Graduate medicine Loans

nerrad01

pc11 wrote: »

I don't think so. It would be so helpful to spread it out, but I think that it is only within a particular year is all that's allowed.

you can claim, the figures are all broken down in this thread somewhere, think the max it works out at is like 1800 euro, you can get more than one person to claim for you

pc11

nerrad01 wrote: »

you can claim, the figures are all broken down in this thread somewhere, think the max it works out at is like 1800 euro, you can get more than one person to claim for you

Yes, you can claim alright, the question was about whether you could spread it over more than 1 year. The answer to that is a definite no. You can only claim for the given year, that is the fees paid in that tax year against income earned that same year.

Now, as for getting more than 1 person to claim it, I just rang Revenue and they checked for me and said no, that can't be done. So, I would be VERY interested to hear from anyone who managed to do that.

Also, the max. you can get in relief is 1000 per year. (Max of 7000 less deduction of first 2000 at 20% = 1000). Revenue just confirmed that also. So, unless they are wrong, that's it.

The one bit of good news is that you can claim in 5 different tax years, not 4 as the course spans 5 tax years. You would just need to make sure you paid fees in each of those 5 years, i.e. in 2 instalments each college year. So, the max. you could get anyone to claim is 5 x 1000 = 5000 in total.

Now, the really bad news they told me is that if you borrow the fees, then effectively it is the student who is paying the fees, not the family member. So, I was warned that there is a risk they would view it as fraudulent to borrow and pay the fees, but get the family member to claim the tax relief. Perhaps if you could get the college to receipt your parent, even though they didn't pay it, you could do it, but you are taking a risk, clearly.

If there was some way to get the loan, but make it appear the parent is paying the fees, then it might work, but I don't see how - can anyone suggest how?

The Revenue person I spoke to said they had not come across this situation before and advised me strongly to contact Revenue beforehand to discuss the best way to approach this.

The other good news is that if you are working this year until September, then quit to go to college, then you would be due back a good amount of tax after the end of this year as you wouldn't have used up all your tax credits. Similarly, in the year you graduate, when you start work for say 6 months of that year you won't pay much tax in that year as you won't work that whole year.

IEMedAp

Unless your parents are prepared to take out an ordinary commercial loan and pay for you, or have the capital resource to pay for you, there is no way of circumventing the problem you describe. I would be very surprised if the Banks agreed to lend the fee to the parent. You cannot take out the loan and then give it to your parents as the bank ordinarily pays the fee direct to the institution.

pc11

IEMedAp wrote: »

Unless your parents are prepared to take out an ordinary commercial loan and pay for you, or have the capital resource to pay for you, there is no way of circumventing the problem you describe. I would be very surprised if the Banks agreed to lend the fee to the parent. You cannot take out the loan and then give it to your parents as the bank ordinarily pays the fee direct to the institution.

Yeah, I see what you mean. What puzzles me is quite a few people here have talked about doing it, so unless they were mistaken, I'd love to hear how they managed it.

DeadEight

Please read http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it31.html, including the worked examples.

pc11 wrote: »

Yes, you can claim alright, the question was about whether you could spread it over more than 1 year. The answer to that is a definite no. You can only claim for the given year, that is the fees paid in that tax year against income earned that same year.

You can also claim against the tax year during which the academic year of the approved course commenced, which could be the previous year if paying in two payments per year. Make the decision based on when you paid tax to claim against.

pc11 wrote: »

Now, as for getting more than 1 person to claim it, I just rang Revenue and they checked for me and said no, that can't be done. So, I would be VERY interested to hear from anyone who managed to do that.

As first €2,250 of each claim is disregarded for relief, you are worse off having more than one claim in any case.

pc11 wrote: »

Also, the max. you can get in relief is 1000 per year. (Max of 7000 less deduction of first 2000 at 20% = 1000). Revenue just confirmed that also. So, unless they are wrong, that's it.

The worked examples seem to be different here. I'm a bit confused to be honest, as Revenues guidance documents contradict each other.

pc11 wrote: »

The other good news is that if you are working this year until September, then quit to go to college, then you would be due back a good amount of tax after the end of this year as you wouldn't have used up all your tax credits. Similarly, in the year you graduate, when you start work for say 6 months of that year you won't pay much tax in that year as you won't work that whole year.

Keep in mind that to claim the tax relief you must have paid enough tax!

Abby19

pc11 wrote: »

Yeah, I see what you mean. What puzzles me is quite a few people here have talked about doing it, so unless they were mistaken, I'd love to hear how they managed it.

It worked for me - and yes I did ring revenue, explained my situation and they said it was OK. It was in the early years, while I still had paid some tax. And yes I got the increased refund. It may have been tightened up as the wording is a bit clearer now. I should add that I am a mature student, not a GEM and don't have one of the GEM bank loans. Not sure how to get around the bank paying for you. Maybe talk with admissions. Get someone to pay your fees (so they can claim tax back) - then the bank pays them and the college refunds the overpayment? That way you'd have the receipt?

pc11

DeadEight wrote: »

Please read http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it31.html, including the worked examples.


You can also claim against the tax year during which the academic year of the approved course commenced, which could be the previous year if paying in two payments per year. Make the decision based on when you paid tax to claim against.

Right, I think that was clear in what I posted. For the typical case of someone working Jan-Sept and then quitting to go to college full-time for 4 years with no income, presumably claiming in the year in which they start the course will be most effective as that's the only year they will have paid tax. That assumes you pay some tax in the calendar year in which you finish, i.e. pay as much as you can in the January of that year (probably the 2nd instalment of the fees).

Later when I graduate, let's say I start work in June of that year. I will pay some amount of tax that year, and it should be beneficial to claim something in that year also. If I earn nothing in between, no tax relief for me. The only way is if someone else pays, then they can claim relief.

Alternatively, if I can get some work while studying, I get no relief unless I earn enough to pay PAYE. As of now for a single person, I understand I'd need to earn around 16.5K to start paying PAYE.

Frankly, this is a real kicker. I know you have to pay tax to get tax relief, but it really is harsh that not only do you have virtually no income while studying, but you can't get any help. I think there should be a way to spread the cost of studying so as to get more tax relief when we start back working again. We can but dream.

If I was on the dole I would get some money and some benefits, but if I go back to college to build a new career I get nothing. It's perverse IMO.

As first €2,250 of each claim is disregarded for relief, you are worse off having more than one claim in any case.

Isn't it €2,000 not 2,250?

The worked examples seem to be different here. I'm a bit confused to be honest, as Revenues guidance documents contradict each other.

You and me both! Revenue told me last week the 7,000 referred to fees, but the link clearly says 7,000 is the max. relief, which is much better. Looking at the examples on the Revenue site, I think they told me the wrong thing. For 15k in fees, the max relief would be 15000-2000 @ 20% = 2,600 if that is correct.

Also, if correct, it heads off the problem of getting more than one person to claim the relief.

Keep in mind that to claim the tax relief you must have paid enough tax!

Ah here, I know that much!:eek:

There's one more consideration: If you work Jan-September and have paid tax, you will be able to claim back some tax when you quit work to go back to college, as you won't have used all your tax credit for the year.

pc11

Abby19 wrote: »

It worked for me - and yes I did ring revenue, explained my situation and they said it was OK. It was in the early years, while I still had paid some tax. And yes I got the increased refund. It may have been tightened up as the wording is a bit clearer now. I should add that I am a mature student, not a GEM and don't have one of the GEM bank loans. Not sure how to get around the bank paying for you. Maybe talk with admissions. Get someone to pay your fees (so they can claim tax back) - then the bank pays them and the college refunds the overpayment? That way you'd have the receipt?

What worked for you exactly? Did you get 2 different people to claim relief? If you don't have the GEM loans, that's slightly different alright as the money doesn't come straight from the bank with a loan that's explicitly issued to the student.

What you suggest might conceivably work, interesting.

Hypnos

I have an appointment with the woman who is in charge of the loans in UCD on Thursday to see if there is any news or updates since it's changed every year. If anyone has a short question that they might want to know, let me know and I could ask her on Thursday and get back you.... We'll see if it's any easier or more organised this year.

Agnieszka_88

Hypnos wrote: »

I have an appointment with the woman who is in charge of the loans in UCD on Thursday to see if there is any news or updates since it's changed every year. If anyone has a short question that they might want to know, let me know and I could ask her on Thursday and get back you.... We'll see if it's any easier or more organised this year.

Could you ask about loans for EU-citizens? I'm Irish, but also have a German passport, and I've lived in Germany for the last 10 years so I don't have any credit with the Irish banks. I don't think there is any chance of me getting a loan, but it would be great if you could ask (I'll still phone them sometime later, so no worries).

Hypnos

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

Could you ask about loans for EU-citizens? I'm Irish, but also have a German passport, and I've lived in Germany for the last 10 years so I don't have any credit with the Irish banks. I don't think there is any chance of me getting a loan, but it would be great if you could ask (I'll still phone them sometime later, so no worries).

I can answer that immediately. Unfortunately you can't get a loan. The first question I was asked before I even asked to speak to the woman was if I was a permanent resident in Ireland for the past 10 years and that proof such as enrollment to secondary school maybe required. As soon as I said "Could I speak to someone about the GEM loan", the receptionist woman there asked me if I was a permanent resident for the past 10 years. Then since the woman in charge of GEM wasn't there, I was given an appointment. I'll need a documents to show that I attended and finished secondary school and university here (I was advised).

Anything else and I'll be more than happy to ask but weirdly enough they ask you before they even bother talking to you. I'm in UCD so I popped in to try and gather some info.

Agnieszka_88

Hypnos wrote: »

I can answer that immediately. Unfortunately you can't get a loan. The first question I was asked before I even asked to speak to the woman was if I was a permanent resident in Ireland for the past 10 years and that proof such as enrollment to secondary school maybe required. As soon as I said "Could I speak to someone about the GEM loan", the receptionist woman there asked me if I was a permanent resident for the past 10 years. Then since the woman in charge of GEM wasn't there, I was given an appointment. I'll need a documents to show that I attended and finished secondary school and university here (I was advised).

Anything else and I'll be more than happy to ask but weirdly enough they ask you before they even bother talking to you. I'm in UCD so I popped in to try and gather some info.

Thanks, I thought that was the case but it's good to know for sure.
(10 years seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? You can remotely check credit history of an applicant in each and every EU bank, I really don't understand those rules.)

Hypnos

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

Thanks, I thought that was the case but it's good to know for sure.
(10 years seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? You can remotely check credit history of an applicant in each and every EU bank, I really don't understand those rules.)

Yeh you can check credit rating. However you can leave Ireland after gradmed and not pay them back. Sure you would be a fugitive in Ireland but you would not be pursued to pay it back if you're living abroad, and nor would you get arrested in another country for owing money to a bank in Ireland. They're just trying to cover their asses as much as possible. Although it does seem a bit mean, I think it's good to see them taking responsibility after they **** that happened here before the recession. Money was basically thrown at anyone who wanted it.

Agnieszka_88

Hypnos wrote: »

Yeh you can check credit rating. However you can leave Ireland after gradmed and not pay them back. Sure you would be a fugitive in Ireland but you would not be pursued to pay it back if you're living abroad, and nor would you get arrested in another country for owing money to a bank in Ireland. They're just trying to cover their asses as much as possible. Although it does seem a bit mean, I think it's good to see them taking responsibility after they **** that happened here before the recession. Money was basically thrown at anyone who wanted it.

The European Commission is preparing new rules to prevent debtors from hiding in another EU country, but I suppose that the banks won't change how they operate until it turns out that this system actually works.
Well, it's actually common sense, that's how banks are supposed to work, even thought the credit crunch right now is also a bit extreme, just in the other direction. I see a lot of it with my clients at work, they used to be able to get loans for the most stupid investments, but nowadays everything must be checked and approved and they will ask you to provide detailed planning, while before you just showed them some stupid powerpoint and you got your money.

Hypnos

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

The European Commission is preparing new rules to prevent debtors from hiding in another EU country, but I suppose that the banks won't change how they operate until it turns out that this system actually works.
Well, it's actually common sense, that's how banks are supposed to work, even thought the credit crunch right now is also a bit extreme, just in the other direction. I see a lot of it with my clients at work, they used to be able to get loans for the most stupid investments, but nowadays everything must be checked and approved and they will ask you to provide detailed planning, while before you just showed them some stupid powerpoint and you got your money.

Yeh, though the old state of affairs clearly didn't work out. These new ones now have to be tested. It wont work either but uncontrollable lending just can't be sustained and they learned their lesson. Now it just needs to reach an equilibrium. A fair balance.

DeadEight

pc11 wrote: »

Isn't it €2,000 not 2,250?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html#section16

Seems it changed at the last budget.

pc11

DeadEight wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html#section16

Seems it changed at the last budget.

You're right, thanks.

I just talked to Revenue again and despite the guy checking with 2 people and a manager I'm still getting totally varying answers. He even assured me the tax credit was actually only 950 (7,000 - 2,250 at 20%). This totally contradicts their own leaflet example which quotes 2,600 as the relief on fees of 15K. So, I'm pretty sure what I was told here was wrong.

He had initially given me a calculation which came to 1,400 as the figure (7,000 at 20%) so he told me 2 stories. Frankly, this whole situation is ridiculous. He agreed the leaflet is badly written

We had a long discussion about what the word 'relief' means and I left more confused than ever, frankly. It seems to mean the figure you take 20% of to get the actual credit, or it means the actual credit you get, depending on the mood of the person you talk to.

Hypnos

I come with good news (I think :S) I was in contact with the woman in charge of GradMed loans yesterday in BOI at UCD. So the first thing is that the fees have a very high chance of increasing. The full terms won't be released until July for the gradmed loan but she has a fairly good idea of what to expect. She said as the loan won't cover any increase in GradMed fees over the 4 years and that we have to cover the difference ourselves. She roughly estimated that by the time we are finished (4 years) the fees will increase over time and we should be prepared to cover 4,000e difference over the 4 years (worst case scenario). I don't even think it will be that much but who knows I guess. Of course we won't know till July if the grad fees are going up again but she was really confident that they were.


Bad News:

1) There is no way you will even be considered for the loan if;

- You haven't been a permanent resident in Ireland for the past 10 years. (You will be asked for proof)

- If you're in debt or arrears with Bank of Ireland or any other bank for that matter. (Background checks are performed)

- If you* have substantial mortgage payments.

- If you have completed an undergraduate degree anywhere outside the Rep. of Ireland. (This includes the Queens Uni and UK)


Good News:

Last year there were between 60-64 applications for the GradMed loan. 57 were approved (That's what she told me anyways)
That was kind of nice to hear. One was refused based on age and circumstance (Had dependants, i.e kids in his household), one based on his/her age ( I think she said 35+), one with bad credit rating and one who had a mortgage on a house already and a couple for failure to produce a guarantor.

I don't know about you guys but 57 is a good percentage of successful applications.

Now let's see... what else. Oh, they take into account your undergraduate degree (not the result but what you have a degree in). She said some degrees have a lower risk factor and can secure employment more easily if something goes wrong. The criteria people are assessed on is;

Credit history, past loans, current loans, your age, employment (if you graduated before 2013, especially if you don't have a guarantor), your undergrad degree, dependance, marital status and that's all I can remember.

She said if you qualify for application (by meeting the minimum requirements listed above; 10yrs in ireland, no arrears, undergrad in ireland etc) then you have a chance and the reason anyone might fail otherwise if they have a few high risk factors on the other criteria. She said the most useful (non essential) thing you should have is a guarantor. I asked a lot of questions as you might gather.
In the case of no guarantor your employment history will make or break you (full time/part time, job/career, degree etc).

Anyways, hope that was of some use. Apart from the Minimum requirements to be considered you can take the rest with a pinch of salt I guess, because it's down to the underwriters then I suppose.

pc11

Hypnos wrote: »

One was refused based on age and circumstance (Had dependants, i.e kids in his household), one based on his/her age ( I think she said 35+), one with bad credit rating and one who had a mortgage on a house already and a couple for failure to produce a guarantor.

I had a long phone call with I think the same lady (Grace) last week and she was very helpful and knowledgeable. However, she didn't say that age would be a problem! This matters to me as I'm older than the average GEM, So, was someone rejected just for being over 35??! This was not at all said to me. In fact, I was getting that being older with a long employment history, being mature, and long record with BOI would be no harm at all, and might help me to get by without a guarantor. Aside from my age I'm a good risk: no mortgage, no kids, etc, so this is very worrying. Please tell me it wasn't simply being over 35?

Now let's see... what else. Oh, they take into account your undergraduate degree (not the result but what you have a degree in). She said some degrees have a lower risk factor and can secure employment more easily if something goes wrong.

Yes, I got that having a science degree was liked by BOI which is good for me.

Hypnos

pc11 wrote: »

I had a long phone call with I think the same lady (Grace) last week and she was very helpful and knowledgeable. However, she didn't say that age would be a problem! This matters to me as I'm older than the average GEM, So, was someone rejected just for being over 35??! This was not at all said to me. In fact, I was getting that being older with a long employment history, being mature, and long record with BOI would be no harm at all, and might help me to get by without a guarantor. Aside from my age I'm a good risk: no mortgage, no kids, etc, so this is very worrying. Please tell me it wasn't simply being over 35?


Yes, I got that having a science degree was liked by BOI which is good for me.

Yeh age is a factor, but not by itself. Usually the age carries along a mortgage or family with it. I know it can be an issue but you seem to be completely ok. It's not just based on age factors. I highly* doubt it was just because of that. I never asked in detail. I asked her on what basis are they refused, she explained degree, guarantor, age etc... I'll try and paraphrase what she said. I beg your pardon if I don't convey the message accurately: "Usually older candidates can be refused because they tend to have dependants or other financial responsibilities which would make them ineligible candidates for the loan". Now I assume when she told me one of the people got refused who happened to be over 35; he/she also must have had some other risk factors with it; family, mortgage, debt... so I wouldn't know. I didn't ask in detail as to why each candidate got refused but I did ask what are the risk factors.

You honestly sound like a sure candidate there. I wouldn't worry at all. You don't have a single thing to make them question you apart from maybe being a mature student, but you can't get rejected just based on that. But yeh, it seems counter intuitive but being older doesn't seem to help. Probably because there are a lot more financial responsibilities associated with it.

Yeh it was Grace. Relax If you did have kids and a mortgage, and you were over 30 and she said it wouldn't be a problem then she lied to one of us But anyways no, you can't get refused based on age only. Bachelors should be fine. Oh and I was totally getting the impression that applicants just coming out of their undergrad with a guarantor will not have any problems. I was assured after explaining my situation to her that I'd be a prime candidate for the loan coming out of UCD with a chem degree so I don't know. Like I said take everything apart from the minimum requirements for an applicant with a pinch of salt. At the end of the day all we can do is apply and see what happens so no point of being worried anyway if you can't change it. Underwriters decide in the end and she did say it was up to them. But very few rejections and that's a positive sign so relax.

And yeh the degree in Science helps a lot!

shaz84

pc11 - i wouldnt have thought being 35 years of age will make any difference. You'll still have 25 years to repay the loan working in the HSE following the degree, and remember banks offer other types of loans to people of this age group (mortgages) without issue.

pc11

shaz84 wrote: »

pc11 - i wouldnt have thought being 35 years of age will make any difference. You'll still have 25 years to repay the loan working in the HSE following the degree, and remember banks offer other types of loans to people of this age group (mortgages) without issue.

Yes, I checked with BOI on Monday and they said age won't be a factor, though I think they want the money back a good bit quicker than 25 years! 14 years is the term. Actually, at my stage I won't get to 25 years service in the HSE, most likely. Of course, that could be a good thing!

shaz84

That's great news pc11. Hope the loan application goes smoothly.

R.Devaney

Hi, I've been reading the thread and was just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. I'm an Irish citizen (with an irish passport), born in the UK. My guarantor would be also be an Irish citizen (by birth). My secondary school and undergrad degree, however, was in the UK. Does this mean that I couldn't qualify for any GEM loan at any bank in Ireland currently? If not, do you see this likely to change? I only need the minimum loan, to cover tuition, due to being lucky enough to find work after my degree and save. If anyone could help that would be great

Ellymay3

R.Devaney wrote: »

Hi, I've been reading the thread and was just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. I'm an Irish citizen (with an irish passport), born in the UK. My guarantor would be also be an Irish citizen (by birth). My secondary school and undergrad degree, however, was in the UK. Does this mean that I couldn't qualify for any GEM loan at any bank in Ireland currently? If not, do you see this likely to change? I only need the minimum loan, to cover tuition, due to being lucky enough to find work after my degree and save. If anyone could help that would be great

I was in the same situation last year and I couldn't get anyone to help me. The banks didn't want to talk to me until I had an offer. I spoke to BOI and Ulster Bank and they told me there was a residency clause! BOI said I had to have been living in ROI for 10 years before applying and Ulster Bank said it was 3 years. This was so they could run credit checks and that.
I lived up north my whole life like, so it wasn't looking too likely. Then my mum (I know this is a little kid thing to do) called the guy in Ulster Bank, explained the situation, and how I was an Ulster Bank customer up north. I don't know what else she said but he accepted my loan application and said it would be considered with the others. And it was approved.
He couldn't run a credit check on me, and also Ulster Bank in NI is different from the one down here, so he called me and asked me had I a mortgage, credit cards, ever been late with payments etc. The same day he called and said it had been approved.

So, to sum up... get your parents to call!

Hypnos

R.Devaney wrote: »

Hi, I've been reading the thread and was just wondering if anyone could clarify something for me. I'm an Irish citizen (with an irish passport), born in the UK. My guarantor would be also be an Irish citizen (by birth). My secondary school and undergrad degree, however, was in the UK. Does this mean that I couldn't qualify for any GEM loan at any bank in Ireland currently? If not, do you see this likely to change? I only need the minimum loan, to cover tuition, due to being lucky enough to find work after my degree and save. If anyone could help that would be great

Unfortunately you don't qualify. I was asked where I got my degree from and was explained why they asked. This is for Bank of Ireland by the way which covers RCSI and UCD. I don't know about Ulster bank. You have to have a degree from Ireland strictly. Not even northern Ireland is accepted. I don't see it changing for a long time. Not until the country is financially stable again, maybe!?

Agnieszka_88

Hypnos wrote: »

Unfortunately you don't qualify. I was asked where I got my degree from and was explained why they asked. This is for Bank of Ireland by the way which covers RCSI and UCD. I don't know about Ulster bank. You have to have a degree from Ireland strictly. Not even northern Ireland is accepted. I don't see it changing for a long time. Not until the country is financially stable again, maybe!?

It's not really about your degree, just about residency. I don't qualify either, unfortunately, I would suggest you try to get a personal development loan from your bank in the uk, I'm getting one from my bank in Germany for the fees.

Hypnos

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

It's not really about your degree, just about residency. I don't qualify either, unfortunately, I would suggest you try to get a personal development loan from your bank in the uk, I'm getting one from my bank in Germany for the fees.

It is a required stipulation. Your residency is taken into account and you have to* have completed your degree in a HEA funded scheme. Pretty much set in stone for BOI. It's one of their terms. Though residency kind of goes hand in hand with it except in very few exceptional cases.

R.Devaney

You'd wonder then how the course is offered to EU students but without any funding, which makes it impossible for most. This change in banks sounds like a recent thing so they might find a way to work things out for UK students.. one can hope

R.Devaney

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

It's not really about your degree, just about residency. I don't qualify either, unfortunately, I would suggest you try to get a personal development loan from your bank in the uk, I'm getting one from my bank in Germany for the fees.

Does your personal development loan cover the amount required for these fees?