Graduate medicine Loans

imported_guy

Scientist1 wrote: »

Ok, back to the point - I have 20 grand in savings, should I use this to live on for as long as poss and take out a smaller loan or lock it away in a savings account for 4 years, take out full 100k and use savings to help with repayments for first yr or 2...????

depends how how you're planing on saving it... lock it away in a low interest/no risk account? or will you be investing it in a mutual fund etc?what ever its going to be pick it and then compare it to the compounding interest on the on the money you're going to be borrowing a good saving strategy might be buying 20k worth of gold if current gold price increase is anything to go by, and then just draw what you need. 3 years ago gold was 700$ an ounce, last week it was 1800$.

this might be worth a read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment

bubbleking

imported_guy wrote: »

depends how how you're planing on saving it... lock it away in a low interest/no risk account? or will you be investing it in a mutual fund etc?what ever its going to be pick it and then compare it to the compounding interest on the on the money you're going to be borrowing a good saving strategy might be buying 20k worth of gold if current gold price increase is anything to go by, and then just draw what you need. 3 years ago gold was 700$ an ounce, last week it was 1800$.

I would advise against investing in gold - see house prices 6 years ago. Natural resources always spike in times of recession but I think that ship has sailed i.e. it would be a high risk investment now.

My advise would be to borrow for the fees and use the 20k to live off for as long as possible. Everyones situation is different but that should keep you going for the first 2 years anyway and work from there

On a side note - just got a phonecall from AIB to say my loan was approved

imported_guy

bubbleking wrote: »

I would advise against investing in gold - see house prices 6 years ago. Natural resources always spike in times of recession but I think that ship has sailed i.e. it would be a high risk investment now.

My advise would be to borrow for the fees and use the 20k to live off for as long as possible. Everyones situation is different but that should keep you going for the first 2 years anyway and work from there

On a side note - just got a phonecall from AIB to say my loan was approved

well didn't moody's predict last week there is over a 30% chance of entering another recession? http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-08-14-economists-survey_n.htm plus he's only investing in it for 4 years

although your strategy might be pretty good too, 4-5k each year on rent, he would only have to borrow in the last 2 years or maybe only the last 3 semesters for living costs, so i doubt his loan will go over 70k, more like will be about 60k

dissed doc

bubbleking wrote: »

I would advise against investing in gold - see house prices 6 years ago. Natural resources always spike in times of recession but I think that ship has sailed i.e. it would be a high risk investment now.

My advise would be to borrow for the fees and use the 20k to live off for as long as possible. Everyones situation is different but that should keep you going for the first 2 years anyway and work from there

On a side note - just got a phonecall from AIB to say my loan was approved

That is what I think as well. 20k with some part time work to add to it will see you through 4 years. Minimise the borrowing. On the other hand, I am basically assuming that as the debt will simply not be paid back, the government/HSE will solve staffing problems by writing off the debt if you promise to remain indentured to the HSE for a period of 3-4 years after graduating. If this isn't on the cards, then the IMO are missing a trick. Country needs doctors, doctors would like to work but are in debt: solution - HSE pays the debt, doctors stay and work in the hospitals.

jtsuited

dissed doc wrote: »

That is what I think as well. 20k with some part time work to add to it will see you through 4 years. Minimise the borrowing. On the other hand, I am basically assuming that as the debt will simply not be paid back, the government/HSE will solve staffing problems by writing off the debt if you promise to remain indentured to the HSE for a period of 3-4 years after graduating. If this isn't on the cards, then the IMO are missing a trick. Country needs doctors, doctors would like to work but are in debt: solution - HSE pays the debt, doctors stay and work in the hospitals.

er, isn't this what I was saying about it being the bank's problem if there is a mass debt problem for doctors in the HSE? Given that the HSE and the banks are essentially controlled and owned by the state.

imported_guy

jtsuited wrote: »

er, isn't this what I was saying about it being the bank's problem if there is a mass debt problem for doctors in the HSE? Given that the HSE and the banks are essentially controlled and owned by the state.

its still your problem if you go bankrupt banks wont say "ahh yeah sure keep loaning him, it was our fault that hes bankrupt". we are not communists. there is still some personal liberty and a sense of responsibility.

jtsuited

imported_guy wrote: »

its still your problem if you go bankrupt banks wont say "ahh yeah sure keep loaning him, it was our fault that hes bankrupt". we are not communists.

we aren't but we aren't pure free market capitalists either (by a long bloody way)......if you want evidence of that, consider the proportion of the main banks' owned by the state.

imported_guy wrote: »

there is still some personal liberty and a sense of responsibility.

exactly. some. not complete. or even lots of.
If push came to shove, any government who didn't want a very messy political hot potato on their hands, would bail out their doctors if there was a threat of a mass default-and-exodus of new Irish doctors.

imported_guy

jtsuited wrote: »

we aren't but we aren't pure free market capitalists either (by a long bloody way)......if you want evidence of that, consider the proportion of the main banks' owned by the state.


exactly. some. not complete. or even lots of.
If push came to shove, any government who didn't want a very messy political hot potato on their hands, would bail out their doctors if there was a threat of a mass default-and-exodus of new Irish doctors.

i agree no economy in this world is a free market capitalst, but everyone PRETENDS to be one

hence we have credit ratings/credit history, a bankruptcy doesnt look good, you're speculating that the government wont let you go bankrupt, I dont see how they're going to fix this

you gave em alot of money to study medicine.... whats stopping them from importing indian/pakistani doctors and politely kicking you out of the country? ahem i mean forcing you to migrate. ofcourse, you will be taking your bank statements and your credit history and debts with you when you leave.

kermicrzy

Hate to step in here but I dont know what all of you are complaining about. Your lonas are no where near what I will be paying. Its approx 40k a year in fees alone for non-EU students, not to mention cost of living. But Ive always known I was going to do medicine and money wasnt going to stop me. Im more than happy to spend the next 10-15 years paying it off. My dad took ten years to pay off his med school loans while having two kids, new house and my mom stopped working. The thing is the intrest is so low that its worth taking if you really want to be a doctor. The people here that seem to harp on and on, are the ones that dont seem that dedicated to medicine. So what we'll be poor students for another few years...

I thought most of us were becoming doctors to help people, not to buy new cars and mansions when we graduate. Grow up, the money is miniscule to what the rest of us are sacrificing!

imported_guy

jtsuited wrote: »

If push came to shove, any government who didn't want a very messy political hot potato on their hands, would bail out their doctors if there was a threat of a mass default-and-exodus of new Irish doctors.

by the way.... are we talking about the same government who's public debt is 74% of the GDP?

imported_guy

kermicrzy wrote: »

Hate to step in here but I dont know what all of you are complaining about. Your lonas are no where near what I will be paying. Its approx 40k a year in fees alone for non-EU students, not to mention coats of living. But Ive always known I was going to do medicine and money wasnt going to stop me. Im more than happy to spend the next 10-15 years paying it off. My dad took ten years to pay off his med school loans while having two kids, new house and my mom stopped working. The thing is the intrest is so low that its worth taking if you really want to be a doctor. The people here that seem to harp on and one are the ones that dont seem that dedicated to medicine. So what we'll be poor students for another few years...

I thought most of us were becoming doctors to help people, not to buy new cars and mansions when we graduate. Grow up, the money is miniscule to what the rest of us are sacrificing!

i assume you're american. you're also going to be earning 300k++ if you're an anesthesiologist, and 500k+ if you're a cardiologist on average after your reisdency/fellow, dont even get me started on salaries for dermatologists, ENT's or opthamologists.

heres some quick merritt hawkins data

source anesthesia: http://www.merritthawkins.com/job-search/job-search-results.aspx?profession=Physician&specialtyId=2&regionId=-1



cardiology: http://www.merritthawkins.com/job-search/job-search-results.aspx?profession=Physician&specialtyId=37&regionId=-1#jobGridResults
i also assume if you further specialise in pain medicine, or internventional cardiology you can continue "growing"

kermicrzy

imported_guy wrote: »

i assume you're american. you're also going to be earning 300k++ if you're an anesthesiologist, and 500k+ if you're a cardiologist on average after your reisdency/fellow, dont even get me started on salaries for dermatologists, ENT's or opthamologists.

heres some quick merritt hawkins data

source anesthesia: http://www.merritthawkins.com/job-search/job-search-results.aspx?profession=Physician&specialtyId=2&regionId=-1#jobGridResults



cardiology: http://www.merritthawkins.com/job-search/job-search-results.aspx?profession=Physician&specialtyId=37&regionId=-1#jobGridResults

i also assume if you further specialise in pain medicine, or internventional cardiology you can continue "growing"

Haha I wish! Nah since Ill be an IMG Ill be at the bottom of the pecking order for residencies so Ill prob get stuck in something less competitive (and less money). But then again I wont have to wait 20 years to become a consultant, which is an absolute joke in the country. You guys do have to s*** if you stay in Ireland, I wouldnt disagree with all of you on that.

Ill be the poor American wearing rags to class, and the one that never has any money to get the next round. Ok its not THAT bad but still all this talk of money is just depressing.

imported_guy

kermicrzy wrote: »

Haha I wish! Nah since Ill be an IMG Ill be at the bottom of the pecking order for residencies so Ill prob get stuck in something less competitive (and less money). But then again I wont have to wait 20 years to become a consultant, which is an absolute joke in the country. You guys do have to s*** if you stay in Ireland, I wouldnt disagree with all of you on that.

Ill be the poor American wearing rags to class, and the one that never has any money to get the next round. Ok its not THAT bad but still all this talk of money is just depressing.

yup i agree IMGs have it a little tough, but you're american you dont need a VISA, some residencies exlude you completely if you dont have a green card, so you're still lucky in the sense that you're in the top tier of the IMGs , unless you end up in paediatrics or family medicine, you wont be much worse off than an irish consultant

and yes I agree the irish system is a joke, but as I said before, for some of these guys going over to america isnt feaseable since their debt is in euro and they'll be earning in dollars, and it wont stretch much with people being paid 40-60k during their residency.

kermicrzy

Yeah totally agree but you never know whats going to happen to the Euro in even the next year, let alone four years. For all we know we'll be back to the pound before we know it. Since Im already in UCD I did consider getting an AIB loan to help with coast of tuition since it would be easier than paying massive amount from America every September but Im just as worried as you guys about this. Might do it next year, if we are allowed to? Not sure if we are only allowed to get loan in the first year?

But I just wanna throw something out there. Might be a complete joke but is there any guarantee for the Irish students that the gov't will keep paying half of your fees for the next four years? If the gov't have no money and they are funding all these people to do grad medicine who just leave the country, why would they keep shelling out for everyone to emigrate??? So could they just cut the rope so to speak?? I mean if they are having to bring in doctors from India to fill the jr doctor spots while they forked out millions for Irish students to take them, it seems a bit mad to keep doing it.

Its just something Ive been thinking about last few weeks, but maybe Im very wrong?? Its just something I would be worried about if I was Irish

imported_guy

kermicrzy wrote: »

Yeah totally agree but you never know whats going to happen to the Euro in even the next year, let alone four years. For all we know we'll be back to the pound before we know it. Since Im already in UCD I did consider getting an AIB loan to help with coast of tuition since it would be easier than paying massive amount from America every September but Im just as worried as you guys about this. Might do it next year, if we are allowed to? Not sure if we are only allowed to get loan in the first year?

But I just wanna throw something out there. Might be a complete joke but is there any guarantee for the Irish students that the gov't will keep paying half of your fees for the next four years? If the gov't have no money and they are funding all these people to do grad medicine who just leave the country, why would they keep shelling out for everyone to emigrate??? So could they just cut the rope so to speak?? I mean if they are having to bring in doctors from India to fill the jr doctor spots while they forked out millions for Irish students to take them, it seems a bit mad to keep doing it.

Its just something Ive been thinking about last few weeks, but maybe Im very wrong?? Its just something I would be worried about if I was Irish

on your second paragraph, no there are no gurantees, when the course first started our contribution used to be around 11-12k now its over 15k and the course has been out for about 4-5 years. & yes this has been a really crappy investment for the irish government, there are no gurantees anyone is going to stay in the country, so basically they are training people and then people are just walking off, i think there was a debate about this on RTE.

on your first paragraph we dont know about the economic uncertainties, but ireland isnt going back on the pound, all of the debt is in euro and if we go back to the pound we cant devalue our currency like america to pay back our debt since if we devalue the pound, our debt in essence increases, while on the other hand the american debt is in dollars, and if the dollar devalues (AKA print more money) they can make money out of thin air to pay back their debt. (this will have its concequences but i wont get into macro economics on this forum :P)

Scientist1

imported_guy wrote: »

well didn't moody's predict last week there is over a 30% chance of entering another recession? http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-08-14-economists-survey_n.htm plus he's only investing in it for 4 years

although your strategy might be pretty good too, 4-5k each year on rent, he would only have to borrow in the last 2 years or maybe only the last 3 semesters for living costs, so i doubt his loan will go over 70k, more like will be about 60k

Haha - he is a she

If you don't mind me asking where are you working and what did you specialise in?

ciara84

dissed doc wrote: »

No, if you find it unpayable, it's most definitely YOUR problem. Sacrifices are personal things. Creating a lifetime of debt slavery is not a sacrifice, it's stupidity. 100k is around US$145k. US medical students have this as a ball and chain for a decade, but they have a job market. There is NO job market that will develop in Ireland to pay back these loans. How the hell things deviated so much to compare to the entirely insane US system and not the european systems is beyond me. All the bravado of doing good for society, yet with the lack of jobs and massive debt of America. The best of both worlds. Well, don't say you weren't warned. Too much american television has diluted your mind from actually understanding whta you said: it's the bank's problem? Why? Because Ireland has a bankruptcy and banking system like America because we are in America? They have defined training programs, with a set end point an totally stability of employment until you finish. You will never, ever, ever, ever get this system in Ireland. Wake up and smell the coffee. You are an income stream for bankrupt Irish banks, that are struggling to develop income streams. You are Mary Harney's wet dream. Willing to borrow, pay back with interest what any socially conscious society should be paying *you* to study. You need to understand the massive negative impact medical student debt has on the american health care system and the doctors that work in it. The universities demand payment at retail/free market rates for the education; your income in Ireland is regulated and restricted to government-mandated levels.

oh god that is actually shocking for someone who might have to borrow next year, my parents chipped in this year so i'm lucky in that sense!

Scientist1

ciara84 wrote: »

oh god that is actually shocking for someone who might have to borrow next year, my parents chipped in this year so i'm lucky in that sense!

My parents and brother offered - I refused - I'm 28 y.o. - not taking hand-outs, never have, never will...

Sid_Justice

Scientist1 wrote: »

My parents and brother offered - I refused - I'm 28 y.o. - not taking hand-outs, never have, never will...

lol

Scientist1

imported_guy wrote: »

well everyone KNOWS what they are getting into i'm sure, but they just dont realise the full force of it.... and ofcourse alot of these people want to go to america (here we go again), to train... and over there you earn about 40k-60k depending on where you live (if you live in an expensive city, you earn more, opposite if you live where everything is cheap) on top of that there is usually federal, and then state income tax... and then the dollar is worth half as much as a euro (nearly, its 0.6), so those people are automatically... ehh F'd, AKA if you earn 50k dollars, you're really earning 25k euro... and this is all before taxes.

now i dont know much about australia, its alot more socialized so i guess alot more tax, but i dont know if the AUD is as weak as the USD, and i heard you cant work insane hours in australia to make up for lost earnings (its the same in america usually, ur tied to the residency you work in, unelss ur allowed to "moonlight")

You're lecturing us on the career choice of graduate medicine and you're not a qualified doctor, are you? Are you a medical student????????

dissed doc

kermicrzy wrote: »

I thought most of us were becoming doctors to help people, not to buy new cars and mansions when we graduate. Grow up, the money is miniscule to what the rest of us are sacrificing!

There is a large grey area of the world between everything is awesome and everything sucks. It's not about being poor vs rich. This bipolar black/white thinking seems pretty prevalent.

As you develop and grow older, you will have different priorities in life. Medicine is just a job. It doesn't make you special. However, the ego of young medical students drives them on thinking they are special. At the end of the day, remember the 10% unemployment rate among German doctors over the last decade.

Many developed countries pay the fees of those studying medicine and also provide them with career paths and the security of employment and income (above average, not loads) to do the work with a mostly clear head. It appears we are for some reason choosing to ignore the systems in place in the countries who's health services we are apparently trying to replicate.

A young SHO surgeon pulling extra 48hr shifts to clear a 100k loan while in A/E is not the greatest system.

ciara84

Scientist1 wrote: »

You're lecturing us on the career choice of graduate medicine and you're not a qualified doctor, are you? Are you a medical student????????

it doesnt matter who he is or what he does, hes just a random poster like me and you, you should take everything being said here with a pinch of salt, the politics forum is full of people talking about macro economics of america and unsustainability of their wars, it doesnt mean they're all off spring of ben bernanke or alan green span, nor are they the offspring of general petraeus or Sun Tzu

Tradesmann

So what would be the advice for someone who has 50k savings? Is it possible to not bother with any loan until say beginning of year 3 and then go talk to a bank?

Gold investment sets warning bells off in my mind - its close to a peak in my view, 2006 was the time to do it. Inverse relationship to property etc.

Cheers for advice

ciara84

Tradesmann wrote: »

So what would be the advice for someone who has 50k savings? Is it possible to not bother with any loan until say beginning of year 3 and then go talk to a bank? Gold investment sets warning bells off in my mind - its close to a peak in my view, 2006 was the time to do it. Inverse relationship to property etc. Cheers for advice

im not taking any loans out until next year, I have good bit of savings but i would have had to take a huge hit if i took them out on such short notice, so my parents chipped in when I was refused a loan by AIB. I did talk to AIB and they told me if my situation changed next year they will look at my application again (I already had a 30k loan from them to do an MBA, from which i paid back over 10k, still have 20k) I still think there is some merit in buying gold right now with the economic uncertainty, i'm pretty sure we're heading into another recession and gold is the only safety net, the inflation-adjusted price of gold isn't the highest ever recorded (i think that was back in the 1930s or something) and we still have a long way to go. Most of my savings however are in 10 year Treasury bonds, gold, some stock although im not too big on stock because of the uncertainties associated with it, if you're an agressive investor and are unshaken by 5% drops of markets like Dow in a day then go right ahead :P. If I had 50k which wasnt stuck somewhere I'd use it to study medicine rather than invest (atleast in non liquid assets).... bit skeptical of gold though since it MIGHT be a bubble, but ahhh gold has been my best earner since i started saving, so cant blame it :P, treasuries and maybe to a lesser extent gold are still the best liquid assets in this economy.

alcomoholic

everyone on the thread is suddenly the next bernie madof, gimme a break, stick to what ye know and don't be offering financial advice when most of ye are nothing but a pack of cowboys with a couple of extra letters on the end of yer names.

JordyWordy

quebec wrote: »

Has anyone tried to strike a deal where you pay off the interest each year that you're in college?

I asked ulster bank about this, they said they would take loan applications (fees up to 60K), paying interest only during the 4 years in college, which is apporx €360 per month, and then start paying the capital back in year 5.

On the other hand, the lady i spoke to had never heard of Graduate Medicine....so I took most of what she said with a spoon of salt.

JordyWordy

Also, Buy gold now!!

SELL SELL SELL!!

Move to america!!!


All this negative freakout rubbish has reminded me of....

etymon

Lads, if you drink, I'm advising you now to immediately locate your classmates living in Camden/Baggot St or Temple Bar and make good friends with them. This comes in handy down the line when you want to volunteer people for house parties. Then get yourself down to Lidl for a litre of Count Vomitov and Urban Outfitters for a hip flask for the nightclub. Pick the most sober member of the group to negotiate free entry for 'student doctors' at the door (mumble the 'student' bit). Finally, use student discount at dodgy burrito place on way home - or - if you're in luck- you'll have a Farsi- speaking member of the class who can get you free kebabs in Zaytoon.
Now all I have to do is brush up on my Italian for the Blanchardstown chippers. Sorted!

Sid_Justice

etymon wrote: »

negotiate free entry for 'student doctors' at the door (mumble the 'student' bit).

:rolleyes:

Yillan

Sid_Justice wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Your hostility is so refreshing. Love it