Graduate medicine Loans

Nonoperational

j.mcdrmd wrote: »

This reminds me of the pressure being put on parents to help out with deposits for houses during the housing bubble. Some people even sold their family home and downsized to facilitate their adult children. Others took out loans they are still repaying.

The banks don't care about anything beyond getting their money back with a healthy interest rate, it is business. I am starting to wonder if the Uni's care about anything other than the money too.

Please, please think before you put pressure on your parents.

Can they afford to pick up the tab if this goes wrong?
What will it mean for their future plans?
Do they have other family or business obligations?

It is one hell of an ask in the current situation. A lot of people have not got a clue how doctors are being treated by the Hse.

Aib have gotten out of this market for a reason, doctors are having trouble paying their loans. This means that most likely you will have too.

A sub prime crowd were on fishing here earlier today. I know that it is disappointing for you but you really must face reality.

Approach this in a different way. Anything but saddle yourselves or families with enormous debts. Money does matter, you need to be solvent.

Bt the way are BoI saying that a BoI current account will be required for the Guarantor?

Well it's perfectly reasonable. Of course they want to get their money back with a healthy rate of interest. It's a lot of money to be taking on.

EngDoc

Ah well...looks like (as expected), there won't be any additional support in the near future. But hey...was worth a shot!


Uimhir:142, 151

Ceist Pharlaiminte

Chun an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíoctha
To the Minister for Education and Science

To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if his attention has been drawn to
the significant impact the increase in fees payable for graduate entry to
medicine and the withdrawal by AIB of the graduate student loan package for
graduate students will have on the viability of graduate entry medicine for
many students; if he is considering any measures to offset these obstacles; and
if he will make a statement on the matter.
- Simon Harris.

To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the complete range of financial
supports available for students entering the graduate medicine programme.
-Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.



* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 10th July, 2012.
Reference Number: 33011/12, 33661/12

Freagra

Minister Ruairí Quinn

I propose to take questions 142 and 151 together.
Higher education institutions are autonomous bodies and the level of tuition
fees charged for their Graduate Entry Medicine (GEM) programmes, is a matter
for the institutions themselves to determine. Accordingly I have no role in the
matter. The prerequisite for entry to GEM programmes is an Upper Second or
First Class Honours Bachelor's degree in any discipline. GEM students therefore
are pursuing a second undergraduate degree and are not eligible for free fees
or for student grants. However in order to widen access the fees of EU students
are partly subsidised by the State through the Higher Education Authority. For
the 2011/12 academic year this subsidy amounted to €11,000 per EU student. In
addition the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provides tax relief, at the standard
rate, for tuition fees paid in respect of approved courses. I appreciate that
for individual students having to meet those fees can be difficult and
therefore it is a matter of regret if the loan package in question has been
withdrawn by the bank.






Uimhir:143

Ceist Pharlaiminte

Chun an Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíoctha
To the Minister for Education and Science

To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the number of students who have
undertaken and are currently undertaking the graduate medicine programme; the
locations at which this course is available; the respective course fees; the
degree to which this programme has achieved its stated purpose; and the way he
will ensure that entry to these courses is not determined by ability to pay..
- Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.



* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 10th July, 2012.
Reference Number: 33663/12

Freagra

Minister Ruairí Quinn

The graduate entry medicine (GEM) programme commenced in 2007/08 and has an
annual EU intake of 240 students in four institutions: UCD (77), UCC (38), UL
(95) and RCSI (30). Information regarding the numbers who have undertaken these
programmes is not readily available. I have asked the Higher Education
Authority to collate this data and it will be forwarded to the deputy when
available.

Each institution is responsible for setting its tuition fees which, in
2011/2012, were as follows: UCD (€13,915), UCC (€13,580), UL (€13,915) and RCSI
(€15,940). The fees of EU students are partly subsidised by the State through
the Higher Education Authority. For 2011/12 this subsidy amounted to €11,000
per EU student.

The establishment of a Graduate Medicine Programme was a specific
recommendation of the Report of the Working Group on Undergraduate Medical
Education and Training (the 'Fottrell Report') published in 2006. The Report
made a number of recommendations in relation to the reform of medical education
and training. It specifically saw the introduction of GEM as a means to
increase the number of EU medicine graduates in the context of an evolving
healthcare system and growing population needs. The first cohort of students
graduated in 2011.



Question No: 288 Ref No: 33662-12

To the Minister for Social Protection
To ask the Minister for Social Protection the reason the back to education allowance is not available to students undertaking the graduate medicine programme in view of the fact that the issue of displacement does not arise; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
- Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.
* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 10th July, 2012.
R E P L Y
Minister for Social Protection (Joan Burton T.D):
The back to education allowance (BTEA) is a second chance education opportunities scheme designed to remove the barriers to participation in second and third level education by enabling those eligible to certain social welfare payments to continue to receive a payment while pursuing an approved full-time education course that leads to a higher qualification than that already held.

A person wishing to pursue BTEA will have to satisfy a number of conditions such as being of a certain age, in receipt of a prescribed social welfare payment for a specified time period, pursuing a full time course of study leading to a recognised qualification in a recognised college and progressing in the level of education held by the client with reference to the national framework of qualifications (NFQ) among others.

The entry requirements of the graduate medicine course to which the Deputy refers require a person to already hold an honours degree in any discipline which is level 8 on the NFQ. As indicated above, a person who already possesses a level 8 qualification is not eligible for the BTEA. State support for education purposes is grounded on a student progressing from one qualification level to a higher one. The progression criteria is essential and applies to all courses of study. The scheme was never intended to be an alternative form of funding for people entering or re-entering the third level education system.

Tazzle

EngDoc wrote: »

Ah well...looks like (as expected), there won't be any additional support in the near future. But hey...was worth a shot!

Minister Ruairí Quinn

I propose to take questions 142 and 151 together.
Higher education institutions are autonomous bodies and the level of tuition
fees charged for their Graduate Entry Medicine (GEM) programmes, is a matter
for the institutions themselves to determine. Accordingly I have no role in the
matter. The prerequisite for entry to GEM programmes is an Upper Second or
First Class Honours Bachelor's degree in any discipline. GEM students therefore
are pursuing a second undergraduate degree and are not eligible for free fees
or for student grants. However in order to widen access the fees of EU students
are partly subsidised by the State through the Higher Education Authority. For
the 2011/12 academic year this subsidy amounted to €11,000 per EU student. In
addition the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provides tax relief, at the standard
rate, for tuition fees paid in respect of approved courses. I appreciate that
for individual students having to meet those fees can be difficult and
therefore it is a matter of regret if the loan package in question has been
withdrawn by the bank.

Subsidy in 2008 was €13,000. I say he has a role in the matter.

jtsuited

Hadn't looked in this thread in a long time. Jesus. Can't believe it. This is a horrible blow for people about to start.

I doubt Ulster Bank or BOI are going to offer anything near that AIB loan package.

I have the RCSI package, and it actually miraculously is somehow enough to live on while doing graduate medicine (but seriously just about).

lonelywanderer

More bad news but thought I'd post it here anyway.

I have been in contact with the branch manager of AIB UCD asking her to urge reconsideration on the withdrawal of the loans.

I wrote her a lengthy email about the implications and potential consequences of their withdrawing the loans. Her response was as follows:

Good morning,

I acknowledge receipt of your email received last Thursday and can understand your disappointment and the frustration evident in your communication.

As you point out this is not a decision made at branch level and as you request I have forwarded your email to the relevant area in the centre.

I will revert with any feedback I get in response to your comments Andrew.

Regards.

Maeve

And then:

Good afternoon Andrew

I have received confirmation from the respective area that an extensive and comprehensive review of the Graduate Medical Loan Scheme was undertaken after which this decision to close to new entrants was made. Existing participants will continue to be facilitated but there is no change to the original decision.

I'm really sorry not to be able to bring you a more positive response as I can appreciate your own position and indeed that of others in a similar situation.
I do wish you the very best with your studies and thank you for taking the time to communicate with me.

Regards

Maeve

Pretty much what I expected

kingofkong

I know a lot of you must be pissed off but don't fixate on AIB

just apply to UB and BOI and get on with it:)

EngDoc

kingofkong wrote: »

I know a lot of you must be pissed off but don't fixate on AIB

just apply to UB and BOI and get on with it:)

I've been with AIB since I started college. I wonder if they take into account how long you've been with them? If you have a good credit history, maybe they'd give you a personal loan with a decent rate.

I could probably pay my way through the first year. Hoping that I could get some well-paid work during the summer months. Not much point though if I approach a bank in second year and they tell me to get lost.

Might as well wait until offers are out I suppose...don't want to jump the gun.

51533823

EngDoc wrote: »

I've been with AIB since I started college. I wonder if they take into account how long you've been with them? If you have a good credit history, maybe they'd give you a personal loan with a decent rate.

I could probably pay my way through the first year. Hoping that I could get some well-paid work during the summer months. Not much point though if I approach a bank in second year and they tell me to get lost.

Might as well wait until offers are out I suppose...don't want to jump the gun.

I'd say get a loan from day one if possible, especially with the uncertainty surrounding all this (there may be no loans in a few years time). You don't have to draw down on it but at least the agreement will be in place should you require it at any stage.

kingofkong

heybert wrote: »

That's the way I looked at it too. I think for €20 pm AIB was covering you for €360k and I can't remember the term, making you most valuable in a coffin - to your family at least.

I don't remember what the story was with 123.ie but its easy to get an up to date quote with them.

€20 is what the bank offer you for life cover, it's a rip off and doesn't include sick cover

if you shop around you can get the minimum life cover (100K) plus sick cover of 100K for about €10 a month

chanste

Ok I know there is a GEMS forum and if someone wants to move this thread that is of course ok, but I'm posting it here in the main forum because I'm bringing it up from the point of view of the effect it will have on Irish medicine in general as opposed to the people who are applying to GEMS.

Anyway my point is, that if I weren't given this loan...
http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2012/07/bank-abandons-gems-student-loan-scheme.html
I could never have gained entry to my course and I'm sure many others would be in the same boat. Now if the bank removes these loans, I fear that a lot of the people who want to get into the course and do in fact get offered places based on merit won't be able to take them, but lesser qualified people with larger pockets will be able to take these places.

I pointed out before in these forums that I believed that worrying about the quality of applicant (somewhere among the people giving out about ULs 54 point GAMSAT score last year) is almost unnecessary given how difficult the actual course is to get through, but I would not like to see wealth gain the upper hand against academic merit, and as long as the loans were in place it at least kept everyone who was willing to work in the race. Also I would not wish it on anyone to get into the course and then have to keep repeating things.

Thoughts?

jtsuited

i fully agree. the even playing pitch of gamsat was a positive thing in a societal context. although many may argue that it was an uneven playing pitch because of people doing prep courses, I thoroughly disagree as none of the gamsat blitzers i know a)did a prep course and b) did it more than once.

I was flat broke doing the gamsat and arrived to RCSI on the first day of semester one with my bus fare home in my pocket. It was literally the last bit of money I had to my name. The countdown to that AIB loan money coming through was a tough few Koka noodle filled weeks.

If these loans aren't offered, or can't be offered, then I'd rather graduate medicine be scrapped altogether.
In reality, I think a large part of starting the graduate medicine programme was essentially a clever way of allowing Irish medical schools to enter the North American medical school market. The non-EU students pay serious money straight to the colleges. It's a lucrative business when you break down the numbers. And the graduate medicine end of things for Irish students allowed the colleges to make serious money.

There's nothing wrong with that per se, but if the graduate entry medicine system for Irish people merely becomes a question of 'who's got 100k to become a doctor?', the quality of doctors will drastically drop and furthermore the 'status' of doctors being the best and brightest will be ruined.

51533823

jtsuited wrote: »

i fully agree. the even playing pitch of gamsat was a positive thing in a societal context. although many may argue that it was an uneven playing pitch because of people doing prep courses, I thoroughly disagree as none of the gamsat blitzers i know a)did a prep course and b) did it more than once.

I was flat broke doing the gamsat and arrived to RCSI on the first day of semester one with my bus fare home in my pocket. It was literally the last bit of money I had to my name. The countdown to that AIB loan money coming through was a tough few Koka noodle filled weeks.

If these loans aren't offered, or can't be offered, then I'd rather graduate medicine be scrapped altogether.
In reality, I think a large part of starting the graduate medicine programme was essentially a clever way of allowing Irish medical schools to enter the North American medical school market. The non-EU students pay serious money straight to the colleges. It's a lucrative business when you break down the numbers. And the graduate medicine end of things for Irish students allowed the colleges to make serious money.

There's nothing wrong with that per se, but if the graduate entry medicine system for Irish people merely becomes a question of 'who's got 100k to become a doctor?', the quality of doctors will drastically drop and furthermore the 'status' of doctors being the best and brightest will be ruined.

Same here. Came to UL last year penniless and without the AIB loan there is now way I could have done the course. In fact, coming from a non-science background, I couldn't have worked part-time so I couldn't even have done the course on Ulster Bank's offering of €15k

dmccormack01

so does ulster bank only offer enough to cover fees now?

Abby19

In case this is of use to anyone. For the Bank of Ireland Grad Med loans the relevant contact details of the branches linked to the various colleges are below.

I know offers aren't out yet, but in case this helps anyone. And if just making enquiries, these people should have the details to hand.

UCD - Carmel Blennerhassett - 01-2611352
UCC - Vivienne Cremin - 07662 42553
UL - Kelly Chamney - 07662 40824
RCSI (Stephens Green Branch, Brian) - 07662 31358

pollypigwash

I noticed in the other thread comments re: fees and fees increases but it's probably more appropriate to respond here

McMuffin wrote: »

No fee increases are not for everyone

Fee increases are for everyone on the course regardless of what year you are in. In UCD the fee increases year on year are due to a reduction in funding from the HEA year on year. The actual course fee has remained the same according to the dean. Students in the year ahead of me confirmed this last year in September as they had paid €800 less than us in 2010/2011. Our fees have gone up by €1000 I think this year.

The whole situation with loans etc is a bit of a shambles and puts people in a really tight spot. If you want to do it and think you can manage for first year financially I'd do it and you'll be fine. In UCD there is an option to act as a campus supervisor for a few hours a week and a couple of nights on call a month giving out to young scamps (or taking a few quid to let the party roll whatever is your thing) and you get free rent and bills. I was too late to apply for this year as I hadn't heard about it but its something to consider for second year.

You can also work your balls off during the summer to get some money together. I have four months off at the minute (end of GEM1) and I'm making good use of it.

Getting back to the fees situation my biggest gripe and something that hasn't been addressed by the minister is the current situation where in UCD the Undergraduate entry and Graduate entry programs are combined for their final two clinical years. At which point the GEMs are expected to pay €15,000 in fees but Undergraduates are still entitled to full grant support or the usual €2,000 or whatever it costs. The reason this pisses me off is at that stage both sets of students will have completed 4 years of an undergraudate program which could have been funded (only 3 if you did arts or commerce) Why then amn't I entitled to receive a 5th and 6th year funded if someone else is?

Another problem I have this situation is that had I failed my engineering degree in my final year and subsequently started again on the undergraduate program I would have had the whole undergraduate program paid for on grants and have been able to receive back to education allowance. But because I did well that option isn't open to me and I've taken the graduate entry route and I pay the subsequent cost. Strange stuff.

That all said going back to do GEM is the best decision I ever made, I'll be paying for it for years but so what, I'd rather do that than stick out a job I hate. So don't be completely put off

McMuffin

My apologies, UCD must have updated their fee page recently because last week there was a difference between the stage 1&2 and the Stage 3&4 fees.

Biologic

Another thing that gets me regarding GEM fees is that we have to pay the student contribution. Not only is it adding 2000 to a very hefty fee bill, but it's aggravating having someone put a charge on there which suggests you don't already contribute to your fees. It's like they just overlooked the fact that some people pay fees and now we're paying for their laziness/ignorance.

EngDoc

Biologic wrote: »

Another thing that gets me regarding GEM fees is that we have to pay the student contribution. Not only is it adding 2000 to a very hefty fee bill, but it's aggravating having someone put a charge on there which suggests you don't already contribute to your fees. It's like they just overlooked the fact that some people pay fees and now we're paying for their laziness/ignorance.

Ok...just so I'm sure here. The fees for UCD this year are about €15K a year. That includes the student contribution, right??

McMuffin

No they actually haven't been finalised for this year. https://myucd.ucd.ie/admission/med_graduate.ezc - they were 13,915 last year.

Chiam

Hi all

I am a graduate from the Republic of Ireland who has been accepted to study medicine at Queen's Belfast in September. I am hoping to fund my 5 years by myself (through loans/working etc). I estimate that I will need approx €70000 to get me through the 5 years. However, I appear to fall through the cracks of many of the "normal" funding options i.e GEM loan, student loan companies etc.
Does anybody have any advice on what banks/funding agencies to approach?

foreverandever

pollypigwash wrote: »

Getting back to the fees situation my biggest gripe and something that hasn't been addressed by the minister is the current situation where in UCD the Undergraduate entry and Graduate entry programs are combined for their final two clinical years. At which point the GEMs are expected to pay €15,000 in fees but Undergraduates are still entitled to full grant support or the usual €2,000 or whatever it costs. The reason this pisses me off is at that stage both sets of students will have completed 4 years of an undergraudate program which could have been funded (only 3 if you did arts or commerce) Why then amn't I entitled to receive a 5th and 6th year funded if someone else is?

After 3-4 years of your undergrad you have a degree at the end of it. After 3-4 years of undergrad med you still have no degree.

IMightKnow

In case this helps anyone, if you do a 3 year degree and then start a new degree you are entitled to not pay for 4th year of the second degree.

It was my brother who availed of this, not me, and it wasn't medicine so I don't have any of the details, I just know that he was told this by the fees office, then they tried to charge him, but then allowed him pay only the 2224.

pollypigwash

foreverandever wrote: »

After 3-4 years of your undergrad you have a degree at the end of it. After 3-4 years of undergrad med you still have no degree.

If you finish after four years of a med degree you get a science degree. That was always the case in Galway anyway. Therefore what's the difference?

If I did a year of an arts/engineering etc and then decide to switch and decide its not for me and start over (before reaching the age of 23 and the additional back to education supports that are available) I would have to pay for my first year or however many years I completed originally after which point I am entitled to full fees and a grant after that.... what's the difference?

I understand what you are saying about having a degree but not all degrees are equal. A lot of people have to go to college again to supplement their education. None of my mates with an Arts or Commerce Degree would dream of stopping at just that. The majority of people with other degrees have gone on to pursue Masters or PhD's or further training.

In my case working in Ireland is not possible because my degree is construction related, therefore I need to reskill in order to be able to work here.

All I'm saying is that GEM seems to be caught in particularly narrow gap where there are very limited supports and it will cause some exclusion.

If it continues in the current frame, GEM will only be the preserve of those from well backed up families who live a commutable distance away from colleges. I couldn't manage without the loan from AIB that's for sure. I have the full €25,000 out.

McMuffin wrote: »

No they actually haven't been finalised for this year. https://myucd.ucd.ie/admission/med_graduate.ezc - they were 13,915 last year.

This years fees have been confirmed for a few weeks see below. The info on that page above barely ever changes.

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/undergraduate2012.html

foreverandever

I'm pretty sure they got rid of that bachelor of medical sciences degree in medicine now. I think you're forgetting you already received one relatively free degree. Now you choosing to retrain and should have to pay for this priviledge. I'll admit it's expensive but no more so than if you trained abroad. And if you take the case of a dentist who decides to go back and do med, the goverment has already funded one degree which they won't use, why should they give towards another? Especially when they've no guarantee all these graduate meds will stay in the country in the future too.

lelouchan

Just back from a meeting with BOI at Montrose and she confirmed the loan would be set at 54000. Nothing more. What a slap on the face. What she also said was that she couldn't confirm the same for rcsi with their increased fees so maybe they'll get some more. Fair play to rcsi for negotiating with the banks themselves, pity ucd can't do the same. I'm just gonna go home and sit as I stare numbly out the window.

Jammyc

lelouchan wrote: »

Just back from a meeting with BOI at Montrose and she confirmed the loan would be set at 54000. Nothing more. What a slap on the face. What she also said was that she couldn't confirm the same for rcsi with their increased fees so maybe they'll get some more. Fair play to rcsi for negotiating with the banks themselves, pity ucd can't do the same. I'm just gonna go home and sit as I stare numbly out the window.

Thanks for the info. Was there any mention of a requirement for a guarantor today?

lelouchan

Yup a guarantor is needed. It's all case by case she said.

j.mcdrmd

lelouchan wrote: »

Yup a guarantee is needed. It's all case by case she said.

Why don't you cut out the middle man?

Get the loan from the guarantor, figure out terms between you and you will have saved the banks cut.

The point about the AIB loans was that no guarantor was required. They have withdrawn the loans because those ahead of you were not able to keep to the terms.

Having to disappoint a bank is one thing, having to disappoint a guarantor is quite another.

Have a look at the main thread on Health Sciences.

cliona88

j.mcdrmd wrote: »

Why don't you cut out the middle man?

Get the loan from the guarantor, figure out terms between you and you will have saved the banks cut.

The point about the AIB loans was that no guarantor was required. They have withdrawn the loans because those ahead of you were not able to keep to the terms.

Having to disappoint a bank is one thing, having to disappoint a guarantor is quite another.

Have a look at the main thread on Health Sciences.

That would be ideal to get a loan from the guarantor. i don't think most parents have got 70-80k in savings to hand out however.

j.mcdrmd

cliona88 wrote: »

That would be ideal to get a loan from the guarantor. i don't think most parents have got 70-80k in savings to hand out however.

The problem is that if the guarantor has not got the money they cannot afford to go guarantor. It is too much of a risk.

AIB trusted the system and didn't ask for a guarantor. The system has failed.

Believe me I am not happy about this either from a variety of points of view.

By the way I meant look at the main FORUM for Health Sciences.