Graduate medicine Loans

sam34

ok, can the last 4 or 5 posters cop on a little bit and everyone get this back on topic.

etymon

Ok well BACK on topic BOI give all med students 2 grand in September of 2nd and 3rd year and 2.5 in 4th year. No repayments til graduation etc. Not sure of interest rate but ask for 'preferred loan' off any of their student officers. V handy for top up of loan.
PS sorry if someone else posted this but thread trawling is a bitch on the phone

heybert

etymon wrote: »

Ok well BACK on topic BOI give all med students 2 grand in September of 2nd and 3rd year and 2.5 in 4th year. No repayments til graduation etc. Not sure of interest rate but ask for 'preferred loan' off any of their student officers. V handy for top up of loan.
PS sorry if someone else posted this but thread trawling is a bitch on the phone

Does this still count if you have the loan with AIB? I haven't seen our loan contract yet but doesn't it state that we can't (or at least have to notify them if we wish to) take out any further loans during that time?

drrkpd

del85 wrote: »

That's fair enough.

But my point was that where there's a will, there is a way. For those paying full-whack, a ten year loan integrated into a mortgage would be difficult but not unmanageable. Locum gigs will always be an option too, and if you're flexible enough to travel where the work is you will make a dent in your hundred grand loan.

All I'm saying is that it can be done.

As a matter of fact locums are not as easy an option I am afraid. You cannot do locums as an intern and you will find your registration with the medical council is usually tied to the hospital that you work. It changes with more experience and being on the general register. Secondly the hse is committed to hugely reduce the amount of money spent on locums(watch the press). Thirdly it is actively discouraged to do locums and work for the hse!!!

dissed doc

Can I add just one more bit of advice here: examine the contract carefully and ensure that if the worst happens and you have become bankrupt in 10 years (yes I know this sounds insane), that these loans are dischargable in bankruptcy the same as any personal/credit card loan.

The US college loans are not - you are stuck with it for life, even if you are bankrupt. It has financially crippled thousands of people there including doctors. Like I said, we are not America, but the debt level is. Just plan for the worst case scenario, and also ensure that the bank is contractually obliged to inform you if they ever sell the debt to another credit agency, and that they are also obliged to inform you periodically e.g., every 6 months of your capital and interest payments and outstanding amounts.

Edit: and also, if they ever consolidate or restructure the loan to package up deferred interest payments into a new principal amount.

del85

drrkpd wrote: »

As a matter of fact locums are not as easy an option I am afraid. You cannot do locums as an intern and you will find your registration with the medical council is usually tied to the hospital that you work. It changes with more experience and being on the general register. Secondly the hse is committed to hugely reduce the amount of money spent on locums(watch the press). Thirdly it is actively discouraged to do locums and work for the hse!!!

"Easy option" is not a phrase I'd use. I was aware that pre-reg interns can't locum, but SHO's can and even if the HSE were to introduce some pseudo-moratorium on using them, there's still up north or across the pond to look to. Some hospitals will even pay your airfare/accommodation if I'm not mistaken?

People can nay-say all they want about GEM, but I think we're lucky to have the opportunity.

Roger_that

Does anyone have anything actually positive to say about this situation? The 100k loan scenario does seem like its going to be a few lean years after graduation but essentially if you really want to be a doc, it'll be worth it. We'll all be working so much that we'll have no time to spend what little money we have anyway!! GEM started in 2007 so the first stream of graduates will be starting work soon. It'll be an interesting 12 months to see how the banks and them deal with repayment

Biologic

Roger_that wrote: »

GEM started in 2007 so the first stream of graduates will be starting work soon. It'll be an interesting 12 months to see how the banks and them deal with repayment

The first GEPs graduated from RCSI last year, so are just finished their internships. As far as I know, none are scavenging discarded doner kebabs off Grafton Street just yet.

etymon

heybert wrote: »

etymon wrote: »

Ok well BACK on topic BOI give all med students 2 grand in September of 2nd and 3rd year and 2.5 in 4th year. No repayments til graduation etc. Not sure of interest rate but ask for 'preferred loan' off any of their student officers. V handy for top up of loan.
PS sorry if someone else posted this but thread trawling is a bitch on the phone

Does this still count if you have the loan with AIB? I haven't seen our loan contract yet but doesn't it state that we can't (or at least have to notify them if we wish to) take out any further loans during that time?

Dunno. Looked for my contract a while ago and appear to have lost it. Can't see why AIB would care bout other subsequent loans with banks or credit unions though- they can hardly expect us to exist on 9k a year?

kruzer

etymon wrote: »

heybert wrote: »

etymon wrote: »

Ok well BACK on topic BOI give all med students 2 grand in September of 2nd and 3rd year and 2.5 in 4th year. No repayments til graduation etc. Not sure of interest rate but ask for 'preferred loan' off any of their student officers. V handy for top up of loan.
PS sorry if someone else posted this but thread trawling is a bitch on the phone

Does this still count if you have the loan with AIB? I haven't seen our loan contract yet but doesn't it state that we can't (or at least have to notify them if we wish to) take out any further loans during that time?

Dunno. Looked for my contract a while ago and appear to have lost it. Can't see why AIB would care bout other subsequent loans with banks or credit unions though- they can hardly expect us to exist on 9k a year?

U can get subsequent loans but they must be cleared by AIB

chanste

Does anyone know if it is likely that you can role the loan into a mortgage? I mean if I qualified with 110k loan and wanted to buy a house that was about €250k with my wife, would it be possible to get a mortgage for €360k? I fear that would cause problems with negative equity but by the numbers it would just be easier to manage that way, than to have a mortgage AND a €100k loan, I'd owe the same either way. Would it work maybe if mortgage was with same bank as med loan?

dissed doc

chanste wrote: »

Does anyone know if it is likely that you can role the loan into a mortgage? I mean if I qualified with 110k loan and wanted to buy a house that was about €250k with my wife, would it be possible to get a mortgage for €360k? I fear that would cause problems with negative equity but by the numbers it would just be easier to manage that way, than to have a mortgage AND a €100k loan, I'd owe the same either way. Would it work maybe if mortgage was with same bank as med loan?

Oh my god.

you want to consolidate a 110k university loan plus it's interest into a new loan over 30 years plus another 250k + interest.

Jesus christ almight does anyone study maths anymore. Negative equity isn't the problem, you are already - 110k, and haven't made a single payment on it, yet now you want borrow more, stretch out 5-10 years of payments to thirty. If you have a 110k debt, unpaid, then you can't afford a mortgage and here is why.

110k over 10 years, with 4 years deferred payments = €128k owning when you graduate.

That costs around €1300/month over 10 years to clear (i.e., around 30-40% of your net income as a doctor for the entire duration of training). If you want to package up that 128k plus 250k over e.g., 25 years that is now €2000/month.

Just to make it clear: if you are borrowing 110k now, and deferring payments for four years, you will clear this loan in *14 years time* having paid *over 50% of your net salary as a doctor* to service it at €1300/month.

Your net salary will be at best, 8 years afer graduation (around 12 years time, therefore), around €4k/month, but you will start at 2k as an intern.

So basically you want to graduate, in 4 years, on a 2k net income per month salary, and spend 2k per month, your entire income pn servicing a mortgage and student loan. And you are actually asking is this possible.

Oh my god, I give up. If this is the type of thinking of the future of irish medicine, it's a lost cause.

Biologic

No need to be so dramatic. You missed the bit where he said he would be splitting it with his wife. So the 2k/month repayment you quoted would presumably be a 1k/month one. Also, the 4-year amount would be lower than 128k as you don't borrow 100k at the start so interest accrues on 25k (max) in year one etc., but that's a minor point. I'm not saying it's an easy situation to be in, but it's doable. I know people in more negative equity with much bleaker employment prospects.

If this is the type of thinking of the future of irish medicine, it's a lost cause.

You've spent the last 2 years telling us it's already a lost cause.

del85

dissed doc wrote: »

Oh my god.

Oh my god, I give up.

Probably doing everyone a favour to be honest mate.

drrkpd

del85 wrote: »

"Easy option" is not a phrase I'd use. I was aware that pre-reg interns can't locum, but SHO's can and even if the HSE were to introduce some pseudo-moratorium on using them, there's still up north or across the pond to look to. Some hospitals will even pay your airfare/accommodation if I'm not mistaken?

People can nay-say all they want about GEM, but I think we're lucky to have the opportunity.

It is not a pseudo-moratorium it is a real moratorium and if you read the press you will see hse is and will cut what it will pay agencies. Yes the North and UK are options but you need full GMC registration-£420 per year, full police clearance in both states, immunisation certificates, BCG and a few other things - read the small print on any UK agency website.

The point I also made is that you will find that if you are on a specialist rotation then your medical council registration is specifically for the hospitals you are working in and you cannot do locums in any other hospital. I am not trying to be negative but realistic and I do know what I am talking about.

GP locums are a different story but you have to have enough experience to do them and the cash days are long gone-in fact the subject of revenue investigation.

I sincerely hope the graduate loans are at a low interest level similar to the UK student loans.

Biologic

del85 wrote: »

Probably doing everyone a favour to be honest mate.

That's a tad unfair. It's true that a lot of people see 100k of debt as some imaginary figure that will just sort itself out, Dissed Doc was just trying to highlight what this level of debt will mean on a month to month basis. Even if he is somewhat fatalistic in going about it .

del85

drrkpd wrote: »

It is not a pseudo-moratorium it is a real moratorium and if you read the press you will see hse is and will cut what it will pay agencies. Yes the North and UK are options but you need full GMC registration-£420 per year, full police clearance in both states, immunisation certificates, BCG and a few other things - read the small print on any UK agency website.

The point I also made is that you will find that if you are on a specialist rotation then your medical council registration is specifically for the hospitals you are working in and you cannot do locums in any other hospital. I am not trying to be negative but realistic and I do know what I am talking about.

GP's are a different story but you have to have enough experience to do them and the cash days are long gone-in fact the subject of revenue investigation.

I sincerely hope the graduate loans are at a low interest level similar to the UK student loans.

I do read the odd paper and I have seen the reports of the 'crackdown' on using locums as a stop-gap, but I have not read anything about locum positions within the jursitiction being suspended completely, which what a moratorium is. I'd be happy to read any links you can provide that suggest it's on the cards though.

If you're on the general register/have just completed intern year, is becoming a locum not a viable option for those looking to reduce their debt, "small print on agency sites" notwithstanding?

del85

Biologic wrote: »

That's a tad unfair. It's true that a lot of people see 100k of debt as some imaginary figure that will just sort itself out, Dissed Doc was just trying to highlight what this level of debt will mean on a month to month basis. Even if he is somewhat fatalistic in going about it .

Somebody took the time and effort to post in the hope of getting a bit of constructive advice. To respond with...

"Oh my God, I give up. Oh My God. If this is the type of thinking of the future of irish medicine, it's a lost cause."

....is pathetic.

Is it begrudgery or plain nastiness that has people lining up to put the boot in?

alcomoholic

jesus got offered a place in ul there but reading this thread that dissed doc has put me right off it, is it really all that bad! i'd say he needs a good ride to get him out of his depressive and negative slump in life that he is clearly undergoing!! :P

dissed doc

del85 wrote: »

I do read the odd paper and I have seen the reports of the 'crackdown' on using locums as a stop-gap, but I have not read anything about locum positions within the jursitiction being suspended completely, which what a moratorium is. I'd be happy to read any links you can provide that suggest it's on the cards though.

If you're on the general register/have just completed intern year, is becoming a locum not a viable option for those looking to reduce their debt, "small print on agency sites" notwithstanding?

The General Division is not accessible to people on training schemes and is a legacy registration feature which none of those entering medicine from this year will ever be able to access. The only option is Intern Registration --> Trainee Specialist (from SHO up to SpR) and Specialist (on completion of SpR). If you are working as an SHO on e.g., BST surgery or medicine, you will be only eligible for Trainee Specialist, and that : "Trainee specialist registration permits the prescribing of drugs only for those patients of the clinical site/health service setting in which the medical practitioner is employed". You are legally forbidden from conducting medical practice in any capacity outside your training environment.

Despite the negative responses (I feel like someone saying there is a housing bubble and it's the year 2005), I have worked for 10 yrs+ in the HSE. It's clear as daylight how they are planning to screw over the entire next generation of medics - massive student debt, and junior "sub-consultant" posts. If that is what you want, be my guest. The health care system is fundamentally based on the doctors that work in it. Ignorance of the financial and professional games being played on your future does not bode well as future advocates for patient care, does it.

THe HSE has banned locums from August 15th this year except in exceptional circumstances.

dissed doc

alcomoholic wrote: »

jesus got offered a place in ul there but reading this thread that dissed doc has put me right off it, is it really all that bad! i'd say he needs a good ride to get him out of his depressive and negative slump in life that he is clearly undergoing!! :P

Don't let reality and facts get in the way of the opportunity for childish responses.

chanste

dissed doc wrote: »

Oh my god.
...
Oh my god, I give up. If this is the type of thinking of the future of irish medicine, it's a lost cause.

Your saying the numbers don't add up, but as was mentioned elsewhere you failed to take into account my wife's earnings. I just felt compelled to address this as I know of many people (who by the way aren't too bad at maths) who manage a €350k mortgage just fine - not much more per month than the rent on the last house I was in, which was far from a disaster. Anyway, I wasn't claiming to be an expert which was why I posted looking for people's opinions.

I really don't want to make an argument out of this, but I'll just say you could have made your point with slightly less enthusiasm to show how much of an idiot you think I am. I don't recall every making such efforts to offend you on these boards.

del85

dissed doc wrote: »

The General Division is not accessible to people on training schemes and is a legacy registration feature which none of those entering medicine from this year will ever be able to access. The only option is Intern Registration --> Trainee Specialist (from SHO up to SpR) and Specialist (on completion of SpR). If you are working as an SHO on e.g., BST surgery or medicine, you will be only eligible for Trainee Specialist, and that : "Trainee specialist registration permits the prescribing of drugs only for those patients of the clinical site/health service setting in which the medical practitioner is employed". You are legally forbidden from conducting medical practice in any capacity outside your training environment.

Despite the negative responses (I feel like someone saying there is a housing bubble and it's the year 2005), I have worked for 10 yrs+ in the HSE. It's clear as daylight how they are planning to screw over the entire next generation of medics - massive student debt, and junior "sub-consultant" posts. If that is what you want, be my guest. The health care system is fundamentally based on the doctors that work in it. Ignorance of the financial and professional games being played on your future does not bode well as future advocates for patient care, does it.

THe HSE has banned locums from August 15th this year except in exceptional circumstances.

The IMC website indicates that it is possible to move from the trainee specialist register to the general one with some regualirty- eg, when a training post expires etc. Where can I read up on this new block to entering the general register?


Incidentally, is your casual condescension something you bring to the wards with you, doctor?

Perhaps our insistence upon pursuing the graduate route in spite of the obvious financial implications is a sign of determination rather than stupidity?

How does that bode for our future patients?

jimdeans

As the partner of a doctor, the young students here haven't a clue what they're getting into.

We've no money now, and she's graduated 6 year, with minimal debts.

Overtime not being paid.

Don't make me laugh about locums. Too tired after 48 hour shifts, and half the time she just has to cover absenteeism of other colleagues, as the hospitals just don't do locums any more.

asking people to pay 100 for the pleasure of doing this is taking advantage, if you ask me.

Also I don't understand all the stuff dissed doc was talking about with the new registration, but it has defo become very hard for junior docs to be registered properly to do locums. And they're not allowed to locum as a GP unless they fulfil certain criteria.

drrkpd

Biologic wrote: »

That's a tad unfair. It's true that a lot of people see 100k of debt as some imaginary figure that will just sort itself out, Dissed Doc was just trying to highlight what this level of debt will mean on a month to month basis. Even if he is somewhat fatalistic in going about it .

I agree -100K does sound a scary amount of debt to me as I have said. I also said "I sincerely hope the graduate loans are at a low interest level similar to the UK student loans" The question is are they?? Is the interest loan fixed or variable and do the repayments increase as your salary increases like UK student loans??

drrkpd

jimdeans wrote: »

As the partner of a doctor, the young students here haven't a clue what they're getting into.

We've no money now, and she's graduated 6 year, with minimal debts.

Overtime not being paid.

Don't make me laugh about locums. Too tired after 48 hour shifts, and half the time she just has to cover absenteeism of other colleagues, as the hospitals just don't do locums any more.

asking people to pay 100 for the pleasure of doing this is taking advantage, if you ask me.

Also I don't understand all the stuff dissed doc was talking about with the new registration, but it has defo become very hard for junior docs to be registered properly to do locums. And they're not allowed to locum as a GP unless they fulfil certain criteria.

Sounds like advice well worth listening to!!!!!!1

drrkpd

del85 wrote: »

I do read the odd paper and I have seen the reports of the 'crackdown' on using locums as a stop-gap, but I have not read anything about locum positions within the jursitiction being suspended completely, which what a moratorium is. I'd be happy to read any links you can provide that suggest it's on the cards though.

If you're on the general register/have just completed intern year, is becoming a locum not a viable option for those looking to reduce their debt, "small print on agency sites" notwithstanding?

Google search locums hse-
EDs' future in doubt over the locum ban — Irish Medical Times

www.imt.ie/news/.../eds-future-in-doubt-over-the-locum-ban.html - Cached
10 Aug 2011 – The IAEM said it had serious concerns about the HSE ..

and believe me there are far more hospitals doing the same

drrkpd

And in that article it says the following-

The projected bill for agency doctors for 2011 is €61 million. The HSE said it had no budget and “cannot afford” this outlay. Hiring locum NCHDs is to cease from August 15, except in “exceptional circumstances”.

drrkpd

drrkpd wrote: »

I agree -100K does sound a scary amount of debt to me as I have said. I also said "I sincerely hope the graduate loans are at a low interest level similar to the UK student loans" The question is are they?? Is the interest loan fixed or variable and do the repayments increase as your salary increases like UK student loans??

Now that we have finished with locums anyone answer these points??

del85

drrkpd wrote: »

And in that article it says the following-

The projected bill for agency doctors for 2011 is €61 million. The HSE said it had no budget and “cannot afford” this outlay. Hiring locum NCHDs is to cease from August 15, except in “exceptional circumstances”.

I'd be interested to see what qualifies as "exceptional circumstances". I'd also be interested to see the lay of the land in half a decade's time when we get our registration.

drrkpd wrote: »

Now that we have finished with locums anyone answer these points??

The interest rate is fixed, but the repayment schedule is negotiable.