Graduate medicine Loans

Roger_that

Palo Alto wrote: »

Really worried by this; got a mark in GAMSAT that luckily lets me choose between the colleges but without a loan of the magnitude of the AIB one, it'll be impossible for me to afford. (would be moving down from the north)

Got a reply back from RCSI saying they have meetings scheduled with BoI/Ulsterbank and are also reaching out to other UK banks and they will update the website accordingly with any updates. I would be shocked if one of the other banks with a better balance sheet than AIB wouldn't fill the void but after all the hassle and work I put in to GAMSAT the last 6 months (including leaving my job) I really could do without this additional worry!

Any updates/news on the other colleges appreciated, hard to know whether I should change the order of preference if more likely to get a loan for another course but it all seems up in the air.

Thanks for the update. We're in similar situations. I've gotten confirmation from UCD and AIB that the loan is finished for new applicants. That's about it. I've enquirer as to the terms of another loan package that they could come up with and await reply.

UCD has always been my first choice but I would consider changing that to UCC or RCSI on the basis of appropriate finance becoming available with the right terms.

It's a huge mess really.

I'll post any more info as I get it.

Palo Alto

Thanks, aye it's the same for me, no particular preferance of course really (although quite fancy living in Cork) but it's entirely contingent on securing funding

Palo Alto

Whole load of callbacks scheduled, will post updates as I get them.

How much do kidneys and other non-essential organs fetch these days?

Nanorman

Hi everyone! What the banks told me:

Ulster Bank: Last year apparently it was fees only and that is not feasible for students but 25000 a year is not possible either as people are defaulting. So they are hoping to give fees and SOME money, but just enough to live. They said fees will increase, an example they gave was UL. Fees for UL were 13,900 last year and up to 15,900 this year! They will know in 2 weeks and I will talk to them then for everyone interested.
The lady said to get the loan you need 6 months of bank statements, all previous loan statements, a bank account with them and credit union statements. It is about 4% until we graduate.

AIB The lady I talked to said they pulled the loan completely as people were not paying back, AIB are offering only student loans with the normal high interest, something too high I would say (~9%). She was surprised they pulled it too, but it was just not in their interest anymore as there was a surprising amount of people who defaulted and a lot of work restructuring the repayments.

Bank of Ireland: Loan seems to be staying the same according to the bank, but I will have to call back in 2 weeks to be certain. This loan is the only one Id say that will be 100K but requires a guarantor. They said you could be from any school in Ireland and apply so I would assume it is the same with them all, just a coincidence which bank is in which school?? (Sorry I didn't ask Ulster bank that).

Both Ulster and BOI require you to be a resident in Ireland for 10+ years and be an Irish citizen.

dmccormack01

jesus, i think my decision to take another year out to work has been made for me! thanks for getting that info!

Roger_that

Thanks very much for the update nanorman. So ulster bank might be the saving grace for a lot of people. Do you know if they require a guarantor and also what the interest rate is post graduation?

I'm very surprised that people aren't paying it back... Good luck getting any more loans for the rest of your life if you choose that path. I wonder if genuine struggle or greed/idiocy is the reason for non-payment

Bonnieaurstomp

So fees will increase and potential students will find it harder to access the kind of funds necessary to make it possible to do the course. Can Graduate Entry Medicine really survive much longer?

Nanorman

It seemed to me that the people not paying back were just students that had bad luck/bad money management. In saying that, most could pay back, but the repayments are really high; good money budgeting and close management for the first two or three years is crucial.

The lady I talked to in Ulster bank seemed very informed about the loans and did not tell me I needed a guarantor. She gave me a detailed list of things I had to get for the loan with no mention of the guarantor (The things I mentioned earlier) BUT I didn't ask so I'm not certain. Sorry. She told me to call a certain number in two weeks for the person in charge of the loans, I will make sure to ask then!

The man I spoke to in BOI seemed very unsure of himself and asked someone else 2-3 times but in his defense he did ask and that is what they said.

The interest rates for Ulster bank post graduation shoots up and I believe she said somewhere in the +9% range.

All the info I was given was preliminary but hopefully something can be sorted out for us!

The only advice I can give is if you have a bank account like AIB (like me) but wish to get a loan from say BOI or UB, get all the documents ready to set up an account and/or switch accounts when the offers come out (or even before if you are sure which loan you want (something I hope to be able to tell you in around 2 weeks)).

(For both setting up an account and switching): You need the form from the bank, photo ID, an ESB bill in your name or Bank statement sent to your house (show recent living status), bank statement showing recent activity... I think thats it.
It takes a few days to switch over and you aren't allowed to use either account for those days (no paying for deposits etc) and I am sure someone posted on here was saying get your loan soon to avoid problems.
I need to switch as I have savings and job payments going into my AIB but my loan money will be with UB/BOI.

Roger_that

Thanks again nanorman... I'm slightly more relieved. It's still uncomfortable not knowing the full details but at least there is some cause for optimism.

It's definitely going to be hard to pay back initially especially once the 9+% kicks in but as the borrower on a (hopefully) unsecured loan you have their money so they'll have to negotiate on a reasonable repayment schedule.

Joe2011

I don't know if any of you saw the political program with Nora Owens last night. It was showing how it was more beneficial to be on social welfare with all benefits, than take a job with a salary 40,000 per year. It also outlined how difficult it is to live in Ireland on that salary with the cost of living.
Bearing in mind that a basic intern salary is roughly 33,000, I can only imagine that those trying to repay the 100,000 loan would genuinely struggle. So I am not surprised that people have defaulted on the loan, and id say it is not by choice they have come into difficulty. I can only assume that they were originally factoring in overtime, which would raise the yearly salary significantly. However, with the gem programmes starting to produce many more doctors now and the EU directive due to be imposed here over the next three years, overtime is not something we could bank on anymore. I imagine this would be a consideration of the banks.

Joe2011

Nanorman wrote: »

Hi everyone! What the banks told me:

Ulster Bank: Last year apparently it was fees only and that is not feasible for students but 25000 a year is not possible either as people are defaulting. So they are hoping to give fees and SOME money, but just enough to live. They said fees will increase, an example they gave was UL. Fees for UL were 13,900 last year and up to 15,900 this year! They will know in 2 weeks and I will talk to them then for everyone interested.
The lady said to get the loan you need 6 months of bank statements, all previous loan statements, a bank account with them and credit union statements. It is about 4% until we graduate.

Thanks for going to the bother to find out all of this. Just a little confusion I have is: If the fees are increased to nearly 16,000 and they are unwilling to lend 25,000, where is the scope for "some" living expenses? How little do people assume the could live on, within the Dublin area?

del85

Nanorman wrote: »

It seemed to me that the people not paying back were just students that had bad luck/bad money management. In saying that, most could pay back, but the repayments are really high; good money budgeting and close management for the first two or three years is crucial.

Hey Nanorman, did the lady go into any detail about why people were failing to pay the money back?

Nanorman

I'm not sure how much one would need to cover living expenses for an entire year in Dublin but the lady was hopeful that some living expenses would be covered by Ulster Bank but she had no idea really. I guess it is somewhat good only fees were covered last year so they can see it is unfair for the student to be expected to have thousands to live off.

The AIB lady was understanding of my position and told me that some students were defaulting because the bank was asking for a large payment each month (Dont quote me but I thought it was 1,790). For comparison BOI asks for 1,301.48 a month.

Joe2011

Oh right, that is very steep. I always taught AIB was more competitive than BOI. I wonder if may people who borrowed fees only defaulted on any payments or have they managed to balance their accounts after qualifying, if they had their own savings/family support for living expenses

GradMed

Nanorman wrote: »

(Dont quote me but I thought it was 1,790). For comparison BOI asks for 1,301.48 a month.

Yikes, seeing as I'll only take home 2,100 ish a month AIB is going to be sorely disappointed when I speak to them next week.

p.s sorry for quoting you

Nanorman

GradMed wrote: »

Yikes, seeing as I'll only take home 2,100 ish a month AIB is going to be disappointed when I speak to them next week.

p.s sorry for quoting you

Haha, np with the quoting. Also thanks for the appreciation everyone!
I was looking up Intern salaries in Ireland this year and it looks to be a minimum of 30,257 so around 2500 a month? So maybe a little better? BUT after looking at it I must apologise for my earlier comment claiming bad money management was a contributing factor; after the loan payment you have around 700 euro a month? Most people have rent, others have cars and some have children etc. I'm sure you'll be fine GradMed, they must realise by now that is too much to ask for graduates!

Joe2011

Yeh I know what you mean. Looking at how frugally most interns currently live, who had free fees from school, the repayments seem very unrealistic under these terms. I don't see how aib ever gave the go ahead for this package in the first place.

dmccormack01

Finally starting to realise the enormity of this loan!
i thought graduate medicine was about increasing doctor numbers, while making it more accessible.....more accessible to the mega rich my the looks of things! Ah my dream will have to wait for another year it seems.....

Reality_Check1

dmccormack01 wrote: »

Finally starting to realise the enormity of this loan!
i thought graduate medicine was about increasing doctor numbers, while making it more accessible.....more accessible to the mega rich my the looks of things! Ah my dream will have to wait for another year it seems.....

I agree man its crap! I dont understand why the bank want the loan paid back so quickly if they lengthened the term of repayment then they would make more in interest as well as making the loan more manageable.

Roger_that

I could be wrong on this but if you already have the loan the bank isn't really in the driving seat. At the end of 4 years you have their money and they want it back. It doesn't make sense that they'd make you default without restructuring first. Maybe that's naivety on my part but it just isn't logical... Yeah you'll pay more interest in the long run but you'll have a happier life. They'll get their money back. Everyone wins.

Joe2011

That may be the case for those who already have the loan. I suppose in our situation, it makes more sense for them to refuse the loan in the first place, if they are not happy with having a long repayment length.

dmccormack01

its definitely not going to be easy to get one that's for sure!

Roger_that

The real crux of it for the banks is that they're not making any money on the principal for 4 years and I think banks are thinking months rather than years ahead in this climate.

I think it's going to be a few weeks before we see how it'll all play out. The universities have to be in contact with the banks about new facilities. They stand to l

Roger_that

The real crux of it for the banks is that they're not making any money on the principal for 4 years and I think banks are thinking months rather than years ahead in this climate.

I think it's going to be a few weeks before we see how it'll all play out. The universities have to be in contact with the banks about new facilities. They stand to lose a lot if many places go unfilled. The waiting is interminable though...

51533823

Current UL GEM here.

The fees office confirmed to me today that the fees for this coming year remain the same as last year at €13,915. At least this is some good news. Feel free to give them a call to confirm (a quick Google should give you the number). This was a huge relief to me as I really could not afford to pay an extra €2k.

On the point of financial backing, I believe that this was a flawed idea from its conception. The whole point of GEM was to open up medicine to a wider population. The only other courses in Ireland which remotely compare in price of GEM are MBA's and these are usually funded by corporates for their employees. If not, it is usually undertaken by someone who is on a healthy wage already. GEM was designed for recent (and not so recent) graduates who have gained some life experience post-graduation but who cannot be expected to have amassed a fortune sizeable enough to cover the €100k costs of the course and living over four years. Therefore, at its core, GEM requires financial backing. To combat the high expense involved, it is unfortunate that the powers that be sought high street banks to fund it. To do this without a contingency plan seems absurd now but in the days when everyone was a property investor it probably seemed like a fine idea.

Personally, I think that the only way GEM can fulfil its purpose of widening access to a medical education in Ireland is through a government backed financing authority similar to that of the student loans company in the UK. As in the UK, this should automatically pay the fees + provide expenses to those who accept a place on a course with repayments being made through an income tax on a sliding scale depending on what your earnings are. Therefore instead of demanding 75% of an intern's wage on graduation, as is happening now, the majority of the loan is repaid in later years when salaries are higher.

I am unsure if GEM can even survive with the current set up but if it does it will be in stark contrast to its initial purpose, restricting access to those who have an extremely strong financial status/backing.

The3Musketeers

51533823 wrote: »

The fees office confirmed to me today that the fees for this coming year remain the same as last year at €13,915.

I was with Nanorman when he was with the Ulster Bank bank of UL and the lady there was fairly insistent that the fees were rising close to 15,900.... Maybe fees are staying steady for those already in the course but rising for new entrants? Do you have any idea if that may be the case?

51533823

The3Musketeers wrote: »

I was with Nanorman when he was with the Ulster Bank bank of UL and the lady there was fairly insistent that the fees were rising close to 15,900.... Maybe fees are staying steady for those already in the course but rising for new entrants? Do you have any idea if that may be the case?

I double checked with her* that it was definitely for the coming year and she said yes. She had a sheet for all of the courses with the fees for the 12/13 year. There has never been a discrepancy between first year fees and other years before and I highly doubt it would start now.

I suggest giving them a call to confirm but I'm confident of those figures for all years.

Joe2011

Has anybody who was talking to any of the other colleges directly, discussed fees with them? It would be interesting to see, as I presume they would all raise their fees together, apart from rcsi who made that leap on their own last year

dmccormack01

51533823 wrote: »

Current UL GEM here.

The fees office confirmed to me today that the fees for this coming year remain the same as last year at €13,915. At least this is some good news. Feel free to give them a call to confirm (a quick Google should give you the number). This was a huge relief to me as I really could not afford to pay an extra €2k.

On the point of financial backing, I believe that this was a flawed idea from its conception. The whole point of GEM was to open up medicine to a wider population. The only other courses in Ireland which remotely compare in price of GEM are MBA's and these are usually funded by corporates for their employees. If not, it is usually undertaken by someone who is on a healthy wage already. GEM was designed for recent (and not so recent) graduates who have gained some life experience post-graduation but who cannot be expected to have amassed a fortune sizeable enough to cover the €100k costs of the course and living over four years. Therefore, at its core, GEM requires financial backing. To combat the high expense involved, it is unfortunate that the powers that be sought high street banks to fund it. To do this without a contingency plan seems absurd now but in the days when everyone was a property investor it probably seemed like a fine idea.

Personally, I think that the only way GEM can fulfil its purpose of widening access to a medical education in Ireland is through a government backed financing authority similar to that of the student loans company in the UK. As in the UK, this should automatically pay the fees + provide expenses to those who accept a place on a course with repayments being made through an income tax on a sliding scale depending on what your earnings are. Therefore instead of demanding 75% of an intern's wage on graduation, as is happening now, the majority of the loan is repaid in later years when salaries are higher.

I am unsure if GEM can even survive with the current set up but if it does it will be in stark contrast to its initial purpose, restricting access to those who have an extremely strong financial status/backing.

you are spot on, it cant go on in its current form. A similar system to the student loans company would be ideal...but GEM in ireland seems to have been established with as much foresight as everything else in this country!

The3Musketeers

51533823 wrote: »

I double checked with her* that it was definitely for the coming year and she said yes. She had a sheet for all of the courses with the fees for the 12/13 year. There has never been a discrepancy between first year fees and other years before and I highly doubt it would start now.

I suggest giving them a call to confirm but I'm confident of those figures for all years.

Huh, Nanorman and I went on a "Trip to the West" to ask, guess we asked the wrong people! :P It was Ulster Bank we talked to about the fees, she seemed so sure! Well this is good news haha, thanks for checking