Graduate medicine Loans

Tazzle

Joe2011 wrote: »

Has anybody who was talking to any of the other colleges directly, discussed fees with them? It would be interesting to see, as I presume they would all raise their fees together, apart from rcsi who made that leap on their own last year

See below.

UCC wrote:

"...the School of Medicine at UCC will , unfortunately, have to increase the amount of the fee charged to graduate entry students for 2012/3 to €14,580. Collectively, the Medical Schools have expressed concern to, and sought to engage with the HEA regarding the effects of recurrent decreases in state funding...."

Joe2011

Thanks for posting that. At least that sort of increase is not quite as steep as some of the others mentioned. I can only imagine the same applies to UCD then, as they would receive the same sort of funding

zaihast

Palo Alto wrote: »

Really worried by this; got a mark in GAMSAT that luckily lets me choose between the colleges but without a loan of the magnitude of the AIB one, it'll be impossible for me to afford. (would be moving down from the north)

Got a reply back from RCSI saying they have meetings scheduled with BoI/Ulsterbank and are also reaching out to other UK banks and they will update the website accordingly with any updates. I would be shocked if one of the other banks with a better balance sheet than AIB wouldn't fill the void but after all the hassle and work I put in to GAMSAT the last 6 months (including leaving my job) I really could do without this additional worry!

Any updates/news on the other colleges appreciated, hard to know whether I should change the order of preference if more likely to get a loan for another course but it all seems up in the air.

As a non-Irish EU applicant, I'm pinning my slender hopes on this, what was the email (or name of the person) from which RCSI responded? They haven't done so for me incidentally.

If they are meeting with banks, they must be aware about the situation for us and the impact of not providing a viable replacement for the AIB loan will mean in terms of how many people take up these places. The Irish students should be ok as they have the BOI route that still offers 100 grand as a loan option (albeit with a few other things like guarantors etc) but the rest of us have absolutely no mechanism whatsoever

Palo Alto

zaihast wrote: »

As a non-Irish EU applicant, I'm pinning my slender hopes on this, what was the email (or name of the person) from which RCSI responded? They haven't done so for me incidentally.

If they are meeting with banks, they must be aware about the situation for us and the impact of not providing a viable replacement for the AIB loan will mean in terms of how many people take up these places. The Irish students should be ok as they have the BOI route that still offers 100 grand as a loan option (albeit with a few other things like guarantors etc) but the rest of us have absolutely no mechanism whatsoever

Dear Adam,

We received notification from AIB that they intend to discontinue the Graduate Loan system that they had provided to RCSI students since the start of 4 year graduate entry medicine in Ireland. They will continue with their normal student loans and invite all graduate students to apply for these.

We have been in touch with Ulster Bank, BOI and some UK banks to see if we can restore a favourable preferred laon for gradaute stduents along similar lines to the discontinued AIB scheme.

We are expecting to have meetings with Ulster and BOI in the near future and will post notifications if loans can be provided through these or any other banks.

AIB's decision to discontinue the loans is a result of them reviwing their entire loan book in light of the very different environment in which they find their business.

It is important to RCSI that affordable funding is available to stduents and we will do all in out power to encourage the banks to offer a preferred loan model to Gradaute Students in light of their proven academic performance.

Kind regards

Philip Curtis


Doesn't really provide much info!

I've decided I'm probably going to go to Cork as I would prefer living there but also it would help keep costs down. Will have to turn on the charm to try and get a loan, having not lived in the South the last 10 years.

cliodashe

Hi there,

I have a 2 questions:

1 To current GEM students: do people think its possible to work part-time while doing GEM? I did 5 years of Dentistry [really demanding hours] and managed to work [practically] every weekend to cover living expenses [bar rent]. Doing dentistry, our hours were 8:30-5ish every day seeing patients in Clinics or doing PBL [sometime lectures instead of lunch]. I'm really hoping to be able to wangle a part-time job as a dentist while studying GEM to cover living expenses. Is this possible with the work load considering what I could manage during my undergrad? Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

2 To anyone who might know: I'm currently living in Oz. I'll be here two years in Feb 2013. If I don't get in this year [very dodgy sitting on a 54] I believe I cant stay here past Feb 2013, as once I hit the 2 year mark of being a non-resident of Ireland, I wont qualify for EU fees. I would love to stay here another year if I don't get in this year [huge scope to safe tuition] but the 2 year thing is an issue. Does anyone have info/links I could chase up/experience of this?
Again any info or input would be great as need to weigh up all my options.
Thanks

just-joe

Cliodashe - I am in a similar situation, living in Japan. I have been here for almost two, and when I was deciding whether to stay for another one I emailed the colleges about EU fees. (I ended up staying so I'll be out of Ireland for 3 years).

They mostly emailed with blunt answers quoting the rules stated on the website. UCD and RCSI said you have to live in an EU state for 3 of the 5 years before starting a course. The UL med school said they thought it was ok but to check with the fees office, did that and they said the same 3/5 thing.

UCC asked me where I had got my secondary/ third level education and I said everything in Ireland, and they said I was entitled to EU fees under the category of "returning emigrant".

SO going by that UCC would be the only place that takes me. But I'd like to know how they check where you have been living, whether they check at all, and whether they could just disregard the rule because we actually are returning students not vaguely irish people trying to get free education. It's gonna cost a ridiculous amount anyway!

cliodashe

Thanks for your reply Just Joe,
I've had the same feedback, through e mail. No body will stick their neck out and give you anything other than that rule. I'm surprised UCC did. I got quoted the 2 out of 5 year rule too. In relation to revenue you are deemed a resident if you have lived in Ireland for 2 out of 5 so its obviously a fine line as to the definition of 'resident'. I cant help but wonder are there loop holes but it seems too big a risk for me. Have you applied this year? Are you confident enough to leave it another year? I might look into this "returning emigrant" thing but I'd be cautious about trusting someones hunch in UCC. I read a story about some body being away for 2/3 years [cant remember exactly] but apparently the HEA wouldn't budge on it. Not sure how accurate that info is though...think it was the journal.ie...

51533823

cliodashe wrote: »

Thanks for your reply Just Joe,
I've had the same feedback, through e mail. No body will stick their neck out and give you anything other than that rule. I'm surprised UCC did. I got quoted the 2 out of 5 year rule too. In relation to revenue you are deemed a resident if you have lived in Ireland for 2 out of 5 so its obviously a fine line as to the definition of 'resident'. I cant help but wonder are there loop holes but it seems too big a risk for me. Have you applied this year? Are you confident enough to leave it another year? I might look into this "returning emigrant" thing but I'd be cautious about trusting someones hunch in UCC. I read a story about some body being away for 2/3 years [cant remember exactly] but apparently the HEA wouldn't budge on it. Not sure how accurate that info is though...think it was the journal.ie...

I don't think they checked this with anyone in my class. If you enter the program via the CAO and have an Irish passport then there's no way for them to really check (apart from asking you straight up) or prove that you've been out of the country. For all they know you could have been at home with mammy all those years!

I'd say tick the box in the application form and then stay quiet after that. You r extra effort at honesty could mean you end up paying €38k a year! Not the most honest way to go about it but I personally think its a stupid rule, especially considering the necessity to emigrate these days!

51533823

cliodashe wrote: »

Hi there,

I have a 2 questions:

1 To current GEM students: do people think its possible to work part-time while doing GEM? I did 5 years of Dentistry [really demanding hours] and managed to work [practically] every weekend to cover living expenses [bar rent]. Doing dentistry, our hours were 8:30-5ish every day seeing patients in Clinics or doing PBL [sometime lectures instead of lunch]. I'm really hoping to be able to wangle a part-time job as a dentist while studying GEM to cover living expenses. Is this possible with the work load considering what I could manage during my undergrad? Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

2 To anyone who might know: I'm currently living in Oz. I'll be here two years in Feb 2013. If I don't get in this year [very dodgy sitting on a 54] I believe I cant stay here past Feb 2013, as once I hit the 2 year mark of being a non-resident of Ireland, I wont qualify for EU fees. I would love to stay here another year if I don't get in this year [huge scope to safe tuition] but the 2 year thing is an issue. Does anyone have info/links I could chase up/experience of this?
Again any info or input would be great as need to weigh up all my options.
Thanks

With a degree in dentistry I think you should be well prepared for GEM and it may be possible to work. Along with pharmacists, you guys are in a good position and should have a head start on a lot of the basic sciences in first year.

Saying that, I wouldn't advise it to the majority of applicants. People talk about science vs non-science but in my opinion only a few science degrees give you an advantage such as pharm, dentistry, physiology and pharmacology. It may be possible to work in this situation depending on your work ethic. In your case, if you managed to do it in your first degree and get your 2.1 then it sounds like you might be able to manage it again in GEM.

Your basic science degree in microbio or biochem, engineering don't really give much of an advantage in the overall scheme of things. These people, along with the non-science students, would find it very difficult to fit in 10/15 hours of paid work per week IMHO.

ciara84

cliodashe wrote: »

Hi there,

I have a 2 questions:

1 To current GEM students: do people think its possible to work part-time while doing GEM? I did 5 years of Dentistry [really demanding hours] and managed to work [practically] every weekend to cover living expenses [bar rent]. Doing dentistry, our hours were 8:30-5ish every day seeing patients in Clinics or doing PBL [sometime lectures instead of lunch]. I'm really hoping to be able to wangle a part-time job as a dentist while studying GEM to cover living expenses. Is this possible with the work load considering what I could manage during my undergrad? Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

2 To anyone who might know: I'm currently living in Oz. I'll be here two years in Feb 2013. If I don't get in this year [very dodgy sitting on a 54] I believe I cant stay here past Feb 2013, as once I hit the 2 year mark of being a non-resident of Ireland, I wont qualify for EU fees. I would love to stay here another year if I don't get in this year [huge scope to safe tuition] but the 2 year thing is an issue. Does anyone have info/links I could chase up/experience of this?
Again any info or input would be great as need to weigh up all my options.
Thanks

you can just apply to trinity med and do the final 2 years of undergraduate medicine (or something like that) and get exemptions from the first 3 years, or most of the first 3 years, rather than do 4 years of graduate entry medicine, just food for thought.

kingofkong

loads of gems work part time!

cliodashe

Thanks ciara84,
I've looked into it and chatted to the consultant Max-Fac surgeon in James's. I have to have done my MFD exams, a year in a SHO position in a hospital, published, and in general shown my face a lot! I went straight into private practice after qualifying so realistically it would take me two years to get to the position where I could be considered for it. I'd also be flat broke at the end of all that. The GAMSAT was a last minute gamble. I'd much prefer to spend 4 years doing GEM than slogging to get into an accelerated 2.5 year course [talk of increasing it to 3 years now] overall that will take 4.5-5 years and to be honest I think I'd be a better doc at the end of GEM vs accelerated course. Wish I had realised all this earlier but I was in denial about wanting to go back and do GEM for a long time and I wasn't prepared to sit the MFD exams unless I was sure I was gonna specialise [within dentistry and actually utilise them...hind sight and all that jazz!!

cliodashe

kingofkong wrote: »

loads of gems work part time!

Thanks, was getting a bit worried with all this loan talk, no one seemed to mention part-time work to reduce the loan accumulation and the one person I know doing GEM doesn't work part-time and finds the work load tough going. Just wanted to get an idea if its realistic or not as I might find getting a loan difficult after coming back from Oz [judging from the theme of the thread]. Good to know there are some.
Thanks!

just-joe

51533823 wrote: »

I don't think they checked this with anyone in my class. If you enter the program via the CAO and have an Irish passport then there's no way for them to really check (apart from asking you straight up) or prove that you've been out of the country. For all they know you could have been at home with mammy all those years! I'd say tick the box in the application form and then stay quiet after that. You r extra effort at honesty could mean you end up paying €38k a year! Not the most honest way to go about it but I personally think its a stupid rule, especially considering the necessity to emigrate these days!

Yeah, hopefully this is the case!


It would be kinda crap if they pulled me up on it though, and said "hey weren't you the guy who emailed us about living away?!" etc etc but hopefully they just don't check. Although that is a big risk to take, and probably not a clever one.


Either way I will be gone for a third year, so I haven't applied for this year. I was thinking about studying and sitting the gamsat this year while I am away, then starting in 2013 or maybe even 2014 which is very long term planning.

It's a silly bridge between saving for doing med but then actually not being able to cos of a change in fees. But now that all this AIB stuff is happening its thrown another problem into the picture. I've begun to wonder a bit if GEM will even exit by 2014?!

EngDoc

Ok...probably being super-naive here, but would it be an idea to shoot off a petition or something like that to the minister for health? Considering the number of grad med student places and the size of the HSE budget, they could increase their support by a few grand without making much difference in the grand scale of things.

Pity they couldn't make the Back to Education Allowance available to to grad med students. That would sure take some of the weight off. The reality of having such huge debt at the end of four years is really making me rethink the whole idea of studying med...

EngDoc

Right, for all the good it will do, I sent a mail off to Dr. James Reilly, Ms Roisin Shortall and the Irish Medical Organisation regarding the high cost of fees etc.

Nothing to lose I suppose...

DeadEight

The Fottrell report (which is the reason we have Graduate Entry Medicine in Ireland) anticipated that GEM students would have to pay in the region of €12,000 in fees a year. However, it was not expected that they would be excluded from all other forms of Government assistance made available to other undergraduate students.

it is important that prospective applicants are not discouraged because of socio-economic factors and therefore may require some level of funding support. Additionally, the Government provides certain funding for existing postgraduate courses, and this is likely to apply to the graduate intake to medicine also.

Both the Back to Education Allowance and the Student Grant have a requirement for "progression", and this is what excludes us from these funding programs.

The BTEA is administered by the Department of Social Protection, and the Student Grant comes under the Department of Education and Skills. Both of these Ministers were strong supporters of the Fottrell report, and when in opposition they both called for its full implementation. Given the current situation with regard to sources of funding for Graduate Medicine in Ireland, we could well see the Graduate Medical programs full of their non-EU students only.

As EngDoc says, the cost of extending these schemes to GEM students would be very small. I recommend we all write to our local TDs, and to the Ministers concerned asking that they grant an exemption to the progression requirement for applicants to Graduate Entry Medicine.

Reality_Check1

EngDoc wrote: »

Ok...probably being super-naive here, but would it be an idea to shoot off a petition or something like that to the minister for health? Considering the number of grad med student places and the size of the HSE budget, they could increase their support by a few grand without making much difference in the grand scale of things.

Pity they couldn't make the Back to Education Allowance available to to grad med students. That would sure take some of the weight off. The reality of having such huge debt at the end of four years is really making me rethink the whole idea of studying med...

you would probably have a better chance of success if you lobbied the junior minister (im not sure who that is). I tries to send letters to ministers before and its very hard to get a response.

EngDoc

DeadEight wrote: »

Both the Back to Education Allowance and the Student Grant have a requirement for "progression", and this is what excludes us from these funding programs.

As EngDoc says, the cost of extending these schemes to GEM students would be very small. I recommend we all write to our local TDs, and to the Ministers concerned asking that they grant an exemption to the progression requirement for applicants to Graduate Entry Medicine.

"The approved full-time education course must lead to a higher qualification on the National Framework of Qualifications other than that already held. It is not considered that existing graduates should have an entitlement to BTEA to pursue a course at a similar qualification level as, inter alia, this can lead to displacement of persons seeking such qualifications for the first time."

This concern isn't valid for grad med. Since we need a primary degree before we can even sit the GAMSAT, there's no risk of displacing any other students. I sent a mail about this yesterday to the dept of Social Protection. They're not known for getting back to people briskly though...

ericm84

cliodashe wrote: »

Thanks, was getting a bit worried with all this loan talk, no one seemed to mention part-time work to reduce the loan accumulation and the one person I know doing GEM doesn't work part-time and finds the work load tough going. Just wanted to get an idea if its realistic or not as I might find getting a loan difficult after coming back from Oz [judging from the theme of the thread]. Good to know there are some.
Thanks!

I'd imagine with a dental degree you would be very well prepared for GEM. If you did the accelerated course in Trinity you get to skip the first 2 years of med based on the previous study of biochem/pharma/anatomy etc you do in dentistry.

Given that and the fact the 1st GEM is supposed to cram the first 2 years of a med degree into 1 I'd say a lot of the material would be quite familar to you. Thus, you shouldn't be under as much pressure as say an arts graduate....and should have plenty of time to work weekends. I know a couple of dentists in 3rd/4th/5th year medicine who still have time to work at the weekend

dmccormack01

EngDoc wrote: »

"The approved full-time education course must lead to a higher qualification on the National Framework of Qualifications other than that already held. It is not considered that existing graduates should have an entitlement to BTEA to pursue a course at a similar qualification level as, inter alia, this can lead to displacement of persons seeking such qualifications for the first time."

This concern isn't valid for grad med. Since we need a primary degree before we can even sit the GAMSAT, there's no risk of displacing any other students. I sent a mail about this yesterday to the dept of Social Protection. They're not known for getting back to people briskly though...

excellent point! Surely this could be challenged legally as the premise for them denying the BTEA to us is flawed

dmccormack01

EngDoc wrote: »

Right, for all the good it will do, I sent a mail off to Dr. James Reilly, Ms Roisin Shortall and the Irish Medical Organisation regarding the high cost of fees etc.

Nothing to lose I suppose...

any chance you could post what you sent EngDoc?? im going to send this off to, if we all got behind it who knows! its definitely an issue/area that seems to have been overlooked completely.

foreverandever

dmccormack01 wrote: »

excellent point! Surely this could be challenged legally as the premise for them denying the BTEA to us is flawed

I'm pretty sure BTEA is to encourage people without qualifications or a job to further their education. As anyone who is doing gradmed already has a 2:1 degree in a higher level course I think taking from this fund isn't the way forward.

dmccormack01

foreverandever wrote: »

I'm pretty sure BTEA is to encourage people without qualifications or a job to further their education. As anyone who is doing gradmed already has a 2:1 degree in a higher level course I think taking from this fund isn't the way forward.

yea you are right. It seriously needs to be addressed, i take it we will all be gone through the system by the time anything gets sorted out!

EngDoc

dmccormack01 wrote: »

any chance you could post what you sent EngDoc?? im going to send this off to, if we all got behind it who knows! its definitely an issue/area that seems to have been overlooked completely.

Wasn't anything fancy, basically just made the point I raised earlier. I'm sure it will just be printed out and fed to a dog...but there's no harm in trying!

EngDoc

foreverandever wrote: »

I'm pretty sure BTEA is to encourage people without qualifications or a job to further their education. As anyone who is doing gradmed already has a 2:1 degree in a higher level course I think taking from this fund isn't the way forward.

Well...as we all know, to sit the GAMSAT your degree can be in anything as long as it's level 8 and you got the 2.1. Some degrees are going to be a lot more help than others in finding employment after college.

From the department's point of view, if it's a choice between keeping someone with a degree which hasn't made a job available on support or (if they're lucky enough to be offered a place on grad med) helping them get a degree in med...I think the latter is a good investment.

Again, I'm pretty sure it's not going to go anywhere though. Shame to see so many people put off by the high fees and large debt though.

51533823

The3Musketeers wrote: »

I was with Nanorman when he was with the Ulster Bank bank of UL and the lady there was fairly insistent that the fees were rising close to 15,900.... Maybe fees are staying steady for those already in the course but rising for new entrants? Do you have any idea if that may be the case?

My apologies, I stand corrected.

The UL fees office were, in fact, wrong and an email from the head of our school today states that the fees for the incoming year are €14,915.

Not good news for anyone!

The email states that the HEA have dropped their subsidy of the fees from €13,820 in 09/10 to €10,000 in 12/13. I'd urge those of you who have been talking about sending letters to continue with your good work! This is only going to get worse as we are squeezed from both ends.

51533823

foreverandever wrote: »

I'm pretty sure BTEA is to encourage people without qualifications or a job to further their education. As anyone who is doing gradmed already has a 2:1 degree in a higher level course I think taking from this fund isn't the way forward.

I agree. I think this is the wrong route to take considering that many students come into GEM either directly from a job or from their undergraduate degree. Under its current rules (being unemployed and on the dole for a period of time) the BTEA would only help a tiny proportion of the GEM student population.

Surely it is better to seek out a government backed student loan institution which can directly benefit all future GEMS.

EngDoc

51533823 wrote: »

Surely it is better to seek out a government backed student loan institution which can directly benefit all future GEMS.

Yeah...that's a fair point.

Ideally, the HSE would increase its support to bring the fees in line with other Allied Health degrees. The gov would establish a low interest loan scheme. And the BTEA would be made available to the minority of students to whom it would apply.

I doubt any of this is going to happen though.

"I acknowledge receipt of your email. Your correspondence will be brought to the attention of Dr James Reilly T.D., Minister for Health and to the relevant officials in the Department of Health. If the content of your correspondence relates to the functions of another Minister's department, it will be brought to their attention for direct reply."

EugeneOnegin

I've been watching this for a while. I'm not surprised at the moves HEA have taken. It's unfortunate to say the very least.

Out of interest has anyone approached IMO or another representative organisation? If one were to find an allay in such groups it would certainly strengthen the hand.

It would also seem that current GEMs are neither unfazed by the fee increase (and the possibility of future cuts in coming years) or else too busy/unprepared to do anything.

The undergrads have USI who are up in arms at the prospect of paying an increased registration fee (which is a fraction of what GEMs are expected to).

It would seem we church mice have no one to stand and fight in our corner.
We need an united front!