Recession is over - stop beating the beards

rumour

And that is nothing compared to what they are at now. Infact they've printed so much money all it is doing is feeding asset inflation on the markets.

But the tidal waves of new money have to wash up somewhere, all this cash can do is devalue wealth measured in dollars, euro's and sterling. Cheap way of paying the bills i guess but inflation looms and that means doubly high interest rates.

The headaches for the government are not gone yet.

ragg

no flamd your missing the point, the world has ended 10 times over this year and it will continue to end forever and ever :rolleyes:

Flamed Diving

ragg wrote: »

no flamd your missing the point, the world has ended 10 times over this year and it will continue to end forever and ever :rolleyes:

Ah, I should have known...

Dirk Gently

View wrote: »

Don't knock it. It worked in the post-Dot Com recession when the sales of Viagra produced by Pfizer (?) in Cork meant the economy didn't go into recession.

Right now, the headline international investors are reading is "Ireland out of recession" ....

I'm not knocking MNC's. I'm knocking the fact that our economy was pretty much based on MNC's , construction, and construction boom dependant services, easy credit and not really a whole lot else. Take away construction, the services decline and we're left with MNC's, which aren't in any way stable due to the fact that they're more of a travelling circus than solid home grown industry.

I'm glad mnc's are here providing good jobs but any or all can pull out at any time. It's a very shaky foundation to build an economy on.

brendansmith

MI5 wrote: »

Forgive me for thinking that a majority of people on this topic, seem to have a pathological tendancy, to look on the down side!!!!! It's pretty plain that there is some inkling of good news in the statistics. Not saying the recession is over, but there is some improvement in at least apart of the economy.
So, drop the bah humbug, mindset. Maybe the fact that you have all been gorging on a feast of public service meat, has effected your brains.

Lay off the public service for a while, take an early morning walk in the clear frosty air, look on the bright side, switch off the computers, leave Boards until 2010, dont read the Indo, selectively read the Times, have a few hot toddies, go easy on the turkey and come back nest year to a slightly brighter economic outlook.

Mise le meas.

MI5

This is how it works:

Everybody was enjoying the boom :rolleyes:
The the recession hit....but of course everyone apparently knew this was going to happen :rolleyes:
When news starts coming of the worst being over and Irelands is recovering everyone says that iys rubbish and thing will get worse :rolleyes:
When the economy recovers everyone will have known that was going to happen too down to the exact day :rolleyes:

People in Ireland know everything. always. Even if they say the opposite of what actually happens they still knew what was going to happen.

Amhran Nua

Flamed Diving wrote: »

At a decreasing rate since Q1. Perhaps you do not understand what this means. Think of a bright red car, driving very fast (200mph) at point w, then at point x (220mph) measure an increased rate of velocity, later we measure the velocity (190mph) at point y. We find that the car is still moving forward, but at a decreasing rate. We measure velocity (180mph) again at point z and find that the car is still moving forward, but at a decreasing rate.

Eh we can't run the country on MNCs alone, we haven't enough of them by any stretch of the imagination. If the economy is to return to a healthy state, we need to have something to replace the huge swathe that construction represented, and thus far the government has not produced any such ideas. The car might only be at 50mph by the time it hits the wall, but I still wouldn't want to be sitting in it.

So what will replace construction? And please don't say construction.

In addition the MNCs are being largely buoyed up by government stimulus plans in other countries, if the international economy isn't moving under its own steam by the time those run out, as md23040 quite correctly says, we're in deep trouble indeed.

Flamed Diving

brendansmith wrote: »

This is how it works:

Everybody was enjoying the boom :rolleyes:
The the recession hit....but of course everyone apparently knew this was going to happen :rolleyes:
When news starts coming of the worst being over and Irelands is recovering everyone says that iys rubbish and thing will get worse :rolleyes:
When the economy recovers everyone will have known that was going to happen too down to the exact day :rolleyes:

People in Ireland know everything. always. Even if they say the opposite of what actually happens they still knew what was going to happen.

I knew you were going to post that. :rolleyes:

Sleepy

Flamed Diving wrote: »

At a decreasing rate since Q1. Perhaps you do not understand what this means. Think of a bright red car, driving very fast (200mph) at point w, then at point x (220mph) measure an increased rate of velocity, later we measure the velocity (190mph) at point y. We find that the car is still moving forward, but at a decreasing rate. We measure velocity (180mph) again at point z and find that the car is still moving forward, but at a decreasing rate.

We began with a car travelling fast (economy falling), then travelling faster (economy falling, and faster), then slowing (economy still falling, but at slower rate) then slowing some more (you get the idea, I hope).

Understand now?

No need for the condescension. Your analogy is misleading. Economies don't grow or shrink at a consistent rate. They're not mechanical objects which obey laws of physics.

GNP is still falling, that it's falling at a slower rate than last quarter does not mean next quarter will see a slower fall. It may hint towards it, but it's far from a certainty (unlike your example of a car with it's brakes applied).

Fundamentally our economy is still in a very bad place. We have lots of unemployment (which is also still growing, though again at a decreasing rate), public services are costing us far too much compared to our tax revenues, we have no control over our monetary policy and our government isn't doing much (anything?) to get the unemployed back into the workforce.

The MNC's are a great thing for Ireland but Amhran Nua makes a very valid point, they can't all be relied on to still be here next year. We need home-grown industry producing goods and / or services which can be sold abroad. Have you seen anything from this government which suggests they're even trying to promote this?

I don't have the answers but I'm not going to cheer the emporer because he's managed to be wearing a string vest underneath his 'new clothes'.

egan007

We don't want to hear about this positive news grumble grumble.

If it was the other way around and we were in growth and just dropped into a .3% decline we'd all be Emigrating.

Sleepy

It's not that egan007, it's that we don't want the government (or the media) spinning a fairly small positive indicator into much more than it is. Statistical juggling won't improve things, action will.

Firefox10

Sleepy wrote: »

It's not that egan007, it's that we don't want the government (or the media) spinning a fairly small positive indicator into much more than it is. Statistical juggling won't improve things, action will.

I heard Mary Coughlan on the news yesterday and she said the government is being very cautious about the numbers. Any positive indication was to be welcomed. Gain Confidence and move forward.

Sleepy

Or examine the root cause for the positive indication, realise it's not a platform for sustainable growth and pursue better options?

Mary Coughlan can't even create a permanent job in the public sector by leaving her old post to do her current one one. Can we really rely on her to create new ones in the private sector?

irishcarbomb2k

I agree this is not fantastic news and we are relying on companies from MNC to stay here. This is really not where we want to be however there is hope. MNC's are an important contributor to the economy, not just for the simple fact they employ thousands of people but because of the off shoots. People working for Facebook, Google etc are working in some of the most profitable, forward thinking and technologically advanced companies in the world. They learn skills they can apply to set up business here.
We need these companies, not just for the revenue they produce but also the skills they can provide. Who knows that today some person is sitting in google at their desk and comes up with the next big thing!!
Don't forget, we do have indiginous industries. We have some of the best online games company's in the World and look at the success Havoc has had around the world. We are also one of the largest manufacturers of CD's in the world. (from a reliable source) We have the skills, we need people to take the risks. We need a thriving entrepenaural workforce. We need to review and change our bankruptcy laws that will allow people to take risks. If they pay off we could be extremely successful.
If I had my way I would incorporate the dept of transport and communications together and create a dept of transport and vital infrastructure. Make it law that anywhere in the country that is requiring sewage, water, roads, electricity etc, the moment a digger opens the ground, Fibre cable is also put down. We need advanced communications technology. BMW and Mercedes are launching broadband technology in their cars. In the US they have cars that when they are involved in an accident, if the driver does not respond, the car calls emergency services and has a GPS chip built in which in turn sends to the emergency services the exact location of the car. We can come up with innovative technologies like this. Look at google goggles. You put a poster in your business window with a barcode and when you point your android phone or iphone it will automatically update on your phone the business, contact details, and anything else you want to list. For example, if your a restaurant, you can post your up to date menu so people know what your offering by just pointing your phone. Think of the applications. The future is about this, creativity and technology and we can do it. We had the best authors, actors and musicians, we can do the same for technology and innovation. I really think we need to start thinking outside the box. Construction of houses is gone, lets close the book on it, learn and move on.
We made mistakes, get rid of the people who oversaw these and move on with the knowledge we cannot do it again. We should be cautious and we should know that this economy is very fragile but seriously, if you feel that its the end of the road, then it most likely will be, but if we think it will be better, then lets make it better. I have no affiliation to any political party, I used to be a director of a company and we had to close it down but you know what, I'm not phased. Lets get optimistic and make this the turning point. I'm personally really tired of listening to what could have been and blaming everyone. We have a 'democracy', we are not at war. I have lived in the US, I have lived in the UK and personally, there is no where else I'd rather live than here in Ireland despite the weather. Time for revolution.

Daithinski

View wrote: »

Right now, the headline international investors are reading is "Ireland out of recession" ....

Shít, I hope they don't stumble across boards.ie

We'd be rightly screwed then.

Update...



I think the international investors must read boards.ie after all. AIB's share price has fallen from 1.30 to about 1.08 in the last five days.

Flamed Diving

Sleepy wrote: »

No need for the condescension. Your analogy is misleading. Economies don't grow or shrink at a consistent rate. They're not mechanical objects which obey laws of physics.

GNP is still falling, that it's falling at a slower rate than last quarter does not mean next quarter will see a slower fall. It may hint towards it, but it's far from a certainty (unlike your example of a car with it's brakes applied).

*Groan*

Did you even look at the report, or did you just lazily read the Irish Times article and continued to mope about the place, blaming everyone? Both GDP and GNP have been falling at decreasing rates for two quarters in a row now.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/qna.pdf

As much as you would hate for this to happen, there does appear to be a trend towards a slowing in the fall, at least. All people want on this forum is failure, isn't it? It's actually depressing.

Sleepy wrote: »

Fundamentally our economy is still in a very bad place. We have lots of unemployment (which is also still growing, though again at a decreasing rate)

Unemployment always lags GDP/GNP figures. This is well known among people who have studied economics.

Sleepy wrote: »

public services are costing us far too much compared to our tax revenues

Do we not have a government who is addressing this? Did I miss something in the last budget? Yes, they could have gone further, perhaps they should have, but they are walking a tightrope with this thing. I would cut gradually, rather than big IMF-style slices.

Sleepy wrote: »

we have no control over our monetary policy

Why? So we could devalue? That's the new one, right? I have already dealt with this extensively on the McWilliams (ginger populist muppet) thread on this very topic, I suggest you read why that move would be suicidal there.

Sleepy wrote: »

and our government isn't doing much (anything?) to get the unemployed back into the workforce.

I'm not sure there is anything they can do, in this regard. They were moronic enough not to take the economic prescription, which is to save when the times are good, and spend when the times are bad. Some less educated people might say 'well, why aren't they spending now?!?', well unfortunately one must use the savings from the previous period to do this, unless you want to deficit spend your way out. This is all well and good, when you are able to pull it off, but we are clearly not in that place now. The best we can hope for is the world economy to recover, and FDI to start slushing around again, which seems very likely now.

Sleepy wrote: »

The MNC's are a great thing for Ireland but Amhran Nua makes a very valid point, they can't all be relied on to still be here next year. We need home-grown industry producing goods and / or services which can be sold abroad. Have you seen anything from this government which suggests they're even trying to promote this?

I am interested in hearing your suggestions on what Ireland could produce, and compete on a world market with, and could employ the 10s of thousands that you undoubtedly have in mind. AFAIK, Enterprise Ireland does provide grants for SMEs, and continue to do so, or at least until this year, when I was recently working one that was a recipient. They cannot afford to shelter large industries until they develop enough to compete (if ever), and besides, if they did that, you would be the first one on here complaining about these peoples "cushy jobs being protected while you have no protection". Me. Me. Me.

Sleepy wrote: »

I don't have the answers but I'm not going to cheer the emporer because he's managed to be wearing a string vest underneath his 'new clothes'.

I really hate those stupid little sayings. They are a poor substitute for coherent argument and an attempt to sound clever. I am unimpressed.

Flamed Diving

Sleepy wrote: »

Statistical juggling.

Translation: I don't understand it, therefore it must be wrong.

ardmacha

I think the international investors must read boards.ie after all. AIB's share price has fallen from 1.30 to about 1.08 in the last five days.

More likely they were listening to Patrick Honahan musing that they banks should take a bigger haircut on NAMA and that they would end up nationalised.

Amhran Nua

Firefox10 wrote: »

I heard Mary Coughlan on the news yesterday and she said the government is being very cautious about the numbers. Any positive indication was to be welcomed. Gain Confidence and move forward.

Move forward to what, it took till last Wednesday for the government to take any sort of action at all, the idea that they have some sort of a coherent vision for strong growth in Ireland or even a blind notion what they are doing is laughable, to put it mildly.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

As much as you would hate for this to happen, there does appear to be a trend towards a slowing in the fall, at least. All people want on this forum is failure, isn't it? It's actually depressing.

I had a post up there you didn't respond to, where exactly is economic growth going to come from now that construction is wiped out?

Flamed Diving

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eh we can't run the country on MNCs alone, we haven't enough of them by any stretch of the imagination. If the economy is to return to a healthy state, we need to have something to replace the huge swathe that construction represented, and thus far the government has not produced any such ideas. The car might only be at 50mph by the time it hits the wall, but I still wouldn't want to be sitting in it.

You are all fans of the journalistic style on this forum! Shame I have such disdain for media, as it seems most of you derive your knowledge from it.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So what will replace construction? And please don't say construction.

Construction.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

In addition the MNCs are being largely buoyed up by government stimulus plans in other countries, if the international economy isn't moving under its own steam by the time those run out, as md23040 quite correctly says, we're in deep trouble indeed.

Data to back this up please. I'm tired of these FACTssertions.

Flamed Diving

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I had a post up there you didn't respond to, where exactly is economic growth going to come from now that construction is wiped out?

As we can all tell by now, Ireland's true economic growth did not come from this sector, as this was driven by an asset bubble. It came from foreign direct investment and its spillover effects, back in the 1990s. So your question is a non sequiter.



Data from Penn World Tables. Y-variable = gdp/per capita relative to the US.

Flamed Diving

Not sure if this is the same data the CSO reported, but here is a graph I knocked together.

Idbatterim

Lads and Im not trying to be funny here or stir sh*t, but would alot of you not be of the mindset, that the worst possible thing to happen would be to come out of recession soon so that the serious issues dont have to be addressed? so that the goverment can keep on trying to please everyone and make a fudge as usual! If we come out of recession soon I highly doubt, the Government will reform the PS, which in my opinion as a taxpayer paying for the gravy train, is just a total disgrace! Nothing is ever going to be "FAIR" in life, but for years, the unions and PS workers wanted more money to do less work. I am self employed, and Im sure any of you reading this in the private sector experience this! I am running to stand still regarding the work! I work whatever hours I have to, constantly change and adapt and thats just to keep the door open! I think what gets up the private sector back is the absolute extremes between the 2 sectors and this is extremely understandable and hence the reason why their is such resentment towards the PS cloud cucoo land brigade! And the problem is that the extreme bad end is for those working their asses off to pay the Public SERVANTS!

Sleepy

Flamed Diving wrote: »

*Groan*

Did you even look at the report, or did you just lazily read the Irish Times article and continued to mope about the place, blaming everyone? Both GDP and GNP have been falling at decreasing rates for two quarters in a row now.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/qna.pdf

As much as you would hate for this to happen, there does appear to be a trend towards a slowing in the fall, at least. All people want on this forum is failure, isn't it? It's actually depressing.

A slow fall is still a fall. It's not a return to growth. When we have two quarters of growth, I'll start to get optimistic.

Unemployment always lags GDP/GNP figures. This is well known among people who have studied economics.

I'm well aware of that. And fwiw, I've studied economics at leaving cert and undergraduate level. I don't claim to be an expert but I'm not a complete moron either, nor do I feel the need to try and belittle you in order to discuss this with you.

Do we not have a government who is addressing this? Did I miss something in the last budget? Yes, they could have gone further, perhaps they should have, but they are walking a tightrope with this thing. I would cut gradually, rather than big IMF-style slices.

Did I suggest they should have? No. We have a government that allowed this situation to come to being and instead of just telling the unions to take a flying jump and *fixing* the public sector, they just lobbed a percentage off the top of the wage bill. Where's the incentive for workers to perform when they get treated the same as the laziest idiot in the service?

Why? So we could devalue? That's the new one, right? I have already dealt with this extensively on the McWilliams (ginger populist muppet) thread on this very topic, I suggest you read why that move would be suicidal there.

TBH, I didn't bother reading it or looking much at the possibility due to the fact that it can't be done.

[QUOTE}I'm not sure there is anything they can do, in this regard. They were moronic enough not to take the economic prescription, which is to save when the times are good, and spend when the times are bad. Some less educated people might say 'well, why aren't they spending now?!?', well unfortunately one must use the savings from the previous period to do this, unless you want to deficit spend your way out. This is all well and good, when you are able to pull it off, but we are clearly not in that place now. The best we can hope for is the world economy to recover, and FDI to start slushing around again, which seems very likely now.[/QUOTE]
Which leaves us entirely dependent on the FDI in a country with a high cost base.

I am interested in hearing your suggestions on what Ireland could produce, and compete on a world market with, and could employ the 10s of thousands that you undoubtedly have in mind. AFAIK, Enterprise Ireland does provide grants for SMEs, and continue to do so, or at least until this year, when I was recently working one that was a recipient. They cannot afford to shelter large industries until they develop enough to compete (if ever), and besides, if they did that, you would be the first one on here complaining about these peoples "cushy jobs being protected while you have no protection". Me. Me. Me.

Please stop making assumptions as to my views on things.

What can we produce and compete in the world market in? From personal experience (having implemented an Irish developed system domestically and in 7 different countries) I know Irish software can compete on the global stage. Unfortunately for me, due to poor group management and an over-reliance on public sector contracts, the company I was with are in serious trouble in other areas of their business and redundancies across the entire group were necessary. I got let go whilst still being a net contributor to the bottom line (my chargeable time less expenses was greater than the cost of my employment to the company).

I really hate those stupid little sayings. They are a poor substitute for coherent argument and an attempt to sound clever. I am unimpressed.

And putting words in the mouth of the person you're discussing something with, whilst doing your best impersonation of an exasperated Irish mammy is something to be impressed with? :rolleyes:

I'll stick to trying to keep a sense of humour with my metaphors thanks.

Amhran Nua

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You are all fans of the journalistic style on this forum! Shame I have such disdain for media, as it seems most of you derive your knowledge from it.

A swing and a miss.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Construction.

And have you any idea what an utterly destructive turn of events that would be, seeing as we haven't a notion of getting the banks out in one piece after the last shambles, plus overhang etc etc.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Data to back this up please. I'm tired of these FACTssertions.

German exports versus import balance is skewed towards imports which works out well for us, from a largely export based economy, yet somehow they have still managed to make their way out of recession (note that most growth was from "investment"). Meanwhile Germany is still pumping large sums of money into their economy in stimulus funds.
Chinese exports down, and they make the cheap stuff, which their own ministers predict won't recover till 2011, yet their economy is still growing apparently.
Its hardly worth going into the USA and Japan, since that's fairly common knowledge.

The picture this paints is clear - when economies are growing at the same time as their main source of income is falling, the growth must be coming from somewhere else. In this case, its stimulus programs, which suits the MNCs very well as our own incongruous bump in exports during the summer displayed.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

As we can all tell by now, Ireland's true economic growth did not come from this sector, as this was driven by an asset bubble. It came from foreign direct investment and its spillover effects, back in the 1990s. So your question is a non sequiter.

Its almost the 2010s now, things have changed somewhat since the 1990s. Check out a graph from 2000 to 2009 for somewhat more current economic data. Also your focus on MNCs is not an accurate assessment of economic growth as they repatriate their profits.

Or, to look at it another way, you can tell everyone who has lost their jobs in construction and the enormous number of related industries how its all okay because the graph says so.

Flamed Diving

Sleepy wrote: »

A slow fall is still a fall. It's not a return to growth. When we have two quarters of growth, I'll start to get optimistic.

I never said it was a return to growth, but it is slowing earlier than I expected.

Sleepy wrote: »

Did I suggest they should have? No. We have a government that allowed this situation to come to being and instead of just telling the unions to take a flying jump and *fixing* the public sector, they just lobbed a percentage off the top of the wage bill. Where's the incentive for workers to perform when they get treated the same as the laziest idiot in the service?

The PS does seem to need reform, but simply saying this does not impress bond markets, and for this short time, we need access to them, as do we need to show the European Commission and ECB that we are taking solid measures of cut expenditure.

Sleepy wrote: »

TBH, I didn't bother reading it or looking much at the possibility due to the fact that it can't be done.

Even if it could, we wouldn't do it. Small open economies should not float their currencies and they definitely should not devalue them.

Sleepy wrote: »

Which leaves us entirely dependent on the FDI in a country with a high cost base.

Entirely? Sorry, but you are going to have to be reasonable and come back to reality.

Sleepy wrote: »

What can we produce and compete in the world market in? From personal experience (having implemented an Irish developed system domestically and in 7 different countries) I know Irish software can compete on the global stage. Unfortunately for me, due to poor group management and an over-reliance on public sector contracts, the company I was with are in serious trouble in other areas of their business and redundancies across the entire group were necessary. I got let go whilst still being a net contributor to the bottom line (my chargeable time less expenses was greater than the cost of my employment to the company).

Yes, services which are not capital intensive are something that Ireland can produce the goods at. Now, if I were you I would probably say something like:

Which leaves us entirely dependent on Irish software in a country with a high cost base.

but I don't deal in extremes. I see the future where we must still encourage FDI, while developing further our own international services. You could liken it to hedging our bets, however, given Ireland's size and openness, we will always be subject to outside forces. No matter how good our economic policy.

Amhran Nua

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I am interested in hearing your suggestions on what Ireland could produce, and compete on a world market with, and could employ the 10s of thousands that you undoubtedly have in mind. AFAIK, Enterprise Ireland does provide grants for SMEs, and continue to do so, or at least until this year, when I was recently working one that was a recipient.

EI provides grants for an extremely narrow spectrum of companies, and is directed towards existing companies that want to get bigger, as such it doesn't do much to aid startup or indigenous enterprise. The city and county enterprise boards do even less, having very few funds or means available.

As for what we can do, what can't we do. Denmark has 4 billion in annual exports from wind turbine related industries, and employs your tens of thousands into the bargain - what makes them so different from us, except for the buffoons we have in government? They can't keep up with the demand. And thats just one potential area out of thousands.

Flamed Diving

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You are all fans of the journalistic style on this forum! Shame I have such disdain for media, as it seems most of you derive your knowledge from it.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

A swing and a miss.

And yet you go on to provide me with nothing but news articles.

FAIL.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And have you any idea what an utterly destructive turn of events that would be, seeing as we haven't a notion of getting the banks out in one piece after the last shambles, plus overhang etc etc.

Turn your sarcasm detector on.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

German exports versus import balance is skewed towards imports which works out well for us, from a largely export based economy, yet somehow they have still managed to make their way out of recession (note that most growth was from "investment"). Meanwhile Germany is still pumping large sums of money into their economy in stimulus funds.
Chinese exports down, and they make the cheap stuff, which their own ministers predict won't recover till 2011, yet their economy is still growing apparently.
Its hardly worth going into the USA and Japan, since that's fairly common knowledge.

Actually, going into the Japanese case would have been the most important one for you to make any useful inferences, instead you prefer to speculate and make haunting comments. Wooooooo.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its almost the 2010s now, things have changed somewhat since the 1990s. Check out a graph from 2000 to 2009 for somewhat more current economic data.

Now, that is truely a "swing and a miss".

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Also your focus on MNCs is not an accurate assessment of economic growth as they repatriate their profits.

Gee, Economics 101. Your knowledge knows no end...

You gotta love how you assume that I don't know how a basic economic model is broken down...

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Or, to look at it another way, you can tell everyone who has lost their jobs in construction and the enormous number of related industries how its all okay because the graph says so.

And the emotional plea to top it off. Beautiful. Try remember what I said about "lags" above, and have a nice sandwich for yourself.

Flamed Diving

Amhran Nua wrote: »

EI provides grants for an extremely narrow spectrum of companies, and is directed towards existing companies that want to get bigger, as such it doesn't do much to aid startup or indigenous enterprise. The city and county enterprise boards do even less, having very few funds or means available.

As for what we can do, what can't we do. Denmark has 4 billion in annual exports from wind turbine related industries, and employs your tens of thousands into the bargain - what makes them so different from us, except for the buffoons we have in government? They can't keep up with the demand. And thats just one potential area out of thousands.

Once again. I am not interested in FACTssertions.

Dirk Gently

woops,

sorry wrong thread.

Amhran Nua

Flamed Diving wrote: »

And yet you go on to provide me with nothing but news articles.

FAIL.

If you would do us a favour and point out where the articles are factually incorrect, that would be great.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Turn your sarcasm detector on.

Its not called the lowest form of wit for nothing.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Actually, going into the Japanese case would have been the most important one for you to make any useful inferences, instead you prefer to speculate and make haunting comments. Wooooooo.

I could link to more newspaper articles, detailing the month on month fall in Japanese exports, or the $82 billion stimulus package, but that wouldn't interest you.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Now, that is truely a "swing and a miss".

So you're telling us that the growth from about 2001 onwards was entirely due to MNCs... I see.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Gee, Economics 101. Your knowledge knows no end...

You gotta love how you assume that I don't know how a basic economic model is broken down...

I'm trying to work out the relevance here?

Flamed Diving wrote: »

And the emotional plea to top it off. Beautiful. Try remember what I said about "lags" above, and have a nice sandwich for yourself.

You have still failed to tell us all where this growth is going to come from, instead apparently getting ever more agitated as your assertions are systematically deconstructed. Lets try to keep it cordial.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Once again. I am not interested in FACTssertions.

Heh.