Graduate medicine Loans

imported_guy

del85 wrote: »

60 grand (fees only) loan, borrowed for four years, after which every penny earned in intern year will go towards paying it off. Half the debt should be paid back by the time I get my full registration; the other half will be the equivalent of a car loan.

Nothing unrealistic about that. I want to be a doctor.

thats like comparing china's debt with america's

not everyone is in the same position, not everyone borrows JUST the fees, not everyone would sponge off their spouse/parents for their intern year just so they can pay back the loan.

del85

imported_guy wrote: »

thats like comparing china's debt with america's

not everyone is in the same position, not everyone borrows JUST the fees, not everyone would sponge off their spouse/parents for their intern year just so they can pay back the loan.

That's fair enough.

But my point was that where there's a will, there is a way. For those paying full-whack, a ten year loan integrated into a mortgage would be difficult but not unmanageable. Locum gigs will always be an option too, and if you're flexible enough to travel where the work is you will make a dent in your hundred grand loan.

All I'm saying is that it can be done.

imported_guy

del85 wrote: »

That's fair enough.

But my point was that where there's a will, there is a way. For those paying full-whack, a ten year loan integrated into a mortgage would be difficult but not unmanageable. Locum gigs will always be an option too, and if you're flexible enough to travel where the work is you will make a dent in your hundred grand loan.

All I'm saying is that it can be done.

i've to bring america into this reply yet again :P thats like saying if they devalue their dollar enough it will be like their debt never even exsisted, simply because they controll how much their debt is worth, because all of their debt is in dollars

people want to work to live, not live to work, sure there will be locum gigs, but is it worth giving away your life and working INSANE hours? AKA causing hyper inflation like in zimbabwe :P?

del85

imported_guy wrote: »

i've to bring america into this reply yet again :P thats like saying if they devalue their dollar enough it will be like their debt never even exsisted, simply because they controll how much their debt is worth, because all of their debt is in dollars

Reading that was like section 1 of the GAMSAT all over again

imported_guy wrote: »

people want to work to live, not live to work, sure there will be locum gigs, but is it worth giving away your life and working INSANE hours? AKA causing hyper inflation like in zimbabwe :P?

People should know what they're getting themselves into when they sign on the dotted line.

But if you mitigate your loan with part-time/summer work, live as frugally as possible as an intern (not difficult- we'll be living in the hospital) and locum the sh*te out of yourself for a year or so after registration, then it needn't be the life-and-debt (see what I did there?) scenario which you portray it to be. imo.

imported_guy

del85 wrote: »

Reading that was like section 1 of the GAMSAT all over again



People should know what they're getting themselves into when they sign on the dotted line.

But if you mitigate your loan with part-time/summer work, live as frugally as possible as an intern (not difficult- we'll be living in the hospital) and locum the sh*te out of yourself for a year or so after registration, then it needn't be the life-and-debt (see what I did there?) scenario which you portray it to be. imo.

well everyone KNOWS what they are getting into i'm sure, but they just dont realise the full force of it.... and ofcourse alot of these people want to go to america (here we go again), to train... and over there you earn about 40k-60k depending on where you live (if you live in an expensive city, you earn more, opposite if you live where everything is cheap) on top of that there is usually federal, and then state income tax... and then the dollar is worth half as much as a euro (nearly, its 0.6), so those people are automatically... ehh F'd, AKA if you earn 50k dollars, you're really earning 25k euro... and this is all before taxes.

now i dont know much about australia, its alot more socialized so i guess alot more tax, but i dont know if the AUD is as weak as the USD, and i heard you cant work insane hours in australia to make up for lost earnings (its the same in america usually, ur tied to the residency you work in, unelss ur allowed to "moonlight")

frigate gumption

**** all y'all. i'm getting the full 100k whack and I couldn't give a ****e! it'll be easy as pie to pay it back. negative nancys seem to dwell heavy on these forums. better not to talk to anyone about anything I reckon. do what ya want and as long as your motives are sound you'll land on your little trotters.

heybert

frigate gumption wrote: »

**** all y'all. i'm getting the full 100k whack and I couldn't give a ****e! it'll be easy as pie to pay it back. negative nancys seem to dwell heavy on these forums. better not to talk to anyone about anything I reckon. do what ya want and as long as your motives are sound you'll land on your little trotters.

Positivity is open to ridicule.

Ireland is the only place in the world where, when you're asked how you are, you respond with a weird form of a double negative - "not bad".

Its in our blood.

Sid_Justice

has anyone investigated any realistic defaulting options?

jtsuited

I fully expect the first couple of years to be tough as hell financially. But I'll be a doctor and I'll have a job. End of story.
If it's an unpayable amount, that's the bank's problem, not mine and I'm sure they'll have no problem restructuring a payment plan.

Medicine was never going to be a career where serious sacrifices weren't going to have to be made. And compared to our North American friends, we are getting off light in terms of debt.

However, I do think a lot of people haven't fully comprehended the scale of the prospective debt they're getting themselves into.

dissed doc

jtsuited wrote: »

I fully expect the first couple of years to be tough as hell financially. But I'll be a doctor and I'll have a job. End of story.
If it's an unpayable amount, that's the bank's problem, not mine and I'm sure they'll have no problem restructuring a payment plan.

Medicine was never going to be a career where serious sacrifices weren't going to have to be made. And compared to our North American friends, we are getting off light in terms of debt.

However, I do think a lot of people haven't fully comprehended the scale of the prospective debt they're getting themselves into.

No, if you find it unpayable, it's most definitely YOUR problem. Sacrifices are personal things. Creating a lifetime of debt slavery is not a sacrifice, it's stupidity. €100k is around US$145k. US medical students have this as a ball and chain for a decade, but they have a job market. There is NO job market that will develop in Ireland to pay back these loans. How the hell things deviated so much to compare to the entirely insane US system and not the european systems is beyond me. All the bravado of doing good for society, yet with the lack of jobs and massive debt of America. The best of both worlds. Well, don't say you weren't warned.

Too much american television has diluted your mind from actually understanding whta you said: it's the bank's problem? Why? Because Ireland has a bankruptcy and banking system like America because we are in America? They have defined training programs, with a set end point an totally stability of employment until you finish. You will never, ever, ever, ever get this system in Ireland.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You are an income stream for bankrupt Irish banks, that are struggling to develop income streams. You are Mary Harney's wet dream. Willing to borrow, pay back with interest what any socially conscious society should be paying *you* to study. You need to understand the massive negative impact medical student debt has on the american health care system and the doctors that work in it.

The universities demand payment at retail/free market rates for the education; your income in Ireland is regulated and restricted to government-mandated levels.

jtsuited

dissed doc wrote: »

it's the bank's problem? Why?

Because they are the ones who are losing money if they get pushy and cause defaults. With doctors. On a specialised loan they offered. For those people to become doctors.
It suits nobody for them to get heavy handed and not extend the repayment term/restructure if needs be (we're talking 10-15 years down the line - neither you or I can tell what our health system is going to be by then).

The banks give these loans based on their assessments of the situation. If all of us are in debt repayment hell in 10 years time, no bank is going throw bad money after good sending in debt collection agencies etc., especially because in 10 years time the main banks will still be essentially nationalised.

The political fallout of a mass default of trainee doctors would be massive, and that's why it's their problem. Because these are no longer private banks, they are (mostly) state owned institutions.

jtsuited

dissed doc wrote: »

The universities demand payment at retail/free market rates for the education; your income in Ireland is regulated and restricted to government-mandated levels.

So which is easier to predict over a period of 10 years? A job based on a free market rate or one that is 'government mandated'? Now supposing that very government actually controls the banks.

The reason the banks CAN give these loans is because it's relatively low risk because of the government mandated levels of payment. If the Irish government were to decide to not give a **** about doctors debts, they would be robbing themselves as they would be losing at the other end by being the major shareholders in the banks.

jtsuited

dissed doc wrote: »

No, if you find it unpayable, it's most definitely YOUR problem. Sacrifices are personal things. Creating a lifetime of debt slavery is not a sacrifice, it's stupidity. €100k is around US$145k. US medical students have this as a ball and chain for a decade, but they have a job market. There is NO job market that will develop in Ireland to pay back these loans. How the hell things deviated so much to compare to the entirely insane US system and not the european systems is beyond me. All the bravado of doing good for society, yet with the lack of jobs and massive debt of America. The best of both worlds. Well, don't say you weren't warned.

Too much american television has diluted your mind from actually understanding whta you said: it's the bank's problem? Why? Because Ireland has a bankruptcy and banking system like America because we are in America? They have defined training programs, with a set end point an totally stability of employment until you finish. You will never, ever, ever, ever get this system in Ireland.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You are an income stream for bankrupt Irish banks, that are struggling to develop income streams. You are Mary Harney's wet dream. Willing to borrow, pay back with interest what any socially conscious society should be paying *you* to study. You need to understand the massive negative impact medical student debt has on the american health care system and the doctors that work in it.

The universities demand payment at retail/free market rates for the education; your income in Ireland is regulated and restricted to government-mandated levels.

Oh and btw, I found this is a very good post (even though we're arguing over whose problem it is if debt repayment becomes impossible).
I am well aware that upon graduating, I will have to seriously consider my employment prospects long term, and that will inevitably involve the possibility of emigration.

dissed doc

jtsuited wrote: »

So which is easier to predict over a period of 10 years? A job based on a free market rate or one that is 'government mandated'? Now supposing that very government actually controls the banks.

The reason the banks CAN give these loans is because it's relatively low risk because of the government mandated levels of payment. If the Irish government were to decide to not give a **** about doctors debts, they would be robbing themselves as they would be losing at the other end by being the major shareholders in the banks.

You are being sold a product. Your 100k medical school loan is the new 110% mortgage. You will generate an income stream. It's not personal and as we can clearly see, the HSE or government doesn't give a fig about hospitals, jobs, who is there or how they get paid. Minimise the borrowing now. Many other countries in europe pay better salaries than in Ireland as specialists. Learn a second (or third) language. Being a doctor is great, and when you finally finish specialising, it's even better, but under no circumstances presume a damn thing about Ireland.

jtsuited

dissed doc wrote: »

You are being sold a product. Your 100k medical school loan is the new 110% mortgage. You will generate an income stream. It's not personal and as we can clearly see, the HSE or government doesn't give a fig about hospitals, jobs, who is there or how they get paid. Minimise the borrowing now. Many other countries in europe pay better salaries than in Ireland as specialists. Learn a second (or third) language.

All fair points, but where did anyone say the 100k loan was some sort of benevolent grant scheme? I presume most of us are well aware it's a product.

jtsuited

dissed doc wrote: »

Being a doctor is great, and when you finally finish specialising, it's even better, but under no circumstances presume a damn thing about Ireland.

Sorry, I quoted before you put this bit in.
Fully agree 100% with you on this. People who are going to go gung-ho into drawing down that 100k over the next four years are making big mistakes if they're expecting to definitely be able to pay it back comfortably while staying on this island.

imported_guy

dissed doc wrote: »

No, if you find it unpayable, it's most definitely YOUR problem. Sacrifices are personal things. Creating a lifetime of debt slavery is not a sacrifice, it's stupidity. €100k is around US$145k. US medical students have this as a ball and chain for a decade, but they have a job market. There is NO job market that will develop in Ireland to pay back these loans. How the hell things deviated so much to compare to the entirely insane US system and not the european systems is beyond me. All the bravado of doing good for society, yet with the lack of jobs and massive debt of America. The best of both worlds. Well, don't say you weren't warned.

Too much american television has diluted your mind from actually understanding whta you said: it's the bank's problem? Why? Because Ireland has a bankruptcy and banking system like America because we are in America? They have defined training programs, with a set end point an totally stability of employment until you finish. You will never, ever, ever, ever get this system in Ireland.

Wake up and smell the coffee. You are an income stream for bankrupt Irish banks, that are struggling to develop income streams. You are Mary Harney's wet dream. Willing to borrow, pay back with interest what any socially conscious society should be paying *you* to study. You need to understand the massive negative impact medical student debt has on the american health care system and the doctors that work in it.

The universities demand payment at retail/free market rates for the education; your income in Ireland is regulated and restricted to government-mandated levels.

post of the year. you should run for the GOP nomination, i like your fiscal conservatism

DoctorDoom

I don't know I don't think I would like to be in the GEMS loan situation. I graduated 8 yrs ago, have been paying a mortgage of between 1500 and 2000 for the past 5 [like a GEM loan type amt] and when I moved to the States this year ["to complete my training" I am trained already by any other countries standard] I had a grand total of savings of 10grand after
8 years of fees for membership exams, medical council, USMLE, training courses, RCPI etc plus a few nice hols and a wedding.

Thats after beig paid substantial overtime for the first 5 of those 8 years. By the time current GEM graduates start working the NCHD salaries
will resemble the UK for docs in training i.e. 30-max 50000. I suspect most of you will have to either do GP or emigrate, which are not bad options if you chose medicine with your eyes wide open.

bubbleking

cliff notes because I think everyone agrees on the same points

1. Draw down as little as possible
2. graduate
3. emmigrate
4. never come back
5.???????????
6. rub money on titties?

bubbleking

This is the lastest update Iv found for wage packets in the HSE

http://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/nchd/benefits/salary.html

Now can someone who knows tell me how much overtime we actually get paid for as an intern compared to the hours we need to work

e.g. presuming we work 70-80 hours do we get 20 hours overtime? I doubt we get the full 30/40 :rolleyes: wishful thinking

Im just trying to figure out whats the max loan I should be drawing down on (obv not the full 100k)

Scientist1

dissed doc wrote: »

I've mentioned this several times, and I don't think the implications of this level of debt really has gotten into people's heads. Borrowing this much money is a *bad* thing. If you must borrow, borrow 20k and go to a central or western european university. A new medical student with 70k+ of debt from this sept.

A 70k loan, over 10 years, at 4% interest, costs just over €1000 per month, assuming you start paying it back immediately. Net salary of a €40k/year SHO on the second point is €2300/month. You are *seven years* from that salary from when you start your borrowing when you start university.

What the hell are you guys thinking you can pay this back? Why are you doing this? It's complete madness. AFter you graduate, your loan payment will be exactly 50% of your net income as an intern. At best, expect a 20% overtime on top of that, if anything. The HSe opt-outs won't go on forever, like the NHS. Yes, they will curtail services before increasing staffing.

Why can't you just leave us alone! Your advice is not constructive - I've studied for the GAMSAT, got accepted into college, handed in my notice at work....I need to get super-organized - not freak out!!! Maybe my needs cost less than yours - maybe I never want to own a house......just..................STOP!!!

imported_guy

Scientist1 wrote: »

Why can't you just leave us alone! Your advice is not constructive - I've studied for the GAMSAT, got accepted into college, handed in my notice at work....I need to get super-organized - not freak out!!! Maybe my needs cost less than yours - maybe I never want to own a house......just..................STOP!!!

he posted some sound advice, its up to you to take it or leave it, if you think its not constructive you're welcome to refute it with facts, no one if forcing you to come to boards.

Scientist1

imported_guy wrote: »

he posted some sound advice, its up to you to take it or leave it, if you think its not constructive you're welcome to refute it with facts, no one if forcing you to come to boards.

I just came onto boards to compare GEM loans as I have an appointment with AIB on Monday. I've heard all the advice - I still want to study medicine. I don't need to keep hearing over and over and over again about how our lives will be forever full of misery, pain and poverty...

imported_guy

Scientist1 wrote: »

I just came onto boards to compare GEM loans as I have an appointment with AIB on Monday. I've heard all the advice - I still want to study medicine. I don't need to keep hearing over and over and over again about how our lives will be forever full of misery, pain and poverty...

you're free to look at whatever you want, or skip reading whatever you want. generally whenever i read about gay rights activists or those global warming loonys in the papers my brain tells me "oh here we go again" and I flip pages as fast as I can.

frigate gumption

you know dissed doc, if before you were born someone were to read to you a list of all the bad, negative, difficult and frightening things people routinely face during their life as a human being you would probably shake in your little booties and jump ship (and advise others to do likewise on boards.ie). anyone would.but the reality is far different. the flip side exists. and it's more powerful than the bad. the same with anything worth doing. people will make **** happen one way or another. you are only another run of the mill negative doomsday prophesiers no matter how much you claim to to be a 'realist', laying out the cold hard facts. here's a fact for you- all these hundreds of people are going to get out these loans for over a 100k and they're going to become docs and they are going to live their lives, struggling here and there, enjoying **** here and there, and they'll survive as fully and happily as anyone else. no doubt. peace out bro. 9/11 never forget. live the american bream.

jtsuited

thread's becoming a trainwreck. Perhaps a 'graduate medicine loans facts and debate' thread needs to be set up so people can make general enquiries here and then we can get into a cockfight in the other?

imported_guy

frigate gumption wrote: »

all these hundreds of people are going to get out these loans for over a 100k and they're going to become docs and they are going to live their lives, struggling here and there, enjoying **** here and there, and they'll survive as fully and happily as anyone else. no doubt. peace out bro. 9/11 never forget. live the american bream.

facts speak otherwise... as someone posted earlier you wont be earning more than 3 grand a month net until about 8 years after your graduation when you reach the registrar level, and an intern can realistically expect to earn 1.8k-2.5k net a month including over time.

chanste

Just thought I'd join in to post at this stage another quite worrying thing for people to consider... I am 3rd year GEM in UL, and have next Mon to go back and repeat an exam from 2nd year to ensure I stay in 3rd year. If I fail I will have to repeat 2nd year or cut my losses (currently running at about €55k). This honestly has me more worried about money now than I have even been in my life. It would add another €20k at least to my loan if I had to repeat a year and here's the point... there is NO support in sight. Bank won't give more, Fees are going up this year and prob will again, and honestly despite all the will in the world I don't know if I will be able to continue the course if I fail this exam, which I only missed out on by 3%. The course is hard. REALLY hard! My advice is to consider whether or not you could facilitate yourself if you found yourself in the position of repeating a year of the course.

With all that said, I think people worried about the final bill are worried too much, so long as you know how you will actually get through the course. My attitude has been that if I ended up owing as much as €140k (accounting for 5 years with interest) I would still be ok. Thats not based on pure hope either, its based on the fact that I'd be happy in a small house, and a cheap car and cutting some of the frills others may have. If as a Dr with that kind of debt I can provide for myself the same kind of lifestyle as the friends I have who work on assembly lines, or as bus drivers or whatever I will be happy with that... the goal is to be a doctor, and I'm still every bit as enthusiastic as I was when I signed for the crazy loan I have so I will do whatever it takes to place myself in a position I've wanted to be in for the last 15 years, money isn't everything.

Scientist1

imported_guy wrote: »

facts speak otherwise... as someone posted earlier you wont be earning more than 3 grand a month net until about 8 years after your graduation when you reach the registrar level, and an intern can realistically expect to earn 1.8k-2.5k net a month including over time.

THE FACTS DO NOT SPEAK OTHERWISE - HE OR SHE DID NOT DISPUTE THE WAGES - I KNOW - I AM GOING TO BE POOR - REALLY REALLY POOR -

BUT I WON'T STARVE.

Scientist1

Ok, back to the point - I have 20 grand in savings, should I use this to live on for as long as poss and take out a smaller loan or lock it away in a savings account for 4 years, take out full 100k and use savings to help with repayments for first yr or 2...????