for "undue care & attention"?

Will I get points on my licence?

Any point in appealing anything?

Rip Off Ireland? Alive & well & kicking a man when he's down . . . At christmas . . .

Thanks for any replies,

Mark

In my opinion, you could have contested the 'driving with undue attention' one. They should have done you for speeding, if they claim they were doing up to 120km/h to pace you. To me, it looks like they done you for the wrong violation.

CharlieCroker · 19-01-2010 4:58pm

I wasn't there so cant really comment on what the OP was and wasn't asked.
I dont really care where someone is going to or coming from. If I ask, its cos i want to know is the driver locked and talking is the quickest way to determine that or has the driver a reason to be in a place, like you in an industrial park. If you work there, fair enough but if not, are you there for a more sinister reason.

marinbike · 19-01-2010 5:00pm

Ryan T wrote: »

Yes Mark speeding and crossing a double continious white line are the actions of a responsible driver.Very clever

And what gives you the right to look down on other people in a judgmental manner?

-Chris- · 19-01-2010 5:10pm

marinbike wrote: »

And what gives you the right to look down on other people in a judgmental manner?

OK, leave the trolls alone.

If you ignore them they disappear.

Hooch · 19-01-2010 5:21pm

CharlieCroker wrote: »

I wasn't there so cant really comment on what the OP was and wasn't asked.
I dont really care where someone is going to or coming from. If I ask, its cos i want to know is the driver locked and talking is the quickest way to determine that or has the driver a reason to be in a place, like you in an industrial park. If you work there, fair enough but if not, are you there for a more sinister reason.

Or if your rushing to the hospital etc......

Ryan T · 19-01-2010 5:24pm

Trolls???excuse me moderator but the purpose of boards is for expression of opinion and to help one another if possibleEven if my opinion is not the same as everyone else then I am surely still allowed to express it. If you only want yes men on here you should have said so

-Chris- · 19-01-2010 5:32pm

Ryan T wrote: »

Trolls???excuse me moderator but the purpose of boards is for expression of opinion and to help one another if possibleEven if my opinion is not the same as everyone else then I am surely still allowed to express it. If you only want yes men on here you should have said so

In what way were you trying to add to the thread with your sarcastic response?

How did your post add to the discussion at hand?

I don't care if you're a yes or a no man, and I haven't shared my opinion so you don't even know how I feel towards Mark for his driving.

If you're going to state an opinion, work away, but I fail to see how your post could even be classified as an opinion - it reads more like an accusation.

If you have any further issues with my moderation, please PM me or escalate it and PM KBannon, our Motors CMod. Don't bring it on-thread.

Thanks

Mark#1 · 19-01-2010 5:40pm

CharlieCroker wrote: »

I wasn't there so cant really comment on what the OP was and wasn't asked.
I dont really care where someone is going to or coming from. If I ask, its cos i want to know is the driver locked and talking is the quickest way to determine that or has the driver a reason to be in a place, like you in an industrial park. If you work there, fair enough but if not, are you there for a more sinister reason.

I'm pretty sure that's what this Garda was doing, and I thought so at the time. I was fine with this, and I never felt he was being nosey. I was just surprised at the amount of questions.

I've already received two separate offence notices, both in the same envelope, each with a separate reference number.

The description of one was (this is an exact quote): "crossing a continuous (double) white line". There was an €80 fixed fine for this, and it said that if I paid the fine I was accepting the 2 penalty points.

The description of the other was something like: driving without reasonable care. This is not an exact quote - I didn't record what the notice said. It wasn't "driving with undue care & attention". There was an €80 fixed fine for this one too, and it also said that if I paid the fine I was accepting the 2 penalty points.

The "crossing a continuous (double) white line" notice definitely contained nothing referring to speeding or my speed.

I'm not 100% certain that the "driving without reasonable care" one didn't mention speeding, but I am certain it didn't contain a speed reading or statement of my speed.

TBH, I'm reluctant to go any further with this, with the uncertainty of the situation regarding my licence having been expired - do I need to rock the boat?

I've already paid the fines and have my receipts.

If I knew I was in the clear regarding the licence, I might ask some more questions, but to be honest, being down €160, while a bit nasty, isn't the end of the world. The 4 points is the bit that's hard to swallow. But despite these points, I have to ask myself, do I want to appeal (or even query) and risk a much bigger fine and a 2 year ban?

Conversely, I don't know what I'd do if I knew I was definitely in the soup for the expired licence.

I know I did wrong, and that the law is black and white, but I feel in my own gut that 4 points is not proportional to what I did wrong.

How does the fact that I've already paid the fines bear on things now?

Ryan, you're almost right - one of the purposes of baords is the expression of opinion. I've expressed many on here. But another (of the many) purposes is to seek help, advice & information. That's what this thread is.

So, respectfully, can you lurk with your opinions somewhere else please? Who knows - I may even be asking a question sometime that you can help me with, or vice-versa.

Mods, that's not intended as baiting - I'm asking for some real info & advice here for a serious situation I'm in (and thankfully getting plenty), and this guy has posted nothing of any help, and I can see this thread veering OT into some tit-for-tatting.

Thanks yet again for all replies,

Mark

Hooch · 19-01-2010 5:45pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that's what this Garda was doing, and I thought so at the time. I was fine with this, and I never felt he was being nosey. I was just surprised at the amount of questions.

I've already received two separate offence notices, both in the same envelope, each with a separate reference number.

The description of one was (this is an exact quote): "crossing a continuous (double) white line". There was an €80 fixed fine for this, and it said that if I paid the fine I was accepting the 2 penalty points.

The description of the other was something like: driving without reasonable care. This is not an exact quote - I didn't record what the notice said. It wasn't "driving with undue care & attention". There was an €80 fixed fine for this one too, and it also said that if I paid the fine I was accepting the 2 penalty points.

Mark,

If you recieved both notices in the same envelope with the same reference number then you will only recieve one set of points. So rest a little easy your only getting 2 points. The reason both said you'd accept fine/points is that they are a standard FCPN. They dont change for multiple offences.

On the Section 51a, Driving without reasonable care......this ticket may not refer to speed. A Sec 51a ticket can be issued for failure to indicate overtaking, tailgating, only one dip light, only one rear light etc etc. It is a ticket that can be used for a whole range of offences.

hope this helps

-Chris- · 19-01-2010 5:49pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

Mods, that's not intended as baiting - I'm asking for some real info & advice here for a serious situation I'm in (and thankfully getting plenty), and this guy has posted nothing of any help, and I can see this thread veering OT into some tit-for-tatting.

It's not an issue Mark, the fact is that the next person who tits or tats is taking a week off.

Mark#1 · 19-01-2010 5:55pm

100gSoma wrote: »

@ OP: The fixed penalty notice for "allegation of speeding" usually has the speed you were travelling at as recorded by the Garda and also the speed limit on said road. You say your notice has 2 points for you and no details of the alleged speed of your vehicle?

Neither notice contained anything about "allegation of speeding", nor any info about my speed, and I don't remember anything about the speed limit.

marinbike wrote: »

In my opinion, you could have contested the 'driving with undue attention' one. They should have done you for speeding, if they claim they were doing up to 120km/h to pace you. To me, it looks like they done you for the wrong violation.

So it's too late for me to do anything now, after I've already paid the fines?

nice guy always wrote: »

Mark,

If you recieved both notices in the same envelope with the same reference number then you will only recieve one set of points. So rest a little easy your only getting 2 points. The reason both said you'd accept fine/points is that they are a standard FCPN. They dont change for multiple offences.

On the Section 51a, Driving without reasonable care......this ticket may not refer to speed. A Sec 51a ticket can be issued for failure to indicate overtaking, tailgating, only one dip light, only one rear light etc etc. It is a ticket that can be used for a whole range of offences.

hope this helps

That's the thing - each separate notice had a different reference number.

I never recorded the reference numbers - is there a way I can get the details of them somewhere? I still don't even know the names of the Gardai that stopped me, or even where they're based.

Thanks again,

Mark

Hooch · 19-01-2010 7:29pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

That's the thing - each separate notice had a different reference number.

I never recorded the reference numbers - is there a way I can get the details of them somewhere? I still don't even know the names of the Gardai that stopped me, or even where they're based.

Thanks again,

Mark

You can call into any Garda station and ask them to check the FCPS using your name and or vehicle reg number. Or you can contact the FCPS office in Thurles and they will inform you of details and points etc.

I would be happy enough that since they arrived in the same envelope they only carry one set of points.

Mark#1 · 21-01-2010 9:50am

I got a Notice Of Endorsement Of Penalty Points in the post yesterday.

It's for the crossing the double white lines. I got nothing for the other offence, but there's a paragraph that says:

"If this offence took place in the same incident as another offence in respect of which a lower number of penalty points have already been applied, the higher number of penalty points associated with this offence will now be applied to your record and those originally applied will be removed."

There's also the line: "Total Penalty Points on yor record including this offence: 2"

Even though both my sets of points in the offence notices were 2, should I interpret from the paragraph that I'm only getting 2 points in total, as Nice Guy Always suggested ?

Thanks,

Mark

The-Game · 22-01-2010 10:01pm

Mark#1 wrote: »

I got a Notice Of Endorsement Of Penalty Points in the post yesterday.

It's for the crossing the double white lines. I got nothing for the other offence, but there's a paragraph that says:

"If this offence took place in the same incident as another offence in respect of which a lower number of penalty points have already been applied, the higher number of penalty points associated with this offence will now be applied to your record and those originally applied will be removed."

There's also the line: "Total Penalty Points on yor record including this offence: 2"

Even though both my sets of points in the offence notices were 2, should I interpret from the paragraph that I'm only getting 2 points in total, as Nice Guy Always suggested ?

Thanks,

Mark

Yep that should be it done now.