Graduate medicine Loans

TheyAreComing

Hey guys, getting back on topic I've been perusing these pages the last day or so and have to say some of you have really done a good job in scaring the absolute sh!t out of me. I'm due to start in GEM in UCD this September and currently having the AIB GEM Loan processed. This thread has really frightened me and considering GEM is something I've been working toward the last couple years I'm extremely disheartened and worried at the minute. Pretty much be on my own financially so I'll be relying on the loan a fair bit, to cover the fees at the very least. I'd heard things were getting bad as regards overtime etc but is it all as fatalistic as some are making out? Would you consider repayment of this loan completely out of the realms of earnings over say ten years following graduation?? I'm getting quotes of figures and estimates from all angles. I've no illusions about living comfortably in any way but should I expect to be completely drowning financially for ten years?? Is further input to be heard from current or, more specifically, recently qualified Grad Meds????

Roger_that

TheyAreComing wrote: »

Hey guys, getting back on topic I've been perusing these pages the last day or so and have to say some of you have really done a good job in scaring the absolute sh!t out of me. I'm due to start in GEM in UCD this September and currently having the AIB GEM Loan processed. This thread has really frightened me and considering GEM is something I've been working toward the last couple years I'm extremely disheartened and worried at the minute. Pretty much be on my own financially so I'll be relying on the loan a fair bit, to cover the fees at the very least. I'd heard things were getting bad as regards overtime etc but is it all as fatalistic as some are making out? Would you consider repayment of this loan completely out of the realms of earnings over say ten years following graduation?? I'm getting quotes of figures and estimates from all angles. I've no illusions about living comfortably in any way but should I expect to be completely drowning financially for ten years?? Is further input to be heard from current or, more specifically, recently qualified Grad Meds????

Yeah definitely... I'd love to hear from some currently working GEM students who availed of the loan and how they're managing the repayments. As they say the proof is in the pudding. I think though if money isn't that important to you and you really love medicine that no matter what, it'll be worth it. Plenty of people spend their whole lives doing something they don't like... thats how I see it

trishx

To all who want to do graduate medicine in Ireland- think about going to the UK.First off, I believe the NHS pays the tuition fee for graduate medicine for the 2nd,3rd & final year while you have to pay the first year which I believe will be 9000 pound in 2012.Secondly,In the Uk the system is a lot more efficent.You take out a student tuition fee loan and you don't have to pay it back until you are earning a good salalry..In Ireland should you take out a student loan you are expected to pay it back regardless of how much money you earn even if you are earning minimum wage.They have no problem giving the money out but they have a problem when you can't meet the monthly repayments like I couldn't in my final year of college which resulted in bad credit.Its awful.So I suggest you go to the UK as their system makes a lot more sense.
Trish

jimdeans

Roger_that wrote: »

Yeah definitely... I'd love to hear from some currently working GEM students who availed of the loan and how they're managing the repayments. As they say the proof is in the pudding. I think though if money isn't that important to you and you really love medicine that no matter what, it'll be worth it. Plenty of people spend their whole lives doing something they don't like... thats how I see it

Hello.

I can't offer an opinion straight from the horse's mouth, as I'm not even a doctor. And for some people on here that makes what I have to say invalid. But I've been living with my doctor partner since she qualified 6 years ago, so I can give an insight into the financial side of it, as I assume the grad entry people will be earning the same money. We were lucky that, with studentships, we had no debt from uni, so I don't have that kind of experience.

What I would say is that if she had to pay back 120k (which it could well be with the interest) within 10 years of graduating on her own, that would be a nightmare. She could do it, but quality of life would be nothing compared to what we have now.

Having said that, I earn roughly the same as she does. And if we had those kinds of repayments for just her, we could manage it more comfortably. I think we'd still be renting, for example, which would be no big deal. And we're planning to start a family in the next 2 years, so she'll be taking a lot of time off work and probably going back part-time. So I'm not convinced that would be possible (well it would definitely be possible, but it would be uncomfortable) if she had a major loan like that.

A lot of the medics I know end up marrying other medics. If they had a 200k loan between them, that would be pretty bad too.

So, I think if you end up with a professional partner, as most medics will, then the repayments will be do-able, but it's not going to be easy to get a mortgage or take mat leave for extended periods. Plus you'd need to live a bit frugally.

The only other thing I would say is not to underestimate how much a decent quality of life outside medicine can help you to cope with the job's demands. After a horrible week of 36 hour shifts I'll often surprise the missus with a weekend away, or dinner at a fancy restaurant, or she'll indulge in some retail therapy. That sounds materialistic, but it really helps her to stay positive and it really helps us reconnect after not seeing each other for ages, except when she's getting up in the morning or coming in and going straight to bed.

That is probably not much help, but it's just my opinion from looking at our finances.

jenga-jen

Roger_that wrote: »

Yeah definitely... I'd love to hear from some currently working GEM students who availed of the loan and how they're managing the repayments. As they say the proof is in the pudding. I think though if money isn't that important to you and you really love medicine that no matter what, it'll be worth it. Plenty of people spend their whole lives doing something they don't like... thats how I see it

The graduate programme has only really started to churn out qualified students this year and last year iirc in Ireland. So it might be a while before we see what happens here wrt repayment.

We're all anxiously waiting to see what happens when they start working!!

TheyAreComing

Thanks for responses guys, just feel there is a massive difference from person to person as regards whats considered uncomfortable and whats considered drowning, i.e. repayments causing you to dip below any reasonable sort of living wage. How likely is this?

I've accepted that I'll be quite a bit behind my peers in terms of lifestyle, mortgages etc but ten+ years of struggling with rent and Koka Noodle dinners at that age scares the crap out of me. As has been pointed out money can help with the stressful work life but I'd settle for a simple enough life outside work. At the moment I'm losing sleep over this. Honestly, I'm really wondering whether I should dive onto the sh!tstorm headfirst or run away (from my dream career no less) while I still have the chance!

j.mcdrmd

TheyAreComing wrote: »

Thanks for responses guys, just feel there is a massive difference from person to person as regards whats considered uncomfortable and whats considered drowning, i.e. repayments causing you to dip below any reasonable sort of living wage. How likely is this?

I've accepted that I'll be quite a bit behind my peers in terms of lifestyle, mortgages etc but ten+ years of struggling with rent and Koka Noodle dinners at that age scares the crap out of me. As has been pointed out money can help with the stressful work life but I'd settle for a simple enough life outside work. At the moment I'm losing sleep over this. Honestly, I'm really wondering whether I should dive onto the sh!tstorm headfirst or run away (from my dream career no less) while I still have the chance!

Before anyone takes out a loan for anything, ever, they should start by being really honest with themselves. This can be surprisingly difficult to do, especially if all around are losing their heads. You saw this already with the housing bubble. In your current situation start by asking yourself the following questions and considering the answers carefully:-

What are the chances of me completing the course successfully?

How much will my future earnings be? This is really difficult to answer because nobody knows. If you examine the current contracts you would think that you should be ok, but the problem is that the contracts are not always being honored. Overtime is often not being paid, and you cannot refuse to work it because you will be too scared not to, your career can easily be ruined. You will also find yourself on emergency tax a lot.

Will I really be able to cope without resentment when I am more broke than some more senior but younger colleagues?

If things don't work out what is my exit position, ie how can I repay the loan from other resources? Again careful, because the contract would lead you to believe that you would have time to earn in a 2nd job but you are often forced to work horrendous hours. If you left medicine all together are you in a position to earn enough to pay back the loan.

Would I be better off repeating and going the undergrad route?

Would I be better off giving my current career a shot, earning some money and then deciding? Difficult one this as you have an offer now and you may not get an offer again.

Remember that the salary you see does not tell the full story, you will have lots of bills to pay just to be able to work.

Stay as calm as you can and consider your options, the reality is that people never know what the future will bring when they make difficult life decisions. All you can hope for is that you give the decision due thought and consideration, it tends to makes mistakes easier to deal with.

The very best of luck to you.

TheyAreComing

j.mcdrmd wrote: »

Before anyone takes out a loan for anything, ever, they should start by being really honest with themselves. This can be surprisingly difficult to do, especially if all around are losing their heads. You saw this already with the housing bubble. In your current situation start by asking yourself the following questions and considering the answers carefully:-

What are the chances of me completing the course successfully?

How much will my future earnings be? This is really difficult to answer because nobody knows. If you examine the current contracts you would think that you should be ok, but the problem is that the contracts are not always being honored. Overtime is often not being paid, and you cannot refuse to work it because you will be too scared not to, your career can easily be ruined. You will also find yourself on emergency tax a lot.

Will I really be able to cope without resentment when I am more broke than some more senior but younger colleagues?

If things don't work out what is my exit position, ie how can I repay the loan from other resources? Again careful, because the contract would lead you to believe that you would have time to earn in a 2nd job but you are often forced to work horrendous hours. If you left medicine all together are you in a position to earn enough to pay back the loan.

Would I be better off repeating and going the undergrad route?

Would I be better off giving my current career a shot, earning some money and then deciding? Difficult one this as you have an offer now and you may not get an offer again.

Remember that the salary you see does not tell the full story, you will have lots of bills to pay just to be able to work.

Stay as calm as you can and consider your options, the reality is that people never know what the future will bring when they make difficult life decisions. All you can hope for is that you give the decision due thought and consideration, it tends to makes mistakes easier to deal with.

The very best of luck to you.

I sincerely appreciate the thought and consideration here. My gut (thinking a loan this size in this climate is lunacy) is going against my head (doing what I've always wanted to do) and one can't get the better of the other, no matter how much I weigh it, no matter how calmly I consider it! Re the Leaving Cert: Having already completed a (government funded) degree I would have thought you'd be liable for the fees as a graduate (~€9000 x 5 years)??? A not insignificant saving of ~€10,000 on fees, but not game changing surely?

imported_guy

TheyAreComing wrote: »

I sincerely appreciate the thought and consideration here. My gut (thinking a loan this size in this climate is lunacy) is going against my head (doing what I've always wanted to do) and one can't get the better of the other, no matter how much I weigh it, no matter how calmly I consider it! Re the Leaving Cert: Having already completed a (government funded) degree I would have thought you'd be liable for the fees as a graduate (~€9000 x 5 years)??? A not insignificant saving of ~€10,000 on fees, but not game changing surely?

you have to also keep in mind, if you werent eligable for a grant before, you might be eligable for one now for the undergrad degree. and you certainly 100% wont be if you go the graduate route (no grants for graduate medicine) so you're on your own for living expenses etc

j.mcdrmd

TheyAreComing wrote: »

My gut (thinking a loan this size in this climate is lunacy) is going against my head (doing what I've always wanted to do)! Re the Leaving Cert: Having already completed a (government funded) degree I would have thought you'd be liable for the fees as a graduate (~€9000 x 5 years)??? A not insignificant saving of ~€10,000 on fees, but not game changing surely?

My gut agrees with yours, my head says it is not fair that you would be fine if you had someone to pay the bills.

The leaving cert option would cost a bit less but it would buy you time for making the decision and you could hopefully earn some money in the meantime, like a deposit on a house.

I started posting here because I was (still am) shocked at how Nchd's are treated. That was about a year ago, I got a lot of good advice on here then and have learned a lot, maybe if you check that out it would help.

drrkpd

To help people to advise on these loans-

What is the interest rate being offered on GEM loans?

Is it fixed or variable??

The UK student loans are as a previous posting only at just above inflation rate and you only pay when you earn more than 15,000/year so UK graduate route is worth considering for future graduates but there may be living expenses to factor in if you already live in Dublin or Limerick

imported_guy

drrkpd wrote: »

To help people to advise on these loans-

What is the interest rate being offered on GEM loans?

Is it fixed or variable??

The UK student loans are as a previous posting only at just above inflation rate and you only pay when you earn more than 15,000/year so UK graduate route is worth considering for future graduates but there may be living expenses to factor in if you already live in Dublin or Limerick

someone posted it earlier in this thread i'll see if i can find it, i think it was stated as 4.(something)% for first 4 years and 7.(something)% for the next 10 years.

j.mcdrmd

drrkpd wrote: »

To help people to advise on these loans-

What is the interest rate being offered on GEM loans?

Is it fixed or variable??

The UK student loans are as a previous posting only at just above inflation rate and you only pay when you earn more than 15,000/year so UK graduate route is worth considering for future graduates but there may be living expenses to factor in if you already live in Dublin or Limerick

The interest rate is only important when you are certain that you can pay back the principal.

Roger_that

imported_guy wrote: »

someone posted it earlier in this thread i'll see if i can find it, i think it was stated as 4.(something)% for first 4 years and 7.(something)% for the next 10 years.

By my very rough calculation that's between €180,000 and €200,000 to repay over a total of 14 yrs. That is insane. I want to do medicine more than anything but I think I'd delay it for 2 or 3 years and save like crazy because basically every €1000 you save, saves you ~€2,000 in repayments. I could be totally off there but I think its about right. That's a shocking price for a medical degree considering the state of flux we're currently in. In any situation really. Do the bank hide the total repayments on you? A guy at the UCD open day last year said the bank took his first repayment off him by accident in his first year of the course and it was €1,700 a month. CRAZY!!

bubbleking

based on the figures we've been given (this is a very rough guide by the way assuming you take the full 100k or 25k a year)

cost of the loan after

year 1; €1125
year 2; €2250
year 3; €3375
year 4; €4500

total amount we have to repay when we graduate €111,250. This isnt exactly accurate like I said its a rough guide. Interest on that amount is about 7k a year and will drop bit by bit as you pay it back. So in your intern year if you can manage to payback 18k which is optimistic to say the least you'll have just cleared the interest on your 4 year GEM loan.

Now you have 100k to pay back with interest at 6700. another 23k in repayments (assuming a small bump in wages as an SHO) will get your loan amount down to 84k. At this stage you will have paid 25k in interest alone :eek:

2nd year SHO - your loan now costs 5600 a year and repeat the cycle blah blah blah

Now lets look at just borrowing for the fees

cost of the loan after

year 1; €630
year 2; €1260
year 3; €1890
year 4; €2520

now the total cost of your loan is €62300. interest on that amount is €4174 a year.

Based on the calculations made above re similar repayment types as a 2nd year SHO you will now have a loan of 28k after paying 17k in interest only costing you 2k a year

cliff notes

as a 2nd year SHO you will have;

84k loan costing 5500 having paid 25k in interest
or
28k loan costing 2k having paid 17k in interest

My advice - try and work at the weekends if possible and definitely during the summer for 1st and 2nd year. Keep the loan as low as possible and it will make some difference

jimdeans

bubbleking wrote: »

based on the figures we've been given (this is a very rough guide by the way assuming you take the full 100k or 25k a year)

cost of the loan after

year 1; €1125
year 2; €2250
year 3; €3375
year 4; €4500

total amount we have to repay when we graduate €111,250. This isnt exactly accurate like I said its a rough guide. Interest on that amount is about 7k a year and will drop bit by bit as you pay it back. So in your intern year if you can manage to payback 18k which is optimistic to say the least you'll have just cleared the interest on your 4 year GEM loan.

I'd say that, even with me working, there's no way we could have paid back 18k during my missus' intern year. I know you said it's optimistic. But I'd say it's more than optimistic.

I guess it can be done. But it would take some serious discipline.

dissed doc

Roger_that wrote: »

By my very rough calculation that's between €180,000 and €200,000 to repay over a total of 14 yrs. That is insane. I want to do medicine more than anything but I think I'd delay it for 2 or 3 years and save like crazy because basically every €1000 you save, saves you ~€2,000 in repayments. I could be totally off there but I think its about right. That's a shocking price for a medical degree considering the state of flux we're currently in. In any situation really. Do the bank hide the total repayments on you? A guy at the UCD open day last year said the bank took his first repayment off him by accident in his first year of the course and it was €1,700 a month. CRAZY!!

This is what I have been saying as well. This entire gradauet medicine loan business is a BUSINESS. It's a product, for sale.

Do it in europe, save a packet, enjoy being a doctor. We will end up being owned by some HMO in 10 years anyway.

del85

bubbleking wrote: »

based on the figures we've been given (this is a very rough guide by the way assuming you take the full 100k or 25k a year)

cost of the loan after

year 1; €1125
year 2; €2250
year 3; €3375
year 4; €4500

Hey,

Just wondering how the cost of loan was calculated?

Also, I was under the impression that interest doesnt accrue until after the 4 years?

bubbleking

del85 wrote: »

Hey,

Just wondering how the cost of loan was calculated?

Also, I was under the impression that interest doesnt accrue until after the 4 years?

year 1; €1125 = 4.5% of 25k
year 2; €2250 = 4.5% of 50k
year 3; €3375 = 4.5% of 75k
year 4; €4500 = 4.5% of 100k

like I said your not gonna draw down 25k in one go so its just a rough estimation but this is accounted for by the fact you will be paying 4.5% interest on 26125 in year 2 etc (the interest gets added onto the principal from year to year)

Interest is accruing all the time. the rate of which goes up as soon as we graduate

imported_guy

bubbleking wrote: »

year 1; €1125 = 4.5% of 25k
year 2; €2250 = 4.5% of 50k
year 3; €3375 = 4.5% of 75k
year 4; €4500 = 4.5% of 100k

like I said your not gonna draw down 25k in one go so its just a rough estimation but this is accounted for by the fact you will be paying 4.5% interest on 26125 in year 2 etc (the interest gets added onto the principal from year to year)

Interest is accruing all the time. the rate of which goes up as soon as we graduate

isnt the interest compounding?

bubbleking

imported_guy wrote: »

isnt the interest compounding?

it is yeah but I said its a rough guide and the figures are closer to compound interest rates based on the fact you wont be drawing down 25k in one go at the start of each year

drrkpd

j.mcdrmd wrote: »

The interest rate is only important when you are certain that you can pay back the principal.

Certainly this statement is true but there is a huge differencebetween interest rates same as inflation(UK student loans) and interest rates of 4 to 7%!!!

j.mcdrmd

drrkpd wrote: »

Certainly this statement is true but there is a huge differencebetween interest rates same as inflation(UK student loans) and interest rates of 4 to 7%!!!

You are correct of course. I was trying to answer someone who was trying to make the decision about taking on a huge financial hit to do a course. Maybe this example will explain it better. If I was buying a car my 1st decision would be, is the car worth it for the price on offer. The 2nd decision would be which is the best loan available.

When dealing with complex decisions I find it much easier to break the problem down to manageable bits and then deal with each bit at a time.

drrkpd

Thanks agree with your argument. The major decision is of course can you repay the capital.The first question then is a medical degree worth 96,000 euros-14,000 fees plus 10,000 living IF away from home all by 4 years????? Interest on top just adds to the burden and clearly the less you borrow the easier it is but the central question remains.

imported_guy

I also assume the only way interest rates can go is up, since ECB is already holding the interest rates at zero? so if economy improves by some miracle the ECB will increase the interest rates, and i guess so will the banks?

drrkpd

this thread-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056259631

is a bit depressing about the prospects for biomedical graduates-perhaps that is why medicine becomes attractive even with loans???

imported_guy

drrkpd wrote: »

this thread-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056259631

is a bit depressing about the prospects for biomedical graduates-perhaps that is why medicine becomes attractive even with loans???

lol the amount of bio med grad in medicine is miniscule, theres way more lawyers and arts graduates and engineers.

Annaroberts22

Hey :-) Just wondering how you got on sorting out your GEM loan and also how is have the first few weeks of the course gone for you? Just hoping to get an idea of another british student's experience of the whole thing. I hope your loan went through okay!!

just-joe

Hey there, is it possible to contact the people who deal with the GEM loans via email? I have some questions I would like to ask. If anyone could post or PM me details for the banks who offer GEM loans that would be great. Thanks!

Perhaps I will just ask here too. Did many people absorb loans into their GEM loan package? Did anyone get refused?

ciara84

just-joe wrote: »

Hey there, is it possible to contact the people who deal with the GEM loans via email? I have some questions I would like to ask. If anyone could post or PM me details for the banks who offer GEM loans that would be great. Thanks! Perhaps I will just ask here too. Did many people absorb loans into their GEM loan package? Did anyone get refused?

Hey! I made a thread here last year, I had a loan from my previous MBA (about 30,000) had paid back some of it but I got refused so had to borrow from parents.... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056352971